519 replies to this topic

[hammerreborn]

Tolkien, on 26 July 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

You make yourself very hard to get along with but I'll help you out. http://www.xfire.com/games/mwo

The average per day during december was around 120-140, so it's fallen by 1/3 in the last 6 months. It's currently the ~230th most popular game tracked by Xfire for PC.

(I know xfire is a small cross section of gamers but it's the best data we have on the actual number of players playing this game daily as compared to other titles, and as compared over time.)

If you honestly think that 120 people per day is an accurate portrayal of how many people were playing in December (when they actually announced that they had the most people log on ever mid month) I have a bridge to sell you.

And as I said before, arguing xfire stats is like arguing that no one plays video games anymore because all my Gamespy Arcade friends aren't logged in.

Hell, even Steam isn't a good indicator for a game like Marvel Heroes because a good portion of the player base dled the client before it was even available.

So ya, if you're arguing 120 people, 40 of which have left (which isn't even proof that they stopped playing MWO, they could have finally realized that xfire is useless and old) is a clear indication of the game dying. That's pretty much the definition of anectotal when there are thousands of players logging in a day.

Chronojam, on 26 July 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

You already provided this in the very post about which he claimed you provided no evidence. I expect he will dismiss the numbers offhand with a snarky comment, because it runs contrary to his own narrative and he's not legitimately interested in addressing any issues.

Edited by hammerreborn, 26 July 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[BlueSanta]

Niko Snow, on 26 July 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Yes. Each player agreed to the Terms of Use, each player must abide by the Code of Conduct.
Neither these rules nor the basic standards of respect and dignity change simply because they happen to be unhappy with the pace of development or are frustrated that their idea wasn't picked above others for a solution to gameplay balance concerns. As per my caution, you can vent those feelings publicly if you so desire, but do so with the Conduct in mind.

Niko, if I want to protest something YOU or another one of your goons has done, I have to file an appeal, and that appeal goes before the community management team, which includes YOU and other moderators who do this censoring. Tell me how that makes sense and is a fair shake to US?

Source (support ticket #74779):
"From IGP, the CM team includes: miSs, Viterbi, Chris K, SayChowder, Niko Snow, and Primus of Comstar."

Reply from Niko:
A: We aren't unreasonable people. When you contact us via support with a concern on moderation: We re-investigate the situation and discuss as a group whether it was handled correctly. If not, we determine whether there needs to be changes made to our standardized protocols for handling moderation situations. We are open to these reviews when they are challenged through support, however there is zero-tolerance to attempting to subvert our moderation publicly on the forums. Parley...saavy?

Reply to Niko:
Any group that moderates itself is not trustworthy. I do not trust any one of you to ever admit that you have ever done anything wrong on these forums.

Edited by BlueSanta, 26 July 2013 - 12:17 PM.
Answered

[Tolkien]

Not at all hammer - if you read the chart it's not saying 120 people, it's saying X people played 120 hours. So of the ~200k active users Xfire claims to have they are saying that on those days about 120 total hours of their time went into this particular game.

I know Xfire is a small cross section of gamers but unlike MWO they actually report their active player base, so I trust their numbers much more.

[Kraven Kor]

And sure, if someone is just being a raging jerkface, I'm right there with the moderators.

I was more making a general point about how we have found ourselves here.

Will PGI even make a single comment acknowledging the concerns of many Founders and players?

That is why my first response here was what it was, and I stick by it unless I find out PGI is changing their ways. I'm a reasonable man; but when the devs go Baghdad Bob and laud their progress and player numbers on the same day "we" were putting on #savemwo (I had only just heard about it earlier in the week.) I don't know what to say.

Tons of things are "good" about this game. There is even some good information in this CDU, though again a lot of it was already known.

But the hostile relationship between PGI and their customers can only be fixed by PGI. I have no recommendations on how to best filter the noise from the signal, so to speak, but then I'm not running a game design studio for precisely that reason.

[Chronojam]

Tolkien, on 26 July 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Not at all hammer - if you read the chart it's not saying 120 people, it's saying X people played 120 hours. So of the ~200k active users Xfire claims to have they are saying that on those days about 120 total hours of their time went into this particular game.

I know Xfire is a small cross section of gamers but unlike MWO they actually report their active player base, so I trust their numbers much more.

Some people do not understand statistics.

[StuffYouFear]

While I applaud yall as a company taking the time to provide this information when it is not a industry standard, I must say that it could haven summed up quickly with "Lava map next week and 3rd person test next week."

Everything else is basically not hard facts and subject to most likely being changed 5 times before it is implemented.

As far as PPCs and ERPPCs go have you even once, just once, thought about setting them back to the heat, cooldown, and minimal ranges you had back in the very frist of the year when you had NONE of these issues with boating yet the stalker and double heat sinks where still present?

Why, for the love of god, do normal PPCs do any damage at all, under 90 meters?

Shesh this was a waste of my lunch break to read.

[Tolkien]

Actually hammer I'll go one further:

Crossfire users put in 317,000 hours of game time this week (see xfire.com)

Of that, roughly 86 per day was MWO for a total of 600 ish hours.

This is 0.18% of the games market on PC.

Even if we decide that Xfire users have something in common that makes them 2x less likely to run MWO than the average PC gamer, we can be pretty sure that MWO has less than a half percentage point of the PC games market.

[hammerreborn]

Tolkien, on 26 July 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Not at all hammer - if you read the chart it's not saying 120 people, it's saying X people played 120 hours. So of the ~200k active users Xfire claims to have they are saying that on those days about 120 total hours of their time went into this particular game.

I know Xfire is a small cross section of gamers but unlike MWO they actually report their active player base, so I trust their numbers much more.

Hilarity.

I don't even know why I'm wasting time with someone that thinks XFIRE is somehow a good indicator of mechwarriors success.

In december, Devs announced highest player count ever.

In closed beta, the highest people saw concurrent online was somewhere around 10k.

Lets now argue that only one more person showed up in december, and just say it was 10k again.

Let's now say that those people all logged only a single hour, or 10000 hours.

(120/10000)*100 is 1.2% of the population, BEING EXTREMELY AND ABOSUTELY CONSERVATIVE IN YOUR FAVOR.

If you then argue that 1/3 of those people dropped from the game (and let's actually argue they did and not just realized they were still using xfire and proceeded to kill themselves in shame), you've lost only .4% of the total population, or 40 people.

EVERYONE ABANDON SHIP

Edited by hammerreborn, 26 July 2013 - 10:43 AM.

[L Y N X]

Is the plan to have UI2.0 and CW at launch?

My friends are losing interest and I've pledged to not spend another dime from my wallet until I see CW. I'm a total mech-head so you'll not lose me but my friends are saying, justifiably, that there is no reason to keep playing. I am hoping CW provides that reason... you guys need to give players a reason or your player base will burn out faster than you gain new players... I'm sure you are aware of this already, so any updates on CW would be appreciated.

Edited by 7ynx, 26 July 2013 - 10:42 AM.

[Niknud]

365 days ago I had a lot of hope for this game. I was in the closed beta and was impressed with everything about the game. Now fast forward to today and I am like a completely different person. Now instead of potential I just see failure. Failure to balance a game. Failure to keep deadlines. Failure to listen to your player base. Failure to get off your high horse and realize that your vision [Redacted] is going to destroy this game before it even gets out of beta. There is one good thing this game has done for me and that's stopped me from purchasing games before they go live and it has saved me money on them so thank you for that.

Edited by Niko Snow, 26 July 2013 - 11:09 AM.
Don't call out individual staff members like that, please and thank you.

[hammerreborn]

7ynx, on 26 July 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

Is the plan to have UI2.0 and CW at launch?

My friends are losing interest and I've pledged to not spend another dime from my wallet until I see CW. I'm a total mech-head so you'll not lose me but my friends are saying, justifiably, that there is no reason to keep playing. I am hoping CW provides that reason... you guys need to give players a reason or your player base will burn out faster than you gain new players... I'm sure you are aware of this already, so any updates on CW would be appreciated.

I think ATD 43 top question is this. So hopefully by the end of the day we'll see something.

[Aware]

hammerreborn, on 26 July 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

I think ATD 43 top question is this. So hopefully by the end of the day we'll see something.

It was the top question in ATD 42 as well........

[Tolkien]

hammerreborn, on 26 July 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

Hilarity.

I don't even know why I'm wasting time with someone that thinks XFIRE is somehow a good indicator of mechwarriors success.

In december, Devs announced highest player count ever.

In closed beta, the highest people saw concurrent online was somewhere around 10k.

Lets now argue that only one more person showed up in december, and just say it was 10k again.

Let's now say that those people all logged only a single hour, or 10000 hours.

(120/10000)*100 is 1.2% of the population, BEING EXTREMELY AND ABOSUTELY CONSERVATIVE IN YOUR FAVOR.

If you then argue that 1/3 of those people dropped from the game (and let's actually argue they did and not just realized they were still using xfire and proceeded to kill themselves in shame), you've lost only .4% of the total population, or 40 people.

EVERYONE ABANDON SHIP

I wasn't aware the highest active player total was set way back in December and confirmed by PGI - corroborates what Xfire says about the game losing active players faster than it's gaining them. Thanks for the confirmation.

Since your argument boils down to not trusting the only independent source of day to day played hour statistics, we're at an impasse. I think independent measures are important and more trustworthy since they are not financially motivated to put up a big number for any specific title. You apparently disagree and think that there is no information to be gleaned from Xfire either in terms of the relative popularity of MWO relative to better known titles, or to the trend of active players over time.

I disagree, but we just aren't going to see eye to eye on this one.

Please let me know if you find another source that tracks daily hours played across a cross section of 10's of thousands of gamers as I would be very happy to know about it.

Edited by Tolkien, 26 July 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

I have one question:
how exactly do you create an account solely for the game, without forum access? I don't think it's possible, so that would mean forum users number = players number, and that's nowhere near one million

[[A: Players who Register and login to the game client without visiting the forums. Until the first logged-in visit to the forums, no forum account is created.]]

Edit: thanks, Niko. Well, that was a quick one

Edited by Krzysztof z Bagien, 26 July 2013 - 11:01 AM.
Answered

[L Y N X]

Problem? Yes, the game is lacking a compelling reason to keep playing it...well for those who are not mech-heads like myself.

[hammerreborn]

Tolkien, on 26 July 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

I wasn't aware the highest active player total was set way back in December and confirmed by PGI - corroborates what Xfire says about the game losing active players faster than it's gaining them. Thanks for the confirmation.

Since your argument boils down to not trusting the only independent source of day to day played hour statistics, we're at an impasse. I think independent measures are important and more trustworthy since they are not financially motivated to put up a big number for any specific title. You apparently disagree and think that there is no information to be gleaned from Xfire either in terms of the relative popularity of MWO relative to better known titles, or to the trend of active players over time.

I disagree, but we just aren't going to see eye to eye on this one.

Please let me know if you find another source that tracks daily hours played across a cross section of 10's of thousands of gamers as I would be very happy to know about it.

If anyone actually important actually used xfire it would be something. But even with the most generous of assumptions in your favor puts xfire users at barely 1% of the total population (and real reasoning would put them at far far far less, as there were certainly more players in december than there was in closed beta), in which case your numbers become even less significant.

And seeing PGI has said the numbers have only grown and we just hit over a million players who have played at least a single game, your 40 person anecdote doesn't mean anything (.004%) that you can't even say without a doubt actually stopped playing MWO and didn't just quit xfire instead.

Let's just even go with the numbers you said. 200k people on xfire (if you trust their numbers), 1 million people have played MWO. So, even if every single person on xfire has played MWO they wouldn't even account for 20% of the population that has ever logged a single game.

It's a useless meaningless statistic that has no real correlection to the game and absolutely no proof that the players have actually quit instead of using an archaic and outdated gaming tool.

I put more stock in peoples "I used to have 10 people in my group but now its just 2" than I do xfire.

[Tolkien]

hammerreborn, on 26 July 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

If anyone actually important actually used xfire it would be something. But even with the most generous of assumptions in your favor puts xfire users at barely 1% of the total population (and real reasoning would put them at far far far less, as there were certainly more players in december than there was in closed beta), in which case your numbers become even less significant.

And seeing PGI has said the numbers have only grown and we just hit over a million players who have played at least a single game, your 40 person anecdote doesn't mean anything (.004%) that you can't even say without a doubt actually stopped playing MWO and didn't just quit xfire instead.

Let's just even go with the numbers you said. 200k people on xfire (if you trust their numbers), 1 million people have played MWO. So, even if every single person on xfire has played MWO they wouldn't even account for 20% of the population that has ever logged a single game.

It's a useless meaningless statistic that has no real correlection to the game and absolutely no proof that the players have actually quit instead of using an archaic and outdated gaming tool.

I put more stock in peoples "I used to have 10 people in my group but now its just 2" than I do xfire.

Marketing and PR 101 says that if the real numbers were better than what Xfire implies in terms of currently active players they would be trumpeting it from the rooftops. Announcing proudly that a number that can only grow has hit a million has to be taken along side the fact that they announced 9.6 million hours of gameplay from the playerbase.

That means that everyone who has ever registered has on average played less than 10 hours before stopping. For everyone like me who has played thousands of games there will be many players who try one or two drops and head for the door never (within the last several months) to come back.

From here http://venturebeat.c...g-in-september/

Quote

[color=#000000]More than 1.1 million players have registered to play the game during its open-beta phase, according to IGP. During that time, those robot warriors played a total of 9.6 million hours, demolished 46 million mechs, and fired more than 12.6 billion missiles.[/color]

Less than 10 hours per head says this game has player retention problems. QED.

Edited by Tolkien, 26 July 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[Lostdragon]

Kraven Kor, on 26 July 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

And sure, if someone is just being a raging jerkface, I'm right there with the moderators.

I was more making a general point about how we have found ourselves here.

Will PGI even make a single comment acknowledging the concerns of many Founders and players?

That is why my first response here was what it was, and I stick by it unless I find out PGI is changing their ways. I'm a reasonable man; but when the devs go Baghdad Bob and laud their progress and player numbers on the same day "we" were putting on #savemwo (I had only just heard about it earlier in the week.) I don't know what to say.

Tons of things are "good" about this game. There is even some good information in this CDU, though again a lot of it was already known.

But the hostile relationship between PGI and their customers can only be fixed by PGI. I have no recommendations on how to best filter the noise from the signal, so to speak, but then I'm not running a game design studio for precisely that reason.

Save your breath... err, key strokes. They are obviously not concerned about how we have reached this point or taking action to fix it or there would have already been some communication and explanation. At this point I am just starting to accept the fact that MWO is not going to turn out how it was originally pitched and is probably not going to be a game I play for years as I originally thought it would be.

I decided a while back not to spend any more money until I saw movement in a positive direction. I have not spent a dime since then and nothing on the table at this time is likely to change that. The "big things in July" has turned out to be majorly disappointing. I have already cut back my play time a lot and I don't see that trend reversing.

[Jakob Knight]

Niko Snow, on 26 July 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Yes. Each player agreed to the Terms of Use, each player must abide by the Code of Conduct.
Neither these rules nor the basic standards of respect and dignity change simply because they happen to be unhappy with the pace of development or are frustrated that their idea wasn't picked above others for a solution to gameplay balance concerns. As per my caution, you can vent those feelings publicly if you so desire, but do so with the Conduct in mind.

Niko, the standards of respect and dignity I am familiar with are the cause of many of the problems between the Devs and the playerbase who actually understand the concepts. It isn't necessarily that the person's own idea isn't implemented (though I grant there are plenty of players who will not rest and will take any means necessary to ensure their idea is what happens), but that -no- change is implemented when one is clearly needed and is indicated as an action that will be taken, as evidenced by the ECM issue (ECM, to date, has not been changed at all from the first day it was implemented, despite clear and logical evidence it was overpowered. Other items have been changed in an effort to appease the situation, but the promised tweeks to ECM itself have never happened).

The issue is amplified when the Devs act contrary to their stated intents, with 3PV, Coolant Flush, and the removal of Artillery as a weapon in the game (now it's a consumable) all examples of this. The actions of PGI in this regard certainly point to a lack of respectable behavior and anything but a dignified view of the playerbase. Indeed, I think many would call the above an example of lying and/or misdirection (is misdirection really different than lying?).

Many of us understand the realities of game design and corporate management, but we also know conduct as above cannot be excused by such. This leaves the reasons for these actions in the realms of either poor corporate standards (which call into question the competance of the people of the company) or direct personal disrespect of the managers of the company towards their customers (which call into question the amount of respect to be shown the company by the customer). Both of these only serve to erode the relations between the Devs and the Playerbase, and are fully the responsibility of the Devs.

Are the players who constantly harp on the Devs to change the game to their preferred way of playing or simply seek to use any excuse as a means for personal drama also to blame for the deterioration? Certainly. However, that doesn't mean there aren't very good reasons others have been given by the Devs to feel their relation is becoming polarized (yes, I remember when we used to think the Devs played this game the same way we did).

Edited by Jakob Knight, 26 July 2013 - 11:43 AM.

[DeRazer]

Having just played Sarah's mech I would like to say,

"Great job PGI!"

Lovely work there and such a great cause. The attention to detail there proves to me what you can do - I have greater faith now in this game than at any time in the last 4 months.

More please!