33 replies to this topic

[travelbug]

i remember mw2/3 were sim like games played best with a HOTAS.
would that kind of setup work with mwo?

[scJazz]

Koniving plays with a throttle side of a HOTAS. General opinion is that aiming is best done with a Mouse.

[Buckminster]

The other option is joystick/mouse - use the joystick off hand for throttle and steering, and mouse for aiming. It works very well, and still feels "sim".

[ShinVector]

Buckminster, on 24 July 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

The other option is joystick/mouse - use the joystick off hand for throttle and steering, and mouse for aiming. It works very well, and still feels "sim".

Make you wonder when they are going to release cockpit skin item that changes that right joystick into a mouse pad and mouse.

[Koniving]

travelbug, on 24 July 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

i remember mw2/3 were sim like games played best with a HOTAS.
would that kind of setup work with mwo?

Here we go.
In your MWO folder you should find a user.cfg.

Spoiler

CL_FOV = 75
cl_joystick_gain = 2
cl_joystick_sensitivity = 0.5
cl_joystick_throttle_range = 0
cl_joystick_invert_throttle = 1
cl_joystick_invert_pitch = 1
cl_joystick_invert_yaw = 0
cl_joystick_invert_turn = 0
cl_joystick_deadzone = 0.1

Honestly though I don't use the right stick for gameplay. I use the left stick, and I set up the controls to use the stick for throttle. The buttons under my fingers turn me left and right. I also have power down and rarely used buttons under the fingers.

The buttons under my thumb are used for armlock toggle, target, jumpjets, and override.



There's very little on the right stick that I currently use. Night vision and thermal for example.

But until they install a Look Spring (Golden Eye, Perfect Dark anyone?), the joystick itself is virtually useless compared to a mouse.

[Miekael]

I also use the throttle end of the Thrustmaster T.Flight hotas. I find it is great to set up mech movement on it, with the rudder programed to turn the mech, gives great control in my opinion. Still use the mouse to aim and shoot, however, the joystick just can't keep up with my gaming mouse.

As for set up, I usually run my zoom, targeting, vision modes, and JJs on the thumb buttons, and reserve the bottom (SE/ST) buttons for my shutdown and override. This leaves one button open, which I usually reserve for ECM, however, I have found uses for it if you use the zoom module, or to trigger consumables as well. Very fun set up, I would recommend you give it a try if you haven't!

[BlackBeltJones]

I refuse to use the mouse for this game. I have a CH setup with Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, and Pro Pedals.
I know it is a disadvantage but I could not imagine playing any Mechawarrior game without a full HOTAS rig.

[Roheryn]

I play with a joystick in my left hand and a 17 button mouse in my right hand.

The Joystick y axis controls throttle, X axis controls leg direction, and the buttons and hat are my weapon groups and vision modes.

The right hand is my torso, targeting and various functions (Q key, ecm toggle, etc. etc.)

The joystick was way to innaccurate for aiming compared to the mouse.

[travelbug]

im not really asking for my sake, but i was chatting with a big sim gamer who played the likes of mw2, falcon 3, apache, etc. in his opinion mw2/3 were the best scifi themed sims he has ever played. i remember mw 2/3 and being constantly beaten by guys with a hotas setup (as compared to my kb/m).
he tried to play the game with his warthog hotas but it didnt work.
to him no self respecting mw game should be played w/o at least a joystick and ideally a hotas as thats how it was meant to be played and kb/m is not sim'ing.

i can see some sense in his arguments.

[Roheryn]

travelbug, on 24 July 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

im not really asking for my sake, but i was chatting with a big sim gamer who played the likes of mw2, falcon 3, apache, etc. in his opinion mw2/3 were the best scifi themed sims he has ever played. i remember mw 2/3 and being constantly beaten by guys with a hotas setup (as compared to my kb/m).
he tried to play the game with his warthog hotas but it didnt work.
to him no self respecting mw game should be played w/o at least a joystick and ideally a hotas as thats how it was meant to be played and kb/m is not sim'ing.

i can see some sense in his arguments.

Current Military remote piloting often uses mouse style input...I would bet in the next 20 years gamepads will basically replace sticks entirely in real life applications. Hell I know for a fact of one drone type that uses a PS2 controller (or what looks identical to one). I agree with the feeling of a keyboard being terrible, but I am basically using a HOTAM system and it is both intuitive and still feels very sim to me.

[travelbug]

i did tell him about hotam and he'll try it out

[MoPo]

I use a Saitek X52 as a HOTAM rig now. I tried it with the stick as well but my aim sucked even more than with a mouse (which takes some doing). All I use on the stick now are the toggle switches on the base, set as latch controls for the 6 weapon groups (handy for being able to toggle TAG on/off).

[Hammerhai]

I play with a Warthog HOTAS. I even snipe with it. Sometimes successfully ...
FWIW it makes less of a difference on a Light as you are going to get weapon rake anyway, moving at those speeds. So who cares ???
Downside: I will never be a top grade 8 man player with an 9000 ELO. Never ... Ever ...

[EyeDie I]

i use the tflight hotas x with the stick (badly)but try to fine aim with a trackball between them..

[Loc Nar]

Yes I use a HOTAS, -but- my joystick is a one of a kind purpose built zero-order control device and so works quite well since it is mechanically optimized (no spring centering, highly damped zenith/azimuth [pitch/twist] gimbal, absolute inputs) to be what it is, and it is installed in my current mechpit. Note: the same exact attributes that make it work well with reticule aim in MWO make it a terrible stick for flight.

The underlying reason why people have such a bad time with a regular joystick those are first-order control devices, but MWO is coded for zero-order controllers and unfortunately this puts most joysticks at a disadvantage. Rarely does mismatching control-order of an application and input device yield good results, but while higher order applications can be adapted to lower order input devices (mouseflight!), it does not work the other way around and unfortunately lower order applications can't be adapted to higher order input devices. (regular joystick in a shooter will always be a fish out of water...). Just like flight sims, previous mech titles were coded with first (and higher) order control mechanics in mind.

Zero-order control: direct manipulation of the cursor/target/reticule
First-order control: manipulation of cursor/target/reticule velocity

MWO is coded around zero-order inputs however, so as such only a zero-order controller can effectively operate it. The lack of effectiveness of a first-order controller in these conditions is a well documented thing in the field of Human Factors of engineering, and MWO is just another example in a long line of examples. Can you use a first-order controller? Yes, but with sub-optimal results.

If anyone wonders about a method of aiming or device's viability for reticule aim in MWO, just try using it to move the cursor in your browser for a day (a joystick running mouse emulation etc). That will tell you everything you need to know about what you are up against. The cursor in your browser is the same thing as the reticule in MWO so if it's a pain in the asss browse with it's gonna really suck to aim with...

I wrote an article I recommend at least skimming it if you are not familiar with the terms zero-order or first-order control since understanding those are the key to understanding not just MWO's controls, but pretty much any game. Having conversations about controls without identifying control order of an application and the input devices being used for it serves little purpose and usually winds up perpetuating misinformation, and there's already enough of that.

Controls Demystified(?)

excerpt: Is a mouse more accurate then a joystick? Is a joystick superior to a mouse? Well… yes to both. Aaaaand no to both. The real answer? It depends. It depends on what type of movement/inputs the application was engineered around, and the nuts and bolts of how an input device tries to comply...

HOTAS


HOTAM

...by unscewing the stick at its base and flipping the armrest forward my pit can be driven HOTAM

[RF Greywolf]

Loc Nar, I'm not gonna lie.... I'm jealous...

[Koniving]

Yeah, what I have is the first-order control. Spring. Etc. With a spring look function I can get the results I want in a very Goldeneye 64 / Perfect Dark style where I push the stick x-distance and twist x-distance, giving me perfect control over the mech. That way when I let go of the stick I re-center automatically. It's how I would prefer to run it. Though if I had known about Zero-order control I would have gotten a different HOTAS.

That said, I'll give the full details on how mine is set up a bit later with an edit here. Because, unlike most HOTAS sticks, mine was dirt cheap. The throttle alone adds so much to the experience.

[travelbug]

great post loc-nar, that really explains much.

aside from what im assuming is first order controls on the older mw series, i remember being able to target a mech, and specific components even, if you had a targetting computer on board. thus you didnt necessarily have to line up your weapons, and as long as the mech was selected and within the chosen weapons firing arc, the weapon would engage. you concentrated more on actually driving the mech, situational awareness, and giving your lance orders rather than lining up that reticule. its another aspect that made the old mw's more simmy.

and for a guy like me who isnt into fps and isnt exactly a great shot, its the feature i miss the most.

[Koniving]

New module from PGI: Automatic aiming via the C3 targeting computer. Dun dun dun!

[travelbug]

Koniving, on 25 July 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

New module from PGI: Automatic aiming via the C3 targeting computer. Dun dun dun!

is this for real?