242 replies to this topic

[Modo44]

Roland, on 26 July 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

The fact that certain mechs can only really mount poor weapons doesn't make those weapons good. It just means that those mechs end up being inherently bad as well.

Yeah, all those lights with pulse lasers are really terrible. People obviously have no clue what they are doing.

[Fire and Salt]

The ERLL totally has a place where it exceeds the LL
If your build has ballistics and an LL, it probably runs cool. In that case ERLL is a free range upgrade. I will probably put on on my locust, along with 4 MG's (it has 1 energy and 4 ballistic slots)

Yep, mgs suck, but nothing else will fit there...

I agree that LGPulse is inferior to just having 2 medium lasers if you have 2 hard points. Its slightly better, but 5 tons more.. Usually not worth it. But there are a few builds that can't fit another ML, that already have 2 LLs, and in those rare cases LPL is a good choice.

I never use MPLs because the range is so short. But if you want arm weapons for your atlas to kill lights, they are useful. What's 2 tons to an atlas?

Also, lrm5 can be used to push targets of of cover - because it still causes beeps. Doesn't do crap for damage if they have ams though.

Haven't found a use for the LBX10 that can't be better filled by a rac5 or ac10... I agree there.




Not saying that these weapons don't need buffs (well lrms don't or they will destroy in pugs) but there are a few cases where some if the weapons you mentioned are useful.

[zraven7]

Victor Morson, on 25 July 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

1: Mount a Large Pulse Laser, AC/5, AC/10, LBX/10, Machine Gun, Flamer, ER Large Laser, Medium Pulse Laser, NARC, or less LRMs (per volley) than 20. These guns are horrendous and you're already gimping your build right out of the gate with them! Try better guns.

Alright, let's go through the list here.

Large Pulse Laser - Ok, I wanna have a better argument for this weapon, because I like it, but I cannot justify it outside some very, very niche builds. It can be useful on a couple of the spiders, simply because they take up 2 slots instead of 3. (Can't fit a PPC into a spider chest slot)

AC5 - Another niche weapon, but more usable than the LPL. THey are good when paired with a UAC5 in a mech than can't mount 2 UAC5s, like a dragon. Provides steady damage while you cool off a UAC jam. However, hard to argue equipping one by itself instead of a UAC.

AC10 - Best I can say is that some people prefer it, and the one's that do put out damage with it. Might be a comfort-zone thing.

LBX10 - IS good for builds dedicated to stripping armor, but that's about it. IF you team up one or two of these with some SRMs, you can strip mechs naked while your team cleans up. However, that's one of the only uses I've seen for it. Some use it as a crit-seeker, but I Think a machine gun does much better for that, at much less tonnage and space.

Machine Gun - Best crit-seeker in the game, but NOT A STAND-ALONE WEAPON. For these to work, you either need another weapon for taking off armor plates, or you need to wait for a team mate to crack some armor before you pour it on. Doesn't kill mechs too often, but can destroy all their weapons. Good for what it does.

Flamer - Can act as an energy crit seeker, but that's about it. Pretty much useless. Looks awesome, though.

ER large Laser - This is another comfort-zone weapon. Some people are simply better with a Laser than a ballistic-type weapon, and prefer this as a sniping weapon over the PPC. Doesn't make it better, just means they are better at using it. Again, it only takes up 2 slots, which could be an issue. Otherwise, yes, the normal LL or a PPC is a better choice.

Medium Pulse Laser - ok, I'll argue for this one. They pack more damage into a shorter firing interval than Medium lasers, and still only take up one slot. Also, 2 medium pulse lasers out-damage a PPC for less weight and space. These are also invaluable on certain light-mech builds.

NARC - In it's current iteration, it's useless. I've got nothing.

LRM 5, 10, 15 - LRM5s aren't great. No dispute there. However, on most mechs, LRM10s or 15s match their available missile tubes much better than a twenty, and keep you from firing the dreaded 5 cluster that instantly gets destroyed by AMS. Unless you have a 20 tube hardpoint, lrm 10 or 15 are actually much better choices.

I still feel, however, that all players should try all weapons. Some people get a feel for a weapon, and make it work where others can't. Mechs are pricey, but weapons really aren't. Try everything.

Edited by zraven7, 26 July 2013 - 07:06 AM.

[Roland]

Quote

LBX10 - IS good for builds dedicated to stripping armor, but that's about it. IF you team up one or two of these with some SRMs, you can strip mechs naked while your team cleans up. However, that's one of the only uses I've seen for it. Some use it as a crit-seeker, but I Think a machine gun does much better for that, at much less tonnage and space.

I'm confused about your suggestion here.

An LBX-10 is specifically terrible for punching through armor, because it will spread damage all over the place.

When dealing with armor, you want to focus your damage on a single panel to get through it as fast as possible. It doesn't serve any purpose to strip the armor off of multiple panels if you can help it. The most efficient way to kill a mech is to get to its internals on a critical section as fast as possible, while leaving the rest of the mech in pristine condition.

[Chrithu]

The only thing I disagree with is the stuff about AC/5 and AC/10 being horrendous. There are builds in which they are good if you know how to use them. A beginner may not make much of them but in experienced hands they can really do a nice job. I guess any Jager and Cataphract pilot will second that.

[MustrumRidcully]

Modo44, on 25 July 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

The "weapons to avoid" list is pretty silly. All of those have their place, just not on your cookie-cutter Highlander.

I think the thread starter was trying to actually help new players and knowing about the current state of balance in the game, so they do not make poor choices out of ignorance or the idealistic belief about weapon balance being okay.

All weapons should be balanced and equally viable, but they are not. It is good to know which to avoid, until PGI figures out a way to make all weapons equally useful and viable.

[BoPop]

i have to disagree with the first 'tip' that involves weapons. the rest of the 'tips' are ok.

but regarding weapons, it makes me curious as to what mech and play style the OP runs primarily? i'm going to guess a sniping gauss/ppc/srm highlander with jump jets. 2nd guess would be... gauss and 2 erppc or whatever. no doubt the highlander is a powerful mech. 3rd guess would be a PPC stalker *yawn*

whichever it is, doesn't there come a point when you get tired of running the same mech? many of the weapons the OP listed as "don't use EVAR" can find a home on several of the chassis in a variety of play styles. I've got close to 50 chassis mastered having used all of these weapons in one way or another.

the only weapon I might agree with is the LB just cuz I think only a somewhat seasoned player could put it to good use, but if i'm running a medium or light and i find a target that has an LB it puts me on alert until i find out how good that pilot is with it.

I like ac5's, 10's, LPL's, LL's, MPL's and have found uses for them in many a build. i did an experimental build on a cataphract with just the ballistic and 2LPL's, think i used an ac10, and i had no weapons on my arms, and lowered their armor. i had several good rounds in a row and basic'd that thing out quick with a build i thought would only entertain me for one match. Alpine was the only map that stinks for silly builds like that but the rest of the maps were ok for that set up. i used MPL's too to master my cicadas, even ran a 2B build that had 3 LL's (before the heat penalty)

[zraven7]

Roland, on 26 July 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

I'm confused about your suggestion here.

An LBX-10 is specifically terrible for punching through armor, because it will spread damage all over the place.

When dealing with armor, you want to focus your damage on a single panel to get through it as fast as possible. It doesn't serve any purpose to strip the armor off of multiple panels if you can help it. The most efficient way to kill a mech is to get to its internals on a critical section as fast as possible, while leaving the rest of the mech in pristine condition.

Yes, this is the most efficient way to kill a mech by yourself. The point of LBX/SRM builds is to sling large amounts of damage over mechs while your team comes in and destroys the weakened mechs.

[Modo44]

MustrumRidcully, on 26 July 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

I think the thread starter was trying to actually help new players and knowing about the current state of balance in the game, so they do not make poor choices out of ignorance or the idealistic belief about weapon balance being okay.

And it would be well and good in the noobie help subforum. Saying "those weapons always bad" here, in a general guide, just sounds silly/trolly.

[zraven7]

Modo44, on 26 July 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

And it would be well and good in the noobie help subforum. Saying "those weapons always bad" here, in a general guide, just sounds silly/trolly.

I'm not too keen about it in the Newbie help forum, either. People need to try the weapons, learn what they like and such.

[Kurkotain]

Victor Morson, on 25 July 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Everything else is downhill from there at present time. Sharply down hill. Worse yet is mixing the weapons with no rhyme of reason.

DCM Zeus would like a word with you. best multi weapons platform use of a highlander i've ever seen to date.

[Soldryn]

Time to TL;DR this thread

What the OP is trying to say (in a round about fashion) is: "here's what you SHOULD do"

1.) buy a stalker or atlas
2.) pack as many ppc's and gauss rifles as possible, use excess tonnage on DHS and ammo
3.) ridicule anyone using anything else on field
4.) complain in forums that you can't handle any other meta regarding weapons
5.) ragequit when someone tells you that your ELO aint as great as you think it is.

[zraven7]

Victor Morson, on 25 July 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Everything else is downhill from there at present time. Sharply down hill. Worse yet is mixing the weapons with no rhyme of reason.

Weapons have to rhyme now? What rhymes with "Gauss Cannon"?

[Josef Koba]

There are only a few weapon systems and platforms that I cannot use to good effect. I don't bother with SRM2s, LRM5s, SPlas, or Flamers, or AC2s that much, but that's about it. Every other weapon I can use quite well, and each has its place even if they're presently gimped. I want to love the Flamer, as has been noted, but they don't do much and generate way too much heat for me. The issue is, you can't use all the weapons interchangeably. For example, the LB10-X just isn't going to work well for you if you're using it like an AC/10. But I have found the LB10 to be brutally effective in some of my builds, especially with two of them. I get loads of component destructions and plenty of kills. A friend of mine runs three on a Cataphract (Ilya I guess) and also does well. Similarly, two AC/10s with 90 rounds on my Firebrand which goes about 90kph is a monster. Decent range; good accuracy. My Stalker 3F sports four large lasers chain fired and two large pulse lasers and I routinely pick up over 800 damage, and I'll occasionally throw on some med pulses just for the heck of it and it works too.

The only platform I can't seem to get the hang of is the Highlander. I pilot heavies and assaults exclusively, but I can't get the Highlander to be effective at all, no matter what I put on it. Every other heavy or assault I own has a K/D ratio of significantly over 1, but I'm terrible with the Highlander. I've also tried my hand at lights and mediums and I'm pretty poor with them as well.

I certainly see the OP's points, but I'm not entirely convinced. I'm not claiming to be amazing at this game, but I'm competent. I think that one of the best things about the game is that it allows for experimentation, and some pilots might find success in a build that we abhor.

[Kurkotain]

The LB10X is a niche weapon. You can't just strap one into a mech as a vanilla autocannon and expect it to work.

But, as any niche weapon, once it finds its niche it is devastating.

Favorite build for it is http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bac1977a54e13b6

Fast, packs a punch, absolutely terrifying to anything under 55 tons, quite durable for an XL mech if piloted the right way. Not enough ammo endurance to pull the whole match, but enough to seriously cripple or destroy a whole lance.

Oh and did i mention fun? cause it is a blast to pilot. picture yourself cackling maniacally as you pound lightmech after lightmech that made the mistake of trying to distract the assault component of your lance you were guarding.

Yes, it works best as a bodyguard or a close range striker/dueler. like a hunchback on steroids, if you are tired of playing the long range game with your jagermechs.

Several weapon systems are just looking for the right pilot and situation to shine. You can't just strap weapons to a mech, and fire when the enemy is on your sights, and expect it to work.

Edited by Kurkotain, 26 July 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Victor Morson, on 25 July 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

There's plenty of guides out there, but after seeing a massive decline in build quality even amongst pugs lately, I figure this is worth repeating - the list of what not to do. [BUT WHAT IF...] No, not even then! NEVER!

Oh lordy someone hold ma banjo I gots to git my whoopin stick for this one!

Quote

1: Mount a Large Pulse Laser, AC/5, AC/10, LBX/10, Machine Gun, Flamer, ER Large Laser, Medium Pulse Laser, NARC, or less LRMs (per volley) than 20. These guns are horrendous and you're already gimping your build right out of the gate with them! Try better guns.

Machine Guns are fairly light and a good support weapon on many ligths and mediums. Medium Pulse Lasers are alittle heavy, hot and very short ranged but the damage they can focus on a relatively small area can be nasty.

Quote

4: Storing your ammo in your XL Engine side. More 'mechs die to this than anything. Jam it in your arms, head, legs.. but stop sticking it in the side that will cause you to die if it blows up! I kill more 'mechs to that..

This is only a issue if you mount a large quantity of ammo in one area, generally speaking if someone is able to hit your ammo your pretty much dinnered anyways. Iv never ever ever ever lost a XL/Ammo mech to a ammo explosion, however most iv ever had on one side was 3 tons and generally had other equipment in the area such as double heat sinks.

Quote

5: Taking horrendously mismatched weaponry.

If you have a joystick or a fancy mouse with far too many buttons (Or magic fingers around the number keys) there aint nothing wrong with a little diversity in your arsenal, however such an assortment of equipment generally takes more experience to use in comparison to the 1-2 groups favored by boats and ppc+gauss chumps.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I can't say I agree with all the sweeping statements made in the OP, like the "Never, no, never" level of exaggeration.

I use twin-, tri-, quad-AC/5s to great effect as a substitute for Gauss; I use quad-LL's to great effect (the beam duration "increased" from 1 second to just over 1.5 seconds now, but it still works well); I use tri- or quad-Machineguns to great effect as a heat-free supplemental weapon system; and I put an ERLL on my Catapult C4 because the extra range is nice when your only ranged weapon is Energy and has just 2 slots.

Other advice is quite good; never assume the other team will ditch the cap for the Honor of Combat; whenever that happens, it means you already lost the match (they had your base hands-down, and that means your team failed), so everything after that is just a playfight for the sake of blowing things up... but you already lost, no matter how well that fight goes. Community Warfare will be territory-based, meaning You and Your Affiliates' K/D ratios are worthless compared to your W/L ratio. K's and D's are only means to a W/L; they, themselves, do not determine who owns the Territory.

However... a big point is that this guide may need major revisions in the upcoming patch cycles if there are significant changes to the weapons table. You might want to be careful about "never do this" kinds of statements when things are subject to change. The fact that I have been using a plethora (yes, I would say that) of different weapon types makes me quite well-fit for changes to the dominant gameplay tactic. I haven't been spending my time evolving myself into the Ultimate PPC+Gauss Sniper because I don't really anticipate PPC+Gauss Sniping to totally own MW:O forever. It's kind of why I also run Medium Mechs: why get stale at everything other than the flavor-of-the-time?

[IceSerpent]

Kurkotain, on 26 July 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Favorite build for it is http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bac1977a54e13b6

Fast, packs a punch, absolutely terrifying to anything under 55 tons, quite durable for an XL mech if piloted the right way. Not enough ammo endurance to pull the whole match, but enough to seriously cripple or destroy a whole lance.

Dude, please stop posting in the guides section of the forums, pretty please? That build is a prime candidate for the "worst Jager build ever created" award.

[Victor Morson]

NRP, on 25 July 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

So let's look at where we're at now: LLs are not usable. LPLs are not useable. Streaks are not usable. PPCs are about to become unusable.

To be fair, however, noone complained at all about LPLs or LLs, and they got nerf'ed because some people at PGI have no idea what they're doing with weapon balance. That's all. Everybody in every community is annoyed with that happening and it wasn't because of whiners.

The first LRM nerf would be better to equate with whining nerfs. Or I suppose the medium laser nerf, since they did that to react to Swaybacks, which were a problem over a year ago!

Windsaw, on 25 July 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

One build where I use the LPL is a very fast Centurion that has just the missile weapon and an energy.

3 SRM6 + 2 ML will be superior to that every single time.

Windsaw, on 25 July 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

Can't say they are. There have been trash weapons (not Vic's list: his list is way too big) since I started and I don't think they have become more. Sometimes one is added, sometimes one is removed.

The only list that's not good is the usable weapons one.

[Victor Morson]

gldgti, on 26 July 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

Victor, I think I know where you're coming from - but there are some areas where your own gaming experience may not have yet proved sufficient with certain weapons to find their uses.

Much of why I am saying what I am has to do with objective testing of weapons in controlled and competitive environments. Because a weapon can still output damage does not make it a 1st tier weapon worthy of recommendation.

Again, if people ignore you and you are in a super low ELO match-up, you can sit behind someone with a MG until you get 1k damage. You wouldn't get 10 against top tier designs with the same setup.

gldgti, on 26 July 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

For instance, the med pulse laser.... In my experience, a very useful weapon. My most successful build, a phract 1x, has 5 of them with an ac20. If I change them to medium lasers, it make very little difference to my scores, but I average lower. Ok, so on this particular build, taking out my own piloting skill - I might say that the ML and MPL are similarly effective.

Medium Pulse is not the worst of the Pulse family (Large Pulse earns that) but overall, they just aren't worth paying 5 extra tons for, in particular since you say the average is slight. Instead you could re-purpose that 5 tons on your 1x and likely jam a PPC on with the AC/20 and 4 medium lasers - just 2 tons difference.

See what I'm saying? It's not a horrendous weapon perhaps but the drawbacks of it's weight is gimping your 'mech past that.

gldgti, on 26 July 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

Take that down to the light mechs though, and it can get very strange. I have a SPD-5D with 3 MPL - by FAR my most effective light mech build. If I change it to 3 ML, I cannot get the same scores..... the speed of the mech coupled with the shorter duration means the pulse laser helps me land that much more per salvo, and ofcourse being fast the distance to taget is not so much an issue.

It's the 0.25 reduced burn time on Pulse Lasers. But focusing a build around specifically killing Spiders is rough.

gldgti, on 26 July 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

Another case is my DRG-1N. Man, I was convinced there was no build I could make that would make it successful for me. I went 20-30 matches with not more than about 250 damage, trying stuff.

Then I gave up on it for a few weeks. After a while, I came back and tried a build with 'spares' in my parts bucket - an ERPPC, 2xSRM4, and a LBX-10. Brilliant! - I was getting solid matches out of it. Then I swapped the LBX10 for an AC-10, and I was (predictably) getting not too dissimilar matches out of it.

Then, I tried 2xAC5 instead of the AC 10, and swapped the ERPPC for 2xML (needed the tonnage) and with a slight adjustment in play style, seeing double the DMG per match I was before.

I guess thats a pretty long winded way of saying that atleast personally, I am having fun with all the weapons, and since this is gaming at a non-competative level - lets all have fun.

Again, knowingly taking inferior 'mechs and weapons because you're screwing around is not the same as recommending good builds to newbies. You are literally saying "I like the flashy graphics on this weapon setup, so therefor I will say it's good and recommend it" in the end.

This thread is about recommending new players to good builds, not ones that are "the most fun." The ones that help you actually win.

gldgti, on 26 July 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

I would love if the LPL weighed 5 tonnes instead of 7. I would also love it if double heat sinks only took up 2 slots instead of 3 - but I still have fun, regardless - and I would encourage everyone to experiment with builds, because we all play differently, and what works for some may not work for others.

Or they could just fix them. Once upon a time, a year ago, LPL was awesome. They nerfed it for "reasons" and let it linger for this long. At the current rate, it will be a great weapon again in 2015.