47 replies to this topic

[James The Fox Dixon]

According to lore, jump jets do have velocity to them and a mech moves at their walking speed in the air. By having velocity they are able to move in a single direction regardless of their facing similar to a Harrier jump jet, but at a faster speed.

I propose that for every jump capable mech that each jump jet is a percentage of a mech's ground speed, so for example, the Spider 5D has 8 Jump Jets and has a top speed of 137.7 without Speed Tweak, each jump jet would provide 17.2125 kph of velocity/momentum. However, having less jump jets would lower the maximum velocity/momentum just like a lower rated engine would lower ground speed. The same Spider with 6 jump jets would only have a maximum of 103.2 kph of velocity/momentum.

EDIT: I forgot to put in the formula I used. Take the maximum ground speed (without Speed Tweak) and divide that by the maximum number of jump jets a mech can carry to get the constant value for each jump jet. If a mech mounts less than the maximum number of jump jets the velocity/momentum is determined by taking the constant value and multiplying it by the number of jump jets on the chassis.

EDIT: On TS, I was given a lot of feedback on this implementation of jump jets. One of the suggestions was to hit the jump key then hit a directional key which would launch the mech in a specific direction. For example, a Spider 5D pilot hits the spacebar to jump then hits A to jump to the left. This locks in the direction of the mech. Hitting a combination of A+S would result in a diagonal jump to the back and left. All mechs, except the Spider, are locked into this direction but can orientate themselves to any facing. Spiders, as per lore, can change their direction during their jumps.

After choosing direction, the pilot would keep hitting the spacebar to keep the jump jets going as it is now.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 25 July 2013 - 04:04 PM.

[Snowhawk]

Well... sounds interesting, Picard would say: http://www.youtube.c...e&v=-ZxHAZChcYU

[James The Fox Dixon]

It does two things. First, it makes jump jet mechs capable of what they're supposed to be able to do in lore/TT. Secondly, it makes the mechs harder to hit which is also according to lore/TT.

[TehSBGX]

One thing though, Different Mechs have different kinds of Jump jets. Each type likely has different thrust properties. If the idea can be tweaked to also factor in what kind of Jump Jets a mech has it would be pretty sweet.

[R Razor]

While I agree that it's not a bad idea, just about nobody around here gives a crap about lore. The folks around here think lore means every IS mech is part omni-mech (hence the open ended weapons loadouts available) and that their particular build should never be nerfed because it's not fair if it is.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

So basically LL jumpjets

[James The Fox Dixon]

TehSBGX, on 25 July 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

One thing though, Different Mechs have different kinds of Jump jets. Each type likely has different thrust properties. If the idea can be tweaked to also factor in what kind of Jump Jets a mech has it would be pretty sweet.

So you would like the addition that say lighter jump jets have less thrust over heavier jump jets that have higher thrust. For example, a .5 ton jump jet would have less thrust than the 2 ton jump jet, so you would have to mount more of them to get equal amount of thrust. It definitely makes sense and explains why the lighter mechs can move farther and faster than the heavier mechs due to mounting more jump jets. Sort of like a small rocket vs. a larger rocket in terms of thrust provided.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Jump Jets do not have a 1 to 1 ratio with top run speed.
Max speed in MWO = 16.2 x walk speed (in TT) [due to varying engines in chassis it is calculated as Engine Rating/Mech Weight x 16.2]

Jump Jet speed is not based on "max move speed" it is a fixed and finite number that exactly corrisponds with the tabletop movement system, which an be extrapolated as 10.8 KPH per jumpjet, so we end up with.


1 JJ = 10.8 kph
2 JJ = 16.2 kph
3 JJ = 32.4 kph
4 JJ = 40.5 kph
5 JJ = 48.6 kph
6 JJ = 59.4 kph
7 JJ = 70.2 kph
8 JJ = 81.0 kph
9 JJ = 97.2 kph
10 JJ = 108.0 kph
11 JJ = 118.8 kph
12 JJ = 129.6 kph

Of course opening the mementum and physics can-o-worms means jumping mechs might actually have to take damage from falling, not the current token damage, but actuall calculated, slam into the earth at Height x 9.8 m/s x planet gravity multiplier.

[Roland]

MWO already has mappings defined in its configuration files for directional JJ's.

They are very hard to balance though. MW2's JJ's were ridiculous, and not even remotely close to balanced.

[General Taskeen]

I'll just leave this here:



^ the most balanced Battle Tech Jump Jets to date

Edited by General Taskeen, 25 July 2013 - 08:49 AM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 25 July 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

Jump Jets do not have a 1 to 1 ratio with top run speed.
Max speed in MWO = 16.2 x walk speed (in TT) [due to varying engines in chassis it is calculated as Engine Rating/Mech Weight x 16.2]

Jump Jet speed is not based on "max move speed" it is a fixed and finite number that exactly corrisponds with the tabletop movement system, which an be extrapolated as 10.8 KPH per jumpjet, so we end up with.


1 JJ = 10.8 kph
2 JJ = 16.2 kph
3 JJ = 32.4 kph
4 JJ = 40.5 kph
5 JJ = 48.6 kph
6 JJ = 59.4 kph
7 JJ = 70.2 kph
8 JJ = 81.0 kph
9 JJ = 97.2 kph
10 JJ = 108.0 kph
11 JJ = 118.8 kph
12 JJ = 129.6 kph

Of course opening the mementum and physics can-o-worms means jumping mechs might actually have to take damage from falling, not the current token damage, but actuall calculated, slam into the earth at Height x 9.8 m/s x planet gravity multiplier.

I went with maximum ground movement without speed tweak to simplify it. The entire system is far more simpler than what you've posted, but I do like it. However, there is a problem that with what you're written makes it easy to hit a jumping mech which isn't the case in lore.

[Roland]

General Taskeen, on 25 July 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

I'll just leave this here:

^ the most balanced Battle Tech Jump Jets to date

I'm not sure you can really justify the statement that they were the most balanced JJ's to date.

They are certainly much more powerful than JJ's in a game like MWO, but that does not translate into better balanced.

I suspect that if you gave those abilities to some of the better light pilots in MWO, they would absolutely ruin your face, and you wouldn't even be able to touch them.

[Vinterslag]

While I'd want to personally play this formula before saying its perfect, this seems much more along the lines of how JJs should work. we should not lose speed while flying near as much. Look at this thread Piranha.

[TehSBGX]

James The Fox Dixon, on 25 July 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

So you would like the addition that say lighter jump jets have less thrust over heavier jump jets that have higher thrust. For example, a .5 ton jump jet would have less thrust than the 2 ton jump jet, so you would have to mount more of them to get equal amount of thrust. It definitely makes sense and explains why the lighter mechs can move farther and faster than the heavier mechs due to mounting more jump jets. Sort of like a small rocket vs. a larger rocket in terms of thrust provided.

Something like that, yep. It Seems to make sense, although I'm not really all that familiar with physics it would seem to be the way it would work.

[Gallowglas]

We need some sort of directional velocity control in order to circumvent the issue with getting stuck on a hillside because you've lost all forward momentum and can only jump straight up.

[Team Leader]

I think JJs should be balanced to max engine size of the variant, divided by the max available JJs of the entire chassis, so that there would be an advantage to having lots and lots of JJs on a mech. Take the spider for example. The worst variant has 12 JJ max, the other two have 8 max. They all mount a 255 max engine. So for a spider each JJ would add 21.25 kph of thrust. But the other spiders would only be able to mount 170 kph of thrust as opposed to 255kph of thrust and what the heck I have no idea waht Im talking about. But you know, something based on the max JJs for a chassis and incorporate weight into that somewhere.

[Bors Mistral]

JJ in MW:O really need some work. That much is clear.

The very minimum would be control over forward trust.
If we can also use them as acceleration assist, sweet.
And if there was more noticeable difference between taking 2 or 4, that'd be great too.
And while we are at it, increase the jump distance too.

--- can we make them work like in Tribes: Ascend?
--- OK, that's maybe pushing it...

[Team Leader]

Bors Mistral, on 25 July 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

JJ in MW:O really need some work. That much is clear.

The very minimum would be control over forward trust.
If we can also use them as acceleration assist, sweet.
And if there was more noticeable difference between taking 2 or 4, that'd be great too.
And while we are at it, increase the jump distance too.

--- can we make them work like in Tribes: Ascend?
--- OK, that's maybe pushing it...

Agreed with that. Only 12 JJ spider should be Tribes level lol

[Suri Curume]

Roland, on 25 July 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

I'm not sure you can really justify the statement that they were the most balanced JJ's to date.

They are certainly much more powerful than JJ's in a game like MWO, but that does not translate into better balanced.

I suspect that if you gave those abilities to some of the better light pilots in MWO, they would absolutely ruin your face, and you wouldn't even be able to touch them.

I love the shown implementation of JJ, but it would turn my SDR-5V into an Armored Core...

Wait, why are my pants tighter?

[James The Fox Dixon]

On TS, I was given a lot of feedback on this implementation of jump jets. One of the suggestions was to hit the jump key then hit a directional key which would launch the mech in a specific direction. For example, a Spider 5D pilot hits the spacebar to jump then hits A to jump to the left. This locks in the direction of the mech. Hitting a combination of A+S would result in a diagonal jump to the back and left. All mechs, except the Spider, are locked into this direction but can orientate themselves to any facing. Spiders, as per lore, can change their direction during their jumps.

After choosing direction, the pilot would keep hitting the spacebar to keep the jump jets going as it is now.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 25 July 2013 - 11:05 AM.