578 replies to this topic

[Stoicblitzer]

Homeless Bill, on 24 July 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Competitive players use cheesy builds because winning for them is more fun than losing. Winning with PPC sniping isn't necessarily fun for them, but it's more fun to them than losing with something else.

TL;DR: Competitive people are not the villains; they are currently the ones most vocally pushing for balance changes that are a mostly a direct nerf to what they run.

Homeless Bill, on 24 July 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Competitive players use cheesy builds because winning for them is more fun than losing. Winning with PPC sniping isn't necessarily fun for them, but it's more fun to them than losing with something else.

TL;DR: Competitive people are not the villains; they are currently the ones most vocally pushing for balance changes that are a mostly a direct nerf to what they run.

Homeless Bill, on 24 July 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Competitive players use cheesy builds because winning for them is more fun than losing. Winning with PPC sniping isn't necessarily fun for them, but it's more fun to them than losing with something else.

TL;DR: Competitive people are not the villains; they are currently the ones most vocally pushing for balance changes that are a mostly a direct nerf to what they run.

Homeless Bill, on 24 July 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Competitive players use cheesy builds because winning for them is more fun than losing. Winning with PPC sniping isn't necessarily fun for them, but it's more fun to them than losing with something else.

TL;DR: Competitive people are not the villains; they are currently the ones most vocally pushing for balance changes that are a mostly a direct nerf to what they run.

Homeless Bill, on 24 July 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Competitive players use cheesy builds because winning for them is more fun than losing. Winning with PPC sniping isn't necessarily fun for them, but it's more fun to them than losing with something else.

TL;DR: Competitive people are not the villains; they are currently the ones most vocally pushing for balance changes that are a mostly a direct nerf to what they run.

[Mystere]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 July 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

There was no reason for a Jager40 Nerf.

I see it as a preemptive strike on future mechs that can easily have more than one of them.

[Stoicblitzer]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 July 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

I......I........I....me.....I....me........I........I

egotistical stories don't help.

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 24 July 2013 - 01:51 PM.

[Warge]

z3a1ot, on 24 July 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

I own 12 mechs and not even 1 of them carries PPCs.

I have 1: BJ-1. 5 2*PPC shots - and Mech goes "shut down". Pretty solid build, not OP. But PPC too cold for it's power.

[Joseph Mallan]

keith, on 24 July 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

of corse there was. its incase we ever do get a mech that can hold ac40 that has armor. then do the herp a derp thing and maybe ton down recycle or add heat to it then. strange ideas

Don't worry it is coming. And it is not a OP build (nor will it be). The ability to put 40 on one pixel is. I throw 64 Alphas in My Atlas, 55 Point Alpha in my Victor and a 35 point Alpha in my Phracthammer-6D but I don't hear a whine fest about a single one..

Stoicblitzer, on 24 July 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

egotistical stories don't help.

No ego here buddy. Experience does not equal egotistical.

Mystere, on 24 July 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

I see it as a preemptive strike on future mechs that can easily have more than one of them.

The Jager easily carries 2.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 24 July 2013 - 01:57 PM.

[Warge]

scJazz, on 24 July 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

PPC/Gauss/AC20 need to be nerfed to suck as much as everything else!

What's wrong with you? Gauss long ago balanced well and don't touch it.
As for AC/10/20 - let them fire short bursts and problem solved. As for PPC - we all wait for 30.07: PPC should generate little more heat.

[MisterFiveSeven]

Every time I drop in my Misery and see an Awesome, I sigh, because I really like the Awesome. I enjoyed mastering it, and it was a ******* blast to play with all sorts of different energy loadouts.

Then I blow out his ct like a hurricance because it's literally the size of a barn and wonder why he dropped with one in the first place.

I built a new computer, became able to play with >20 fps, and now all I see in assault drops are highlanders, victors, ddc's, and stalkers. lol and the occasional jenner or 3L.

I want to drop in an Awesome. I will not because I don't want to die in two volleys. For 5 more tons I can be significantly more helpful to my team because I live longer.

I'm not saying the awesome is so bad I can't use it effectively, I'm saying the stalker is a better choice in almost any situation. PPC's and gauss are the most effective weapons in the game, and with the drops I see I typically don't have the luxury of dropping with what's fun, because dying in 5 sec in not fun, regardless of the mech I use.

I guess to the OP: Is it my fault that the hitboxes on those two mechs make no sense and that PGI thinks designing obtuse heat scales is a better use of technical resources?

Hint: The only way balance can be competitive players' fault is if you answer yes.

Edit :: I really do enjoy the awesome even with all the hate, and it and the stalker perform different roles, but I sincerely think the Victor put like 300 nails into that already buried coffin.

Edited by MisterFiveSeven, 24 July 2013 - 02:06 PM.

[1453 R]

*Sigh*

A'ight. Let's get some things straight.

This is the sort of topic which pushes every single one of my Mad-On buttons. Any time I see Elites trying to squeeze out everyone else and tell the rest of us that we don't qualify for an opinion, or for this game, because our Elo level isn't OVER 9000, it tends to provoke instant rage. Heh, you've seen that by now.

Allow me to define a couple of terms here, the way I see them.

The Competitive Players many of you seem to be talking about in this thread are just fine. I've been one in my TCG days - the player who likes to win, considers himself quite good at it, but who likes the scene more than the wins. I love more than anything to teach newer players how the game works and show them how I build my decks, how they can build theirs, and how they can improve on what they want to do without having to sacrifice their own creative sparks or their own notions of how they want to play and win. These are the players who, upon seeing a guy in the Help sections of the forum post a thread saying "I'm new, I really like my Blackjack but I keep doing badly in it...", would come in and say "A'ight then, let's make you the best damn Blackjack we can, and here's some things you can do to try and be a better pilot." These guys, I like and admire.

The Elites (also known as Pros or Pr0s, also known as MLGs, also known as complete friggin' jackoffs on every conceivable level), on the other hand, are the scourge of my friggin' existence. They believe themselves superior in any and every way to any other player they do not specifically acknowledge as one of their own, and furthermore they hold an active dislike, scaling up to an active hatred in many examples of the breed, for any player who is not one of their own. They feel that the Scrubs are the cause of every single problem in the game, and that if only there weren't any damn Scrubs in their game everything would just be so much better. They despise any notion of balancing for everyone, rather than using game balancing as yet another tool to cut away as many scrubs as they can from their game. They are the players who, upon seeing that Blackjack thread in the Help sections, would do one of two things:

1.) "The best way to pilot a Blackjack is to sell it, buy a Highlander 732, and put PPCs in the torso and a Gauss rifle in the arm. That's the way the game is played, get used to it or go home."
2.) Absolutely nothing, because these players wouldn't be caught dead in the Help sections of the forums.

It is the arguments and mentalities - and, frankly, the existences - of the Elites that I rail against with every keystroke I make Those are the sorts of players who make for a toxic environment for everyone around them. They're the ones who make Piranha wonder why they're bothering, they're the ones who congratulate themselves every time a new player flees the game in tears, they're the ones out there trying to find any and every way they can to know, at a glance, who the other Elites on the forum are so that they can cut off as much contact as they can with the filthy little Scrubs they hate so much. Every time you see a 'Balance gameplay around league play!' thread, or a 'Make Elo scores public!' thread, or any similar notion of filtering out any input/ideas from the majority of the game, you're in a thread with an Elite.

And much like Darkwing Duck, I will do my best to be there in all my rage-filled glory, giving them the same ulcers they give me. Because those players never, ever, ever have the best interests of you, or me, or MWO itself, at heart. They want their closed-off little Old Boys Club, and never mind that it's financially unfeasable as well as a monstrous idea. it's what they want and they won't stop screeching their hate until they get it.

That is what's going on here. Which bothers me as much as it does you, because I see names I like and respect in this thread giving the OP as much grief as names I already know are Elites, simply because too many players figure the Elites are the only competitive players out there. Not true, guys - and really, DaZur has a very real point when it comes to Elites rather than simply competitive players.

[Joseph Mallan]

To be fair, Victors are the new kid on the block, and we want to level them.

[Aym]

DaZur, on 24 July 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

What are ya think you're some sort of Jedi waving your hand to dismiss my forwarded premise?

Assumptive... maybe. Flat-out false? nope... Don't have to agree with them but that does not make them any less plausible...

Uh... This is not the presumption of innocence you're looking for...?
No, seriously, I'm dismissing your premise because you bring no evidence for it and it flies in the face of my experience. Again, consider my Tic-tac-toe analogy. It's not as insulting as it may at first seem ;-)

[warner2]

1453 R, on 24 July 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

snip

Why don't you tell us how you really feel?

The whole competitive versus casual gamer thing is such a massive generalization though as to be pointless.

There is such a thing as a player who uses wacky builds, has fun simply playing on the PUG queue, as well as being in a unit that plays in tournaments and leagues the aim of which is to *gasp* win, which itself is a very interesting and in-depth experience. In essence you can be both casual and competitive and enjoy both.

[Stoicblitzer]

1453 R, on 24 July 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

They are the players who, upon seeing that Blackjack thread in the Help sections, would do one of two things:

1.) "The best way to pilot a Blackjack is to sell it, buy a Highlander 732, and put PPCs in the torso and a Gauss rifle in the arm. That's the way the game is played, get used to it or go home."

you're brushing with some broad strokes there. i sometimes say the above in the new player help forum without the last part "get used to it or go home." this is just a voicing of my frustration with the game.

[Joseph Mallan]

1453 R, on 24 July 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

1.) "The best way to pilot a Blackjack is to sell it, buy a Highlander 732, and put PPCs in the torso and a Gauss rifle in the arm. That's the way the game is played, get used to it or go home."
2.) Absolutely nothing, because these players wouldn't be caught dead in the Help sections of the forums.

After reading your post I have only 2 things to say.

1) I admire your willingness to help out the new players.

2) I am ashamed that I have not spent time in the Help Section.

[Warge]

Kunae, on 24 July 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

It would still have been, like the JJ shake ... a stupid idea.

What's so stupid in that? And how you suggest to solve poptart's problem?

[Aym]

Kunae, on 24 July 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Compare:

Player 1: DDC1: 1MG, 1LB10X w/2t ammo, 1 LRM20/10t ammo, 1 flamer, 1 ERLL
Player 2: DDC2: 2ML, 1 AC20/4t ammo, 3SRM6/5t ammo

Which is more skilled at building a mech?

Meh, one sucks and the other sucks at copying decent builds ;-)

[Homeless Bill]

1453 R, on 24 July 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

Because those players never, ever, ever have the best interests of you, or me, or MWO itself, at heart. They want their closed-off little Old Boys Club, and never mind that it's financially unfeasable as well as a monstrous idea. it's what they want and they won't stop screeching their hate until they get it.

This is where you're just flat-out wrong. The simple truth of it is that you ignore the facts of the situation because you don't like a lot of the competitive players and how they act. The competitive community is filled with ******, and you don't like the way they talk about the rest of us, but your accusations are absolutely baseless.

Find me someone from the competitive community saying sniping / PPC boating is fine. Seriously, you'll find hundreds of threads about balance from competitive players, but I haven't seen a one defending the current metagame.

Your whole post is just a big list of ad hominem attacks that ignore what the competitive community has been saying for months. You're more than welcome to think they're elitist ********, but pretending they haven't been leading the charge for less cheese is just ridiculous.

[Rippthrough]

The only player in here showing massive hate towards a genre of other players, is yourself 1453.

[WVAnonymous]

Banditman, on 24 July 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

You are well spoken, but completely wrong.

If a "casual" player's only criteria for fun was playing, then they wouldn't care that these "competitive" players beat them down constantly. Right? Well, we know that's not accurate, witness the massive QQ before any sort of matchmaker was created.

So, now we have to look at what the "casual" player *really* wants. What he "wants" is to enter a match with the understanding (be it accurate or inaccurate) that he has somewhere around a 50% chance of winning. Here's where the "casual" player has a problem.

Casual players simply don't understand the game well enough to figure out "why" they don't win more often. The ELO driven matchmaker actually does a fairly decent job of matching what it thinks is skill. It doesn't however create what players feel are balanced matches very often. Why is that? In this game, it's because there are simply way too many elements at play for a simple ELO score to consistently create balanced matches.

• Weight is a huge factor, and the matchmaker does very little with it.
  
• Mech configuration is a huge factor, and there's no way for the matchmaker to even look at it.
  
• Map selection is a huge factor that works in tandem with the prior two here.

If you put every single player into an identical mech, and let ELO match them, I bet you'd see a great number of very good, balanced matches. But that's not MechWarrior.

The whole "competitive" versus "casual" argument is completely bunk tbh. If winning isn't important to you, only playing the game, then you would never take part in a debate like this. Your fun comes by simply hitting "Launch", and you don't care at all. The fact that someone will take the time to frame a debate like this puts the lie to any claims that person might have about winning being a driving factor. If you don't care about winning, this debate will never happen.

Because it's very clear that regardless of what a "casual" player might say, they do in fact care about winning, or at least the ability to feel like they have a chance to win.

In that case, the entire focus for the debate falls back to the mechanics of the game and who understands and uses them more effectively. It's not that any player has any advantage in the mechanics. The mechanics are the same for everyone. Those players who people call "competitive" have simply analyzed and understood the mechanics of the game and chosen to utilize those mechanics that are most effective, or they have mimiced another player who has.

The real desire of players who frame a debate like this is to find a way to compete only against like minded players. They want to compete only against players who don't care about the mechanics, who don't think about maximizing their performance, who don't analyze and reflect on how to improve.

I have bad news. It's not going to happen. As long as there is a score, a winner and a loser, people will try to win. Some people will work harder to be on the winning side. Those players will, within their own abilities, succeed.

Interesting side-bar comment above on map selection and player performance.

My total W/L is 1.00 (good job MM system) except my Alpine Maps is around 1.4 and stable. Why? Because on Alpine I have room and time to chat with my team, suggest approaches, actually plan. City maps I'm closer to 0.8 because the "meta" is everyone charge into the confined spaces, play hotshot CoD pilot, and have no time to respond.

Map balance is as important as weapon and mech balance.

[Joseph Mallan]

Homeless Bill, on 24 July 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

This is where you're just flat-out wrong. The simple truth of it is that you ignore the facts of the situation because you don't like a lot of the competitive players and how they act. The competitive community is filled with ******, and you don't like the way they talk about the rest of us, but your accusations are absolutely baseless.

Find me someone from the competitive community saying sniping / PPC boating is fine. Seriously, you'll find hundreds of threads about balance from competitive players, but I haven't seen a one defending the current metagame.

Your whole post is just a big list of ad hominem attacks that ignore what the competitive community has been saying for months. You're more than welcome to think they're elitist ********, but pretending they haven't been leading the charge for less cheese is just ridiculous.

Homeless I think the problem he is having is the delivery some of those 'elite' players give. There is a big difference in being right and being an ashat! If that is what his post is about (its what I read in it BTW), I agree with him. I have had lots of encounters with poor winners making a fool out of themselves at my expense.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 24 July 2013 - 02:29 PM.

[Wascally Wabbit]

Stoicblitzer, on 24 July 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

i see your point and think you're wrong. blame the game, not the player. even competitive players are bored with ppc/gauss.

so why continue using them? What's the point of continuing to do something that bores you? The only effect is you are having is annoying the crap out of casual players like me and making me question whether I will continue with this game. Yeah, yeah the competitive players don't care if I leave, but sooner or later PGI is going to run out of people interested in trying the game or continuing to play on a casual basisand the active population will crash. Then what?

The small group of competitive players is going to be insufficient to support the game, PGI will fold up the tent and it will be another decade before some one tries to reserrect the title. BRAVO! Good job on grinding what might have been a long lasting good time out of existence.

Yes PGI has buggered up a bunch of things but don't just point the finger at them. Those who exploit the flaws in the game mechanics and ruin the fun for everyone else are just as culpible if MWO burns out. PGI's reaction time on ECM, PPCs, poptarts, etc, etc has sucked but just because they haven't been timely on fixing the crap doesn't justify the systemic abuse of the holes. Competitve players need to take some responsibility for pushing everyone else into using the exploits or constantly get steamrollered.

Accept your role in creating an environment which is increasingly dull. If you just have to be "competitive" get your buddies together and go back to the 8 man queue and bore yourselves into oblivion. Leave the rest of us to flail away with our substandard mech set-ups and having fun shooting the hell out of each other. Ignorance is bliss and I like it that way.