103 replies to this topic

[Purlana]

Warge, on 24 July 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

As if now there is no grind.

There is only a grind at the very start, after you reach a point there is no grind (Unless you count leveling a mech variant). R&R won't fix that, it will just make the initial grind longer. (Once you start using your first non-trial mech)

Edited by Purlana, 24 July 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[Warge]

Purlana, on 24 July 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

There is only a grind at the very start, after you reach a point there is no grind (Unless you count leveling a mech variant).

Exactly leveling Mech takes most of my time. And to buy new Mech - also grind. And after that - grinding for modules.

[soarra]

Telemetry, on 24 July 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Explain. In what ways will suffering occur? And, how many players have hundreds of millions of c-bills laying around? I bet very few so it's a non-issue. And....didn't they earn them? What's wrong with having earned an advantage? Nothing!

most players i know who have been around since the final reset have been sitting over 100mill plus for a long time

[Koniving]

Ph30nix, on 24 July 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

whoa WTF were the income #'s back when R&R was around?

if im making 3mil bills per match and mechs are at their current costs id have zero problem keeping my mechs up and running and supplied......

im thinking you put an extra zero in there?

No. I didn't. The income wasn't much. It was what I did during a match.

Sit back with an LRM boat team. They fire missiles, I point out a target with just targeting them.
2,500 * 8 (I got it for myself, too) = 20,000 .
If everyone fires exactly once on each target, that's 20,000 * 8 victims. 160,000.
It took an average of 4 or 5 salvos from each player to kill each mech (as most of them missed back then).
Assuming 4 salvos from each player, against each victim. 640,000 from just the LRM spotting assist.
Then you add in kill assists which paid in the 15,000 each. 760,000.

Of course depending on how fast the enemy is it'd take more LRMS. It always did. But we won't factor that.

Though this is not even throwing in my tag bonuses, which are also 2,500 each, each time people fired missiles. So that's another 640,000 on top of the 760,000. That's 1,400,000.

Then add in damage (LRMs did a lot of damage at the time, exponential damage as it took 1.9 per LRM and then multiplied it to deal damages in the 18 or so per missile).

At the time LRMs rarely hit despite how fast they were. Simply powering down, powering up, and moving was all you had to do to break a lock that could not be reacquired. They looked like this at 1:39 in. Note: At the time you could not dumbfire LRMs (they'd just go straight with no guidance like a shotgun), so the only way for them to have any behavior at all is to have a lock on. That dodge -- simple as it was -- was while locked on by the LRMs.

Then component destruction. Then salvage, which paid a LOT more at the time when the engines remained intact. At the time people complained of LRMs going for your cockpit.

By the time you're done that's anywhere between 1,900,000 and 3,000,000 (which was honestly just the high point).

Like I said. Scouting really paid back then.

Edit: Added video about why it took so many LRMs to take out an enemy.

Edited by Koniving, 24 July 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[Woozle]

Oh, how I wish.

The sad fact is that since PGI chose to do F2P, it has completely watered down the heritage from the BattleTech universe.

A friend of mine who plays and I had a conversation about this the other day. We both have played TT and all the various MechWarrior titles.

In the original BattleTech universe, and most of the video games, mech warriors were elite warriors and mechs were rare and expensive. Contrast that with MW:O, where people who have never piloted a mech before are given an Atlas. Kerensky must be rotating in his grave at several thousand RPM!

I would like a game where seeing someone in an Atlas made you clench, not because the mech is powerful, but because you knew the pilot had earned it the hard way.

A large part of the thrill of winning battles in previous MechWarrior titles was salvaging stuff. Getting rare mech chassis and weapons systems that were not available in the marketplace was great. You really had to work and have a bit of luck to kit out your ultimate mech. And oh the horror of having a mech wrecked! Again, contrast with MW:O. I can lose every single match I ever play, and all it takes is time to earn enough money to afford whatever I want. Everything is always available.

Oh, to have a game where winning actually means something and people have to take care of their mechs and weapons or risk losing them and not being able to replace them. Alas, PGI has followed the path where everyone get money for nothing and the mechs are free.

[Ozric]

Stop suggesting this terrible idea! R&R will only ever work if we get some more sim with our first person shooter, which we may never do. Bad for newbies, easy to circumvent for pugstompers and vets. Pointless.

[Purlana]

Woozle, on 24 July 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

Oh, to have a game where winning actually means something and people have to take care of their mechs and weapons or risk losing them and not being able to replace them.

People didn't really take care of their mechs when we had R&R, what's the difference between open beta and now? If you are worried about all the assults, a tonnage cap per team would be better.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Koniving, on 24 July 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

No. I didn't. The income wasn't much. It was what I did during a match.

Sit back with an LRM boat team. They fire missiles, I point out a target with just targeting them.
2,500 * 8 (I got it for myself, too) = 20,000 .
If everyone fires exactly once on each target, that's 20,000 * 8 victims. 160,000.
It took an average of 4 or 5 salvos from each player to kill each mech (as most of them missed back then).
Assuming 4 salvos from each player, against each victim. 640,000 from just the LRM spotting assist.
Then you add in kill assists which paid in the 15,000 each. 760,000.

Of course depending on how fast the enemy is it'd take more LRMS. It always did. But we won't factor that.

Though this is not even throwing in my tag bonuses, which are also 2,500 each, each time people fired missiles. So that's another 640,000 on top of the 760,000. That's 1,400,000.

Then add in damage (LRMs did a lot of damage at the time, exponential damage as it took 1.9 per LRM and then multiplied it to deal damages in the 18 or so per missile).

At the time LRMs rarely hit despite how fast they were. Simply powering down, powering up, and moving was all you had to do to break a lock that could not be reacquired. They looked like this at 1:39 in. Note: At the time you could not dumbfire LRMs (they'd just go straight with no guidance like a shotgun), so the only way for them to have any behavior at all is to have a lock on. That dodge -- simple as it was -- was while locked on by the LRMs.

Then component destruction. Then salvage, which paid a LOT more at the time when the engines remained intact. At the time people complained of LRMs going for your cockpit.

By the time you're done that's anywhere between 1,900,000 and 3,000,000 (which was honestly just the high point).

Like I said. Scouting really paid back then.

Edit: Added video about why it took so many LRMs to take out an enemy.

You have too many zeroes in your equations since I've never seen anything like you've talked about. The highest I've seen for each category is in the tens of thousands while the repair and rearms was in the hundreds of thousands.

[Koniving]

James The Fox Dixon, on 24 July 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

You have too many zeroes in your equations since I've never seen anything like you've talked about. The highest I've seen for each category is in the tens of thousands while the repair and rearms was in the hundreds of thousands.

Simple math. 2,500 was the spotting assist. 2,500 on top of that was the tag assist. I spotted, and we had a team of 8 LRM boats (to include my commando). That's 20,000 cbills every time we fired, once every 2 seconds. Regardless of hit or miss. That alone is enough to make that possible.

[Livebait]

IMO there are 2 things that never should have been removed after closed beta...R&R and collision.

[Koniving]

Ozric, on 24 July 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Stop suggesting this terrible idea! R&R will only ever work if we get some more sim with our first person shooter, which we may never do. Bad for newbies, easy to circumvent for pugstompers and vets. Pointless.

Had a solution for that. New? Faction or lonewolf member? It's free so long as you don't have upgrades (newbies don't have upgrades) or more than 4 tons of ammo for each weapon type (So you could have 4 tons AC/2, 4 tons AC/5, 4 tons LRM at the same time and still have no charge) (they'd learn pretty quick). Details on page two or below for convenience.

Spoiler

Koniving, on 24 July 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

In response to repair and rearm... There was a solution that some of us came up with some time ago.

As a lone wolf volunteering for the army or as a member of a faction, the military you are serving covers x amount of your repair and rearm (if not the entire thing) up until the upgrades. For example destroyed double heatsinks, endo steel, xl engine, etc. you'd have to repair yourself (which by themselves isn't much but it's enough to notice). Your typical soldier is paid well enough to fight but largely supported by his or her faction. They supply up to 4 tons of any kind of ammo, the maintenance, the replacements all free of charge to you. But most of the army's mechs are not upgraded so extensively, and so if you want your repair and rearm to be free... standard engine, standard heatsinks, no endo, no more than 4 tons of ammunition for any particular weapon (typical canon for most mechs is 1 to 2 tons per weapon). Since Ferro is supposed to be significantly cheaper than Endo and was during R&R, it'd be more practical as a low cost way to get a few extra tons.

So as long as you don't run upgrades or more than 4 tons of ammo for each weapon type, you'll never have a repair or rearm bill.

Still, you're entitled to nothing if you suicide or fail to contribute to the fight in some way. Zero income, zero repairs, etc., as punishment for botting. (Though in the case of disconnects, any damage delivered to your mech is not charged to you either that way you gain nothing but you lose nothing ultimately defeating the purpose of just existing in a match).

So:

• Faction Members / Lone Wolves receive the current income as we all do now.
  
• Repair and rearm for faction members and lone wolves are free for the most part.
  
• Repairs associated with upgraded mechs -- DHS, Endo, Ferro, Artemis, XL -- cost a fraction of the upgrade price. (Obviously Endo would thusly cost more than Ferro in regards to repairs). (XL is not cheap to repair).
  
• ​Ammunition is free for the first 4 tons of each weapon type per match. Any ammunition beyond the first 4 tons of each weapon type costs a percentage of the original ammo cost or perhaps the full ammo cost. Not sure yet.

-----


But what about those wanting a hardcore experience or Mercs?

Meanwhile for those wanting a hardcore mode as PGI said they were considering, join a mercenary corporation. Mercs are always paid better than your average grunts. Descriptions from Bryan Ekman implied that the more planets your merc group holds, the more income you receive. We need a way to sink that income. How shall we do that? Simple. When have you ever known a mercenary company to take responsibility for the repairs and ammo of your machine as an employee of theirs? 100% of it comes directly out of your pay. After all you're receiving a lot more pay than the average soldier, you're rich and you can handle your expenses. Mercs who want to save up considerable amounts of cash will probably run cheaper builds.


Personally I had a Commando 2D before the ECM days. Without premium it made 3,000,000 cbills per match, and had a repair and rearm bill when destroyed of 16,000 to 28,000 cbills. It had 90 kph reverse running speed (faster than most forward running speeds at the time) and 2 LRM-5 racks. Because scouting paid really well at the time, I went ahead of the pack along the far edges of the map and picked out a target that no one else could see. I received 2,500 cbills every time someone fired LRMs, for every person who fired LRMs, at intervals of 2 seconds apart (so I'd get another 2,500 from each person when they fired LRMs 2 seconds later). Now that's income! With it, I could switch over to my Atlas and afford to do poorly.

So:

• Mercenaries receive considerably more income per match and per reward.
  
• This income is sunken at 50 to 100% repair and rearm cost versus original "resell" value of each item.
  
• No freebies.
  
• Larger merc groups with more territory can clearly afford to push out better mechs, but their financial losses will be devastating upon a crippling defeat versus that of a smaller group who has not funnelled everything into the top of the line technology. The risk of this will likely keep their builds hushed down a bit in terms of expense.
  
• If the unlikely case of high debt occurs, the Merc Corps player could go lone wolf with regular factions and regular pay for financial support to earn his or her way out of debt on the factions' wallet until confident enough to return to his higher paying, higher risk duties with his or her merc corp.

---




Note: So far as I could tell if the Clans are playable, they will be considered along the same lines of Merc Corps.

Edited by Koniving, 24 July 2013 - 12:31 PM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Koniving, on 24 July 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Simple math. 2,500 was the spotting assist. 2,500 on top of that was the tag assist. I spotted, and we had a team of 8 LRM boats (to include my commando). That's 20,000 cbills every time we fired, once every 2 seconds. Regardless of hit or miss. That alone is enough to make that possible.

That must have been before September of closed beta because I never saw it. I remember the numbers being lowered and you only got paid for hitting not for firing. The repair and rearms I remember is where it cost 54k per ton of SSRM, 27k for SRM and LRM, and 34k per for LRM/SRM+Artemis. Everything else was peanuts in comparison, including ferro-fibrous and the XL engine. I wish I still had the screenshots of my repair and rearm costs in comparison to my winnings as a non-founder since it would show that I lost 100-200k on a win since the repair and rearms literally ate up my winnings to put me in the hole by that much. I had a 98% win ratio in closed beta and early open beta with a kdr of 5:1.

[Woozle]

Purlana, on 24 July 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

People didn't really take care of their mechs when we had R&R, what's the difference between open beta and now? If you are worried about all the assults, a tonnage cap per team would be better.

I'm not worried about assaults - that's not the point. I just want a game with more flavor and more at stake. And people would take more care of their mechs if R&R wasn't simply a money sink. If a weapon or even an entire mech (!) could be destroyed beyond repair, you'd better believe people play differently.

[Purlana]

Woozle, on 24 July 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

If a weapon or even an entire mech (!) could be destroyed beyond repair, you'd better believe people play differently.

That would kill the game for many people. This is not EVE where we can farm PvE bots, so it's the worst idea ever.

If I wanted to play EVE, then thats what I would be playing...

Edited by Purlana, 24 July 2013 - 12:29 PM.

[Koniving]

James The Fox Dixon, on 24 July 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

That must have been before September of closed beta

It was to a point. June/July/August 2012. Back when there was directx 11, far better graphics, the concrete cracked under your mech when you fell over, and around when XL engines and DHS were first coming out. Only shortly after the engine limitations (before, anything could put up to a 400 engine in). We got paid for spotting for those who fired (including ourselves), but we were making money obscenely fast. Now the second someone else could physically see my target, I got absolutely nothing for lrms going to it. So I had to be the only one seeing that target.

Sometime in late August they made that change to you only get paid for hitting. After all commandos and jenners were insanely rich, and Atlas pilots were dirt poor.

[Woozle]

Purlana, on 24 July 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

That would kill the game for many people. This is not EVE where we can farm PvE bots, so it's the worst idea ever.

If I wanted to play EVE, then thats what I would be playing...

"Right now this is CoD in mechs, which kills the game for many people. This is not MechWarrior, where getting a better mech or better weapons means anything, so it's the worst idea ever.

If I wanted CoD, then that's what I would be playing."

Tell me, did this sway your opinion? Why not?

Listen...let's not start this whole downward spiral and end up in name-calling. My point was simply that there are people here who cut their teeth on table-top BattleTech and/or the old MechWarrior titles that would love this game to be a little more like that. We want a game where what we do in a battle matters. Where more than just pride is on the line. Where bad decisions can have lasting consequences and consistently good play brings rewards that can't also be had by someone who has never won a single battle.

[Purlana]

Woozle, on 24 July 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

"Right now this is CoD in mechs, which kills the game for many people. This is not MechWarrior, where getting a better mech or better weapons means anything, so it's the worst idea ever.

If I wanted CoD, then that's what I would be playing."

Tell me, did this sway your opinion? Why not?

Listen...let's not start this whole downward spiral and end up in name-calling. My point was simply that there are people here who cut their teeth on table-top BattleTech and/or the old MechWarrior titles that would love this game to be a little more like that. We want a game where what we do in a battle matters. Where more than just pride is on the line. Where bad decisions can have lasting consequences and consistently good play brings rewards that can't also be had by someone who has never won a single battle.

Then ask PGI for a hardcore mode? Most people would not like to see a mech they spent days working on destoryed after 1 battle...

See that hero mech you just bought? Sorry it got destroyed, please pay another $10. Thanks!

Edited by Purlana, 24 July 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[Jack Lowe]

Ozric, on 24 July 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Stop suggesting this terrible idea! R&R will only ever work if we get some more sim with our first person shooter, which we may never do. Bad for newbies, easy to circumvent for pugstompers and vets. Pointless.

So we stop suggesting this because we WANT to have nothing more than a sandbox death match style game? We don't want more sim and immersion in this game? Ok makes sense if that's your desire I totally understand your position. However if you want those things then we need to suggest and discuss these things so the devs. damn well know what we do want. I don't think R&R is a good idea in the current game environment either. It needs to work in conjunction with CW. The politics, economics, production capabilities and such of the Great Houses is what can make R&R functional. I saw a post earlier that mentioned how R&R costs would be mostly handled by the Merc. unit or Great House one was employed by. The pilot would simply see a reduction in his personal income. How much would depend on balancing other factors. Economics is in fact an important part of balance. People cry that DHS PPC's Guass rifles and such need to be nerfed or outright removed from the game because they break balance with other weapons. Horse pucky, these weapons ARE superior weapons, they are second generations advanced weaponry. They are suppose to be better than their older cousins. Just as the automatic rifle is superior to a bolt action in general battlefield use. The problem is availability, which leads to the arguments of certain weapons being useless or nearly so compared to another. That requires production capabilities, availability by faction or black market, and economics, CW. The success of a merc corp relies on it's ability to remain solvent and pay it's cover it's costs, buy replacement or new equipment and pay it's pilots. A house unit relies on it's house to provide supplies, upgrades, and new or replacement mechs. Considering how these overarching factors affect the core game we have now is very important. Deciding how much or how little and the best way to reasonably replicate the factors we desire is important. It's going to decide what type of MechWarrior game we have, more sim. or more FPS arena death match. I think James is only off base in the fact that he seems to want to apply R&R on individual players. Other than that he's right.... we do need this.

[Sir Ratburger]

I disagree and i shall say no more on the matter.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Jack Lowe, on 24 July 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

So we stop suggesting this because we WANT to have nothing more than a sandbox death match style game? We don't want more sim and immersion in this game? Ok makes sense if that's your desire I totally understand your position. However if you want those things then we need to suggest and discuss these things so the devs. damn well know what we do want. I don't think R&R is a good idea in the current game environment either. It needs to work in conjunction with CW. The politics, economics, production capabilities and such of the Great Houses is what can make R&R functional. I saw a post earlier that mentioned how R&R costs would be mostly handled by the Merc. unit or Great House one was employed by. The pilot would simply see a reduction in his personal income. How much would depend on balancing other factors. Economics is in fact an important part of balance. People cry that DHS PPC's Guass rifles and such need to be nerfed or outright removed from the game because they break balance with other weapons. Horse pucky, these weapons ARE superior weapons, they are second generations advanced weaponry. They are suppose to be better than their older cousins. Just as the automatic rifle is superior to a bolt action in general battlefield use. The problem is availability, which leads to the arguments of certain weapons being useless or nearly so compared to another. That requires production capabilities, availability by faction or black market, and economics, CW. The success of a merc corp relies on it's ability to remain solvent and pay it's cover it's costs, buy replacement or new equipment and pay it's pilots. A house unit relies on it's house to provide supplies, upgrades, and new or replacement mechs. Considering how these overarching factors affect the core game we have now is very important. Deciding how much or how little and the best way to reasonably replicate the factors we desire is important. It's going to decide what type of MechWarrior game we have, more sim. or more FPS arena death match. I think James is only off base in the fact that he seems to want to apply R&R on individual players. Other than that he's right.... we do need this.

I don't want it to apply to individual players. I'm totally against that. We spoke at length on the subject the past couple of days and we're on the same page when it comes to R&R being a function of CW. As it stands now, it doesn't make sense since it punishes the players as the rewards do not scale to cover the cost even on a win.