103 replies to this topic

[Jack Lowe]

Koniving, on 24 July 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

Found it, but yesh very indirect and hard to see.





I wants in! I'll be in the AFK channel of there until you guys are ready to meet up.

Yeah it was very indirect. It was pretty close to my own general thoughts I didn't really want to rehash it just go into why it's a important consideration now not later. We should be in the headshot extreme channel either on C* NA or on NGNG. Hope to see u there.

[Purlana]

Hythos, on 24 July 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

AFK'ing wasn't as popular as that, though there were still a high amount of disconnects

Suiciders, every game.

[Telemetry]

Guys, the suiciders, etc., were not because of R&R, they were because they could still get the basic xp/cbill reward and not even play. It was a way of alternating mechs and keeping them getting xp while you didn't actually play the game. Other changes since then have stopped that type of behavior so it's a mute point. It has nothing to do with the R&R discussion.

[Big Giant Head]

CapperDeluxe, on 24 July 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

The problem with R&R is that is didn't actually hurt good players who won their matches, but really hurt those who lose a lot. If you're only scraping by making 40-60K per lost match and then get dinged for most of that, then the grind would be even worse than it already is.

The way I see it, R&R should only exist in the most highly competitive portions of the game, possibly only for community warfare and only first person hardcore type crowd.

Yes R&R that existed was problem.
Who said things cant change?
Maybe higher c-bill gain cap while leaving other prices as they are,....

[Big Giant Head]

Davers, on 24 July 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

Missile boating is completely canon so why do you want to punish it?
Some of your thoughts about logistics (both you and others in the thread) are interesting. I had some similar ideas in another
thread, long ago. But I would be very surprised if we got the deep CW experience everyone wants.

Missile boating was canon, boating is fine but not in state that MWO currently keeps it. That is problem that could be fixed with alternatives like better hardpoint configuration.

Davers, on 24 July 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

Because stock units are in anyway effective, right? Pretty sure the general impression was that trial mechs were overheating death machines, the use of which would make you a liability to your team and just stat padding for your opponent.

Perhaps we can make trial mechs pay as well - but less - because logically its stock so all those parts are easier to repair

Davers, on 24 July 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

R&R didn't make players better. In fact it proved a significant portion of players were willing to throw their team to the wolves by refusing to R&R and entering matches with damaged mechs and suicide grinding.

Get your head out of the box. R&R that existed before open beta was obivous fail, things can change. dont judge to soon, perhaps we can balance that with match scores: more match scores you have more salvage you get or whatever.

Davers, on 24 July 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

Whenever there is talk about R&R there is always someone who says "R&R is great, as long as there is a way I can avoid it by retreating!"

My entertainment should be fun. Being forced to play mechs I don't like, or being prevented from playing the mechs I do is not fun. I will never understand the "more grind= more fun" arguments. Players are already penalized for poor matches by earning less Cbills/EXP. Why isn't it enough that a bad player loses? Why must he be punished too?

Please keep the flavor text out of the actual game play. If a new player wants to play an Atlas they should be allowed. If there are 'too many' heavy and assault mechs around it is because the game rewards them more than lighter mechs.

Again, think what changes R&R would bring for boating especially PPC+Gauss

[Taemien]

Koniving, on 24 July 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

One, 25% cbill bonus + your premium. Yeah you won't notice it. But you'd still have lower income.

I covered that point here:

Taemien, on 24 July 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

I was netting about 70-100k per match in my tricked out Founder's Catapult with an XL engine. R&R never crossed my mind. RnR with Hero/Champion/Founders mechs tilts toward the pay to win venue, not fully, but tilts in the general direction.

Quote

It was removed because people would abuse it by simply not repairing or rearming. They had no requirement to do so. And so they'd go from match to match barely alive, crippled, or they'd set up bots.

However if it's introduced in a way that it won't affect anything but upgraded mechs carrying lots of ammo, then it becomes more of a balancing tool that won't impair regular players. The goal of it is not to run people into the dirt drowning in debt but to make you consider whether or not the XL engine, the extra ammo, etc., was really worth it.

12v12 will balance ammo already. People have already commented that they run dry with their normal configs. They have to mount more ammo which means losing engine size, heatsinks, or weapons. Besides, I haven't heard anything bad about ammo weapons being powerful. If RnR came back, they would need a buff to compensate for their cost. Right now we don't have to balance weapons by cost because once you have it, you have it. Once RnR is in, cost becomes an issue and becomes part of the balancing situation.

Gauss are OP! Well they should be, it costs x cbills to maintain and rearm them! Now you see part of why the game will change to something different than it is now. You're adding a metric to the balancing act.

It goes further than that. How many of you have millions of cbills laying around? How many of you have many mechs in your bays? Of all different types? Now how many newbies have that?

RnR will not affect people with cbills to spare and many do. It will hurt new players. It will hurt those who can't buy MC to get Champion or Hero Mechs. It will give Legendary Overlords (those that bought both packages) a huge advantage. Because let me tell you something. Even if I lose cbills for using a tricked out mech on a win or a loss, i will still use it to win, especially in CW. Then when I get low on cbills, I just pop in my cheap and easy to maintain Jenner D (with a cbill bonus) and farm cbills. Oh and for those of you who hate base caps, I'm capping bases the entire time to make sure the match is over asap so I can launch again.

Right now I don't feel like I need to play the system, I can play what I want, without any consequences. Put RnR in and I will jimmy up the system in the most favorable way possible for myself. And I'm not the only one. And before you all retort that is wrong. There is nothing wrong with trying to win a match by cap in a Jenner, so I'm playing by the rules the entire time.

[Big Giant Head]

Taemien, on 25 July 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

I covered that point here:






12v12 will balance ammo already. People have already commented that they run dry with their normal configs. They have to mount more ammo which means losing engine size, heatsinks, or weapons. Besides, I haven't heard anything bad about ammo weapons being powerful. If RnR came back, they would need a buff to compensate for their cost. Right now we don't have to balance weapons by cost because once you have it, you have it. Once RnR is in, cost becomes an issue and becomes part of the balancing situation.

Gauss are OP! Well they should be, it costs x cbills to maintain and rearm them! Now you see part of why the game will change to something different than it is now. You're adding a metric to the balancing act.

It goes further than that. How many of you have millions of cbills laying around? How many of you have many mechs in your bays? Of all different types? Now how many newbies have that?

RnR will not affect people with cbills to spare and many do. It will hurt new players. It will hurt those who can't buy MC to get Champion or Hero Mechs. It will give Legendary Overlords (those that bought both packages) a huge advantage. Because let me tell you something. Even if I lose cbills for using a tricked out mech on a win or a loss, i will still use it to win, especially in CW. Then when I get low on cbills, I just pop in my cheap and easy to maintain Jenner D (with a cbill bonus) and farm cbills. Oh and for those of you who hate base caps, I'm capping bases the entire time to make sure the match is over asap so I can launch again.

Right now I don't feel like I need to play the system, I can play what I want, without any consequences. Put RnR in and I will jimmy up the system in the most favorable way possible for myself. And I'm not the only one. And before you all retort that is wrong. There is nothing wrong with trying to win a match by cap in a Jenner, so I'm playing by the rules the entire time.

Agreed
Another fact - we all know there wasnt Elo system back in R&R time

[Mackman]

Could RnR be really cool in some kind of extended-campaign, multi-match, limited resource CW thing? Sure, that'd be pretty cool. I'd be totally down with that, and I'm sure a lot of other people would be as well.

But does RnR work well for the no-context, no-meta, disconnected single matches that we have right now? No.

All it would serve is to force (new and bad) people out of the mechs that they want to play, and into mechs that they don't want to play. And as much as this may surprise you, new and bad players have as much of a right to enjoy themselves in a video game as all you 1337 M3chW4rriors do.

To all of you people saying "Well, that'll teach them to get better," or "why should they feel like they can use top-tier equipment without earning it" or "Back in my day...", that's why you will never be successful game designers. Because you feel like everyone who doesn't share your level of dedication is sub-human and undeserving of fun, that people playing a video game should have to earn their fun. And that makes you idiots.

[blinkin]

as always repair and rearm gets a yes vote from me. it helped to balance the field and the FOTM builds didn't ever show up in any real numbers until it was removed. it also keeps new players in trial mechs from being faced with an endless tide of min/maxed assault mechs.

[Taemien]

Mackman, on 25 July 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

Could RnR be really cool in some kind of extended-campaign, multi-match, limited resource CW thing? Sure, that'd be pretty cool. I'd be totally down with that, and I'm sure a lot of other people would be as well.

But does RnR work well for the no-context, no-meta, disconnected single matches that we have right now? No.

All it would serve is to force (new and bad) people out of the mechs that they want to play, and into mechs that they don't want to play. And as much as this may surprise you, new and bad players have as much of a right to enjoy themselves in a video game as all you 1337 M3chW4rriors do.

To all of you people saying "Well, that'll teach them to get better," or "why should they feel like they can use top-tier equipment without earning it" or "Back in my day...", that's why you will never be successful game designers. Because you feel like everyone who doesn't share your level of dedication is sub-human and undeserving of fun, that people playing a video game should have to earn their fun. And that makes you idiots.

Believe me, I am all for people learning the ropes and getting their baptism by fire. But IF and ONLY IF they have the same things available. It makes no sense for someone in a Standard Engined Light mech going 80kph Has to go up against my Catapult that is actually faster and carries a weapon load that makes a stock Masakari Prime cringe, (which is why I am glad they getting rid of the trial mech thing for something else, but at least with trials, they're getting a massive cbill boost, so its tolerable for now).

I also agree with your first point. It requires some massive changes and additions to the game. Maybe CW will provide that, but I doubt it. But as the game stands now, RnR just widens the gap even further between newbies and vets. Funny thing is, the supporters of RnR ignore that fact and avoid discussing or debating it. I think its something they know and secretly support to keep the status quo. They haven't said anything on the contrary, thats for sure.

blinkin, on 25 July 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

as always repair and rearm gets a yes vote from me. it helped to balance the field and the FOTM builds didn't ever show up in any real numbers until it was removed. it also keeps new players in trial mechs from being faced with an endless tide of min/maxed assault mechs.

We were still grinding out cbills to get those machines up. RnR was removed very early in this Beta. The FOTM and cheese builds weren't all earned just yet. Now that they are in people's mechbays they are here to stay, many are even cheap to run. For example a Stalker with 4 PPCs uses PPCs not ER PPCs and a Standard Engine, not an XL one. Now their targets will be noobs in standard engined Jenners... wonderful.

Again supporters of RnR don't think these things out. Or they do and wish to keep the status quo. They're either ignorant, or selfish. Trying to figure out which.

[blinkin]

Taemien, on 25 July 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Believe me, I am all for people learning the ropes and getting their baptism by fire. But IF and ONLY IF they have the same things available. It makes no sense for someone in a Standard Engined Light mech going 80kph Has to go up against my Catapult that is actually faster and carries a weapon load that makes a stock Masakari Prime cringe, (which is why I am glad they getting rid of the trial mech thing for something else, but at least with trials, they're getting a massive cbill boost, so its tolerable for now).

then get rid of cbills entirely and give everyone access to every mech and whatever equipment they want as soon as they start.

I also agree with your first point. It requires some massive changes and additions to the game. Maybe CW will provide that, but I doubt it. But as the game stands now, RnR just widens the gap even further between newbies and vets. Funny thing is, the supporters of RnR ignore that fact and avoid discussing or debating it. I think its something they know and secretly support to keep the status quo. They haven't said anything on the contrary, thats for sure.

i thought the fact that newbies were stuck in trial mechs and EVERYONE else was in assaults and other mechs that could easily be worth double or triple the cost of the junk new players are in.

We were still grinding out cbills to get those machines up. RnR was removed very early in this Beta. The FOTM and cheese builds weren't all earned just yet. Now that they are in people's mechbays they are here to stay, many are even cheap to run. For example a Stalker with 4 PPCs uses PPCs not ER PPCs and a Standard Engine, not an XL one. Now their targets will be noobs in standard engined Jenners... wonderful.

last i checked we had plenty of chances to build whatever we wanted in closed beta. remember how incredibly destructive SRM were in the 2.5 days? remember how few splat cats there were in closed beta? i remember being very thoroughly surprised on the few occasions that i saw one. i remember when RR was removed and the term splat cat suddenly appearing as they flooded the fields.

Again supporters of RnR don't think these things out. Or they do and wish to keep the status quo. last time i checked keeping the status quo did not involve asking for a change. They're either ignorant, or selfish. Trying to figure out which.

again supporters of keeping RnR gone don't think these things out. Or they do and wish to keep the status quo. they're either ignorant or selfish. trying to figure out which.

[Taemien]

blinkin, on 25 July 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

then get rid of cbills entirely and give everyone access to every mech and whatever equipment they want as soon as they start.
i thought the fact that newbies were stuck in trial mechs and EVERYONE else was in assaults and other mechs that could easily be worth double or triple the cost of the junk new players are in.
last i checked we had plenty of chances to build whatever we wanted in closed beta. remember how incredibly destructive SRM were in the 2.5 days? remember how few splat cats there were in closed beta? i remember being very thoroughly surprised on the few occasions that i saw one. i remember when RR was removed and the term splat cat suddenly appearing as they flooded the fields.
last time i checked keeping the status quo did not involve asking for a change.

again supporters of keeping RnR gone don't think these things out. Or they do and wish to keep the status quo. they're either ignorant or selfish. trying to figure out which.

That's a strawman argument. You're bringing up issues that have nothing with the argument, and/or are being fixed, not to mention I stated they were being fixed.

I never said I agreed with trial mechs being good for the game. In fact I stated that they weren't.

The burden of proof is currently on you at the moment in this argument. You have to explain why RnR doesn't hurt newbies given the facts that they will not have nor can field machines that vets currently have and can field.

Here's the facts to reiterate:

We know vets have powerful and expensive machines in their mechbays. Newbies do not.
We know vets are sitting on cbills and can field those machines on a regular basis. Newbies cannot.
We know premium members, founders, and phoenixes have access to a higher cbill gain, non-paying members do not. This allows paying members to field mechs with a regularity that non-paying members cannot. Right now they get access to mechs and equipment at a faster rate, where in RnR they can field them with more frequency. That gets close to pay to win over pay for convenience.

Here's the facts that supporters of RnR have said:

FOTM builds will cease because they will be more expensive to field.
-Only for newbies, nonfounders, and nonphoenixes. Founders, Hero mech holders, and Premium Members can choose to earn the same as free to play players by using better stuff, or use what they are and earn even more. Also some FOTM builds are cheap (PPC Stalker and Splatcat are two such mechs), meaning they can just rake in the cbills.

Smaller mechs will be more cost effective.
-This is true actually. Though like above, some players will be able to field larger mech for the same (net)costs as others are paying for the small mechs. The newbies don't have access to a full mechbay, some may even buy an assault mech with an XL engine as their first mech. If they make that mistake (and some will, they're newbs), they are screwed if they lose game after game. Again premium type players will still gain on a loss, others will gain very little or lose depending on the machine.

Cbills awarded can simply be raised so people are on a more even playing field and overall netlosses aren't happening
-Premium Time + Champion/Hero/Founder/Phoenix mech = a crap ton of cbills. This has the advantage of making such things much much more valuable. In fact even with RnR my net gain per match would be higher than without RnR as it stands now. Who's all ok with this one?

[Tolkien]

Repair and rearm adds a nice flavour to a game where you have control over your destiny (e.g. mech commander) where you have to think damn hard about where to spend your money on buying a new chassis when it means you might not have enough to keep your core force repaired after the next battle.

However, R&R adds very perverse incentives that make it unsuited to anything but competitive play>
If people wanted to make Cbills during R&R they took cheap mechs rather than good mechs with a standard engine, no endo steel, etc. and to stop firing before they used up the free ammo the game would automatically give them back after the match. From the point of view of the individual it made more sense to minimize your losses than to maximize your chances of winning since you only comprise 1/8 of the team, but you must pay 100% of your R&R costs. This causes a tragedy of the commons where every individual rational actor will decide to take the cheapest thing they can pilot since their impact on the match is small (1/8 of the team) but their potential payout is so much higher when they make money even on lost matches.

The game tried R&R, it didn't work due to people gaming the system at the cost of their teammates, and it will also cause problems at the high end in competitive play by making it almost mandatory for competitive players to use premium time to earn enough to keep their kitted out mechs on the field for competitive matches - sort of like World of Tanks with golden ammo. I know you can now buy golden ammo with non-dollar currency, but the price is so high that it is still tantamount to pay to win advantages for $ since it is impractical to use without paying real money.

In this game during R&R I remember having matches where with a founders mech (25%? Cbill bonus) and premium time (50% Cbill bonus) I would lose money at times since the mech was so insanely expensive to repair and rearm. Talk about making it a pain to grind since I got stuck and couldn't afford to pull upgrades off to escape the Cbill trap I was in, and had to abandon that chassis until R&R was out again.

So to reiterate R&R is unsuited to a game where your ***** teammates can game the system by bringing crap while you're trying to bring a good mech, and even in competitive play where you can trust your team to bring their A game it has shades of pay to win.

I would rather see the devs put their time on outright copying the systems represented by the below image than on gimmick features like R&R that have so many obvious problems and were tried and failed already.

Edited by Tolkien, 26 July 2013 - 04:59 AM.

[blinkin]

Taemien, on 26 July 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

That's a strawman argument. You're bringing up issues that have nothing with the argument, and/or are being fixed, not to mention I stated they were being fixed.

I never said I agreed with trial mechs being good for the game. In fact I stated that they weren't.

The burden of proof is currently on you at the moment in this argument. You have to explain why RnR doesn't hurt newbies given the facts that they will not have nor can field machines that vets currently have and can field.

it does hurt newbies, BUT it hurts established players far more.

Here's the facts to reiterate:

We know vets have powerful and expensive machines in their mechbays. Newbies do not.

RR prevents the powerful mechs from being brought on to the field as often regardless of the standard P2W arguments.

We know vets are sitting on cbills and can field those machines on a regular basis. Newbies cannot.

we know that if there is a steady drain on those cbills they will eventually run out.

We know premium members, founders, and phoenixes have access to a higher cbill gain, non-paying members do not. This allows paying members to field mechs with a regularity that non-paying members cannot. Right now they get access to mechs and equipment at a faster rate, where in RnR they can field them with more frequency. That gets close to pay to win over pay for convenience.

pay to win is bad, but new players getting roflstomped because EVERYONE else just outright has better equipment is far worse in my opinion.

Here's the facts that supporters of RnR have said:

FOTM builds will cease because they will be more expensive to field.
-Only for newbies, nonfounders, and nonphoenixes. Founders, Hero mech holders, and Premium Members can choose to earn the same as free to play players by using better stuff, or use what they are and earn even more. Also some FOTM builds are cheap (PPC Stalker and Splatcat are two such mechs), meaning they can just rake in the cbills.

here is the strawman if you really want one. no one ever said they would stop, but they would be greatly reduced in number on the field. just like i have actually seen. yup players who pay would be able to play powerful mechs more often, but i think the pay to win boogeyman is generally less bad than a new player who hasn't earned any equipment and likely doesn't understand the game getting rolled repeatedly by an endless sea of assault mechs. right now the new players get thoroughly corn holed because they are the only ones on the field with crappy mechs (even if you get rid of trial mechs)

you even reinforce my views because unless the FOTM happens to actually be one of the specialty mech, at some point unskilled players will be forced to step into an alternate machine that is less powerful. this means that the percentage of assault mechs and min/max death machines on the field is reduced allowing new players to fight against something that is not quite as overpowering.

splatcat? seriously? i have owned my cat C4 since early closed beta. it is usually the prime example i use for why RR worked. before the payout for a match win was 100,000cbills. usual repairs for my catapult cost somewhere between 75,000 and 150,000cbills. this means if i played poorly i could easily lose money even if my team won.

Smaller mechs will be more cost effective.
-This is true actually. Though like above, some players will be able to field larger mech for the same (net)costs as others are paying for the small mechs. The newbies don't have access to a full mechbay, some may even buy an assault mech with an XL engine as their first mech. If they make that mistake (and some will, they're newbs), they are screwed if they lose game after game. Again premium type players will still gain on a loss, others will gain very little or lose depending on the machine.

yes more of the pay to win boogeyman. pay to win is bad, but what we have now is far worse. yeah i get the buyer remorse thing, it is the only pure flaw with the system that i really see, BUT that is why trial mechs that are completely cost free are important.

Cbills awarded can simply be raised so people are on a more even playing field and overall netlosses aren't happening
-Premium Time + Champion/Hero/Founder/Phoenix mech = a crap ton of cbills. This has the advantage of making such things much much more valuable. In fact even with RnR my net gain per match would be higher than without RnR as it stands now. Who's all ok with this one?

yes pay to win is scary. you have already said that several times before.

what have you proven beyond P2W is scary? what if the P2W way is generally better and more fun for players despite being unfair?

Edited by blinkin, 26 July 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[zolop]

Itkovian, on 24 July 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

Personally I think we should have repair/rearm as part of Community Warfare, alongside a more developed logistics feature for entire units (sort of late-phase CW). Things like tracking ammo supplies, spare parts, and so on. As part of a full campaign feature that would be awesome.

But for random pugging? I can see why the current situation is preferable. Keep in mind that economics balancing is generally bad: it basically means that people who have tons of money are free to use the Better More Expensive Stuff just by virtue of being richer.

A weapon or mech shouldn't be better in-game just because it cost more to obtain or maintain in the metagame. All this would do is favour premium pilots, as they'd more easily be able to afford repair and rearm costs. Some might even call this P2W.

Agree completely

[Taemien]

blinkin, on 26 July 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

what have you proven beyond P2W is scary? what if the P2W way is generally better and more fun for players despite being unfair?

Ok lets do it. I'll support it. And here's why -I- Support it:

With Premium time and my Founder's Mechs, I will totally obliterate all the Free to Play Players because of my Star League Era tech. RnR won't hurt me at all. It didn't before.

Free to Play players should man up and actually get on the ball. They are leeches that take server time and resources, they should be fodder for the rest of us until they realize that the only way to compete, is to shell out the dough to stay competitive. Otherwise they just feed the paying members the cbills and exp to continually demolish their fellows.

[Helbourne]

They need to add a lock out timer to simulate your mech being repaired and reloaded. Your 20 ton mech will get repaired so much faster than a 100 ton mech. The old R&R system had no such system. I would not want to see mechs locked out for a day or hours, but rather minutes... 1 minute for every 10 tons the mech weights sounds to me like a good 'simulation'. Of course I only see such a timer in the community warfare, where the battles count for something.

[Davers]

R&R as a means of balancing mech types and load outs did not work. Players who drop in groups or have premium time will always be able to run what they want. The only people hurt by R&R are new players and solo droppers.

[Big Giant Head]

Davers, on 26 July 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

R&R as a means of balancing mech types and load outs did not work.

Thats why we need to learn from mistakes and figure what would be the best

[Helbourne]

People exploit the systems all the time, because people are stupid, dishonest, and just don't care. When community warfare starts, I really hope they turn this game into a WAR game, not just these FPS twitchy match based game.

Resource management is a huge part of war and MechWarrior. If you go through a battle and get all your heavy weapons destroyed and your stuck with a few small lasers and 10 machine guns with 900 rounds of ammo, well you have to deal with it.

Edited by Helbourne, 27 July 2013 - 06:04 AM.