42 replies to this topic

[Bhael Fire]

New Module Category: Armor

This category would be for armor augmentations and enhancements.

Reactive Armor Module: Reduces damage from missiles by 10% for Basic and 20% for Advanced. Can't be used with Reflective or Hardened Armor modules. This module slows the mech down by 10% and stacks with other speed penalties. Cost: 5000 GXP to unlock Basic and 10,000 GXP to unlock Advanced. Each module costs 6,000,000 C-Bills.

Reflective Armor Module: Reduces damage from energy weapons by 10% for Basic and 20% for Advanced. Can't be used with Reactive or Hardened Armor modules. This module slows the mech down by 10% and stacks with other speed penalties. Cost: 5000 GXP to unlock Basic and 10,000 GXP to unlock Advanced. Each module costs 6,000,000 C-Bills.

Hardened Armor Module: Reduces damage from ballistics by 10% for Basic and 20% for Advanced. Can't be used with Reflective or Reactive Armor modules. This module slows the mech down by 10% and stacks with other speed penalties. Cost: 5000 GXP to unlock Basic and 10,000 GXP to unlock Advanced. Each module costs 6,000,000 C-Bills.

Heavy Armor Module: Increases total equipped armor points by 10% for Basic and 20% for Advanced. However, this module slows the mech's top speed down by 10%. Cost: 10,000 GXP to unlock Basic and 20,000 GXP to unlock Advanced. Each module costs 10,000,000 C-Bills.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 30 July 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Depending on the timeline, this could work.

[Bhael Fire]

I think they have decided to abandon the timeline consistency. It's basically just a general period between the years of 3049 to 3065 . And it's not like they have been completely faithful to BT canon thus far with regard to TT rules. I don't think the addition of these modules would stray from the spirit of the those rules, given the nature of the game.

[Strum Wealh]

Bhael Fire, on 25 July 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

New Module Category: Armor

This category would be for armor augmentations and enhancements.

Reactive Armor Module: Reduces damage from missiles by 10% for Basic and 20% for Advanced. Can't be used with Reflective or Hardened Armor modules. Cost: 5000 GXP to unlock Basic and 10,000 GXP to unlock Advanced. Each module costs 6,000,000 C-Bills.
Reflective Armor Module: Reduces damage from energy weapons by 10% for Basic and 20% for Advanced. Can't be used with Reactive or Hardened Armor modules. Cost: 5000 GXP to unlock Basic and 10,000 GXP to unlock Advanced. Each module costs 6,000,000 C-Bills.
Hardened Armor Module: Reduces damage from ballistics by 10% for Basic and 20% for Advanced. Can't be used with Reflective or Reactive Armor modules. Cost: 5000 GXP to unlock Basic and 10,000 GXP to unlock Advanced. Each module costs 6,000,000 C-Bills.
Heavy Armor Module: Increases total equipped armor points by 10% for Basic and 20% for Advanced. However, this module slows the mech's top speed down by 10%. Cost: 10,000 GXP to unlock Basic and 20,000 GXP to unlock Advanced. Each module costs 10,000,000 C-Bills.

Rather than Modules, I would prefer to see armor types released as actual armor types.

In general, I do not like the notion of the module system replacing actual equipment and/or capabilities that are or should be inherent to such equipment. Augmenting the already-present abilities of such equipment is (IMO) okay, but outright replacement of such equipment (as suggested in the OP) is (IMO) very much not okay.

Especially when one considers that part of the trade-off for a number of the advanced armor types over Standard Armor was the consumption of critical spaces (14 criticals for IS Reactive Armor and 10 criticals for IS Reflective Armor; halved for the Clan-tech counterparts) or tonnage (Hardened Armor of both tech bases offered only 50% of the per-ton armor points of Standard Armor, meaning that it took considerably more tonnage consumed to achieve "maximum armor protection").
The Module proposal, as originally written, inherently removes those trade-offs.

And then there are still the timeline considerations - Hardened Armor (which reduces the damage from all weapons, not just ballistics, by 50%) should be available to the IS now (though the Clans don't get it until 3061), but Reflective Armor isn't available until 3058 for the IS (3061 for the Clans) and Reactive Armor isn't available until 3063 for the IS (3065 for the Clans).
And the OP's "heavy armor module" concept is covered by Modular Armor, which isn't available to the IS (via ComStar) until 3072 (3074 for the Clans, via Clan Wolf-in-Exile).

Bhael Fire, on 25 July 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

I think they have decided to abandon the timeline consistency. It's basically just a general period between the years of 3049 to 3065 . And it's not like they have been completely faithful to BT canon thus far with regard to TT rules. I don't think the addition of these modules would stray from the spirit of the those rules, given the nature of the game.

That was actually said (by Russ Bullock in NGNG # 79, starting at around the 24:50 mark) with regard to the timeline was:
"The timeline was interesting at first. It was kinda cool with the tweets and everything, but it's not a very... it's not really a driving factor anymore, it's a minor tidbit. It really... the only importance left there is that people say 'Yes, stick to it!' because they want their Clans, right. Otherwise, it's not a very important aspect; it's more important to have a quality game across the board."

Taken in context, the above statement was made in reference to when certain in-universe events (e.g. the arrival of the Clans, the Battle of (Planet XYZ), etc) might happen - that we would/should happen to be in the middle of the fourth wave (of five waves) of the Clan Invasion is not terribly important by comparison to getting MWO as a product to a point in its development where it could be considered launch-ready by mid-September, and changes to when "important timeline event X" happens must, by necessity, be made in deference to this fact.

Given the continued absence of post-Clan 'Mech chassis & variants, weapons, and other equipment, we can still reasonably assume that the Devs may be planning to return to the timeline as a concept once the "big push to launch" is done (so that the various "important timeline event X" situations can be used for in-game events), and that available 'Mechs and equipment are (apparently) still to be governed by timeline availability as a result.

[Bhael Fire]

Strum Wealh, on 26 July 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

Augmenting the already-present abilities of such equipment is (IMO) okay, but outright replacement of such equipment (as suggested in the OP) is (IMO) very much not okay.

The Armor modules would augment the mech's existing armor; they would not replace it. The module system I suggested makes the assumption that the mech's armor is fortified to specialize in diffusing specific types of damage — as opposed to being an actual type of armor unto itself. Thus, both ferro-fibrous and standard armor could be augmented to offer better protection against certain types of damage.

Using the module system is an ideal way to implement the role of these augmentations in a practical way that fits in well with the existing game. Introducing them as modules makes them feel more like a prototype technology that only exceptional pilots have access to, rather than standard equipment that anyone can buy. While it's different than the written rules of the TT game and the timeline, it's very much in the spirit of those rules and would fit in well with the current game.

[Hellcat420]

armor is already doubled i dont think we need any more armor buffs.

[Bhael Fire]

Hellcat420, on 26 July 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

armor is already doubled i dont think we need any more armor buffs.

It's not so much of a direct buff as a tactical option. Sacrificing a module slot to have increased protection is a major trade-off. Another reason I think advanced armor like Reactive and Reflective should be part of the module system and NOT be standard equipment available for purchase.

[Bendak]

As much as I'd like to see the armour types I personally can't see past the fact this belongs in the mech lab, not modules.

[Animus Corpus]

i like the idea and would use it if implimented

[Bhael Fire]

Bendak, on 27 July 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

As much as I'd like to see the armour types I personally can't see past the fact this belongs in the mech lab, not modules.

At first glance that seems to makes sense.

But after thinking about for a while, that would suggest that advanced armor is normal equipment, available to all. But that is not in the spirit of the TT rules. Originally, advanced armor was rare and considered to be a "prototype technology."

Therefore, it actually makes more sense to include it as part of the module system. This would set it apart from standard equipment and make it even harder to come by — which is exactly why things like seismic sensors, UAVs, coolant, etc. is part of the module system instead of the standard equipment in mechlab.

If advanced armor is to be implemented in MWO, the module system is the best place for it.

[James The Fox Dixon]

All of the other armor types should be in the mech lab available as new upgrades to existing armor. It should not be done as modules.

[Lord of All]

I would like it as a loadout option but not a module. If you add that to the poll I will change my vote.

[Strum Wealh]

Bhael Fire, on 27 July 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

At first glance that seems to makes sense.

But after thinking about for a while, that would suggest that advanced armor is normal equipment, available to all. But that is not in the spirit of the TT rules. Originally, advanced armor was rare and considered to be a "prototype technology."

Therefore, it actually makes more sense to include it as part of the module system. This would set it apart from standard equipment and make it even harder to come by — which is exactly why things like seismic sensors, UAVs, coolant, etc. is part of the module system instead of the standard equipment in mechlab.

If advanced armor is to be implemented in MWO, the module system is the best place for it.

It is normal equipment - that's part of the point.
It consumes significant amounts of weight and space, just like everything else.

For that matter, some of the advanced armors weren't even so exclusive as the Module proposal makes them out to be.

First case-in-point: Reactive Armor

• R&D by DracCom starts in 3058 (TacOps, pg. 282)
  
• Production starts in the DracCom in 3063 (TacOps, pg. 282)

However, Innovative Design Concepts - a BattleMech development firm based on Solaris - introduced the LNG-2 Longshot, clad in Reactive Armor, in 3058 (later in the same year in which the DracCom started its R&D program, and 5 years before Reactive Armor officially enters production).

Second case-in-point: Hardened Armor

• R&D by FedCom starts in 3045 (TacOps, pg. 280)
  
• Production starts in the FedCom in 3047 (TacOps, pg. 280)

Hardened Armor, in its fully developed form as a separate type of armor, would already exist in-universe for several (in-universe) years at MWO's point in time, which would render obsolete the idea of the corresponding Module proposal (which doesn't represented Hardened Armor properly) representing some sort of pre-production interim solution.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Looking at Tactical Operations, these are the special types of armor available for Mechs and their requirements for using them.

Ferro-Lamellor: 14 points per ton and requires 12 critical spaces.
Hardened: 8 points per ton and 0 critical spaces
Laser-Reflective (IS): 16 points per ton and 10 critical spaces
Laser-Reflective (Clan): 16 points per ton and 5 critical spaces
Modular: 10 points per ton and 1 critical space
Reactive (IS): 16 points per ton and 14 critical spaces
Reactive (Clan): 16 points per ton and 7 critical spaces

Here's the rules for each armor type from Tactical Operations and Total Warfare.

Hardened Armor

Quote

Each point of Hardened Armor can sustain two points of damage. To reflect this, when marking damage off on a location protected by this armor type, draw a single slash through the armor bubble for the first point of damage sustained, and a second slash, making an “X” (or block the armor bubble out entirely) after the second point (at which point any remaining damage affects the internal structure normally, unless any special rules apply).

Penetrating critical hit checks (including “floating” critical hits) against a unit protected by Hardened Armor (such as those caused by rolling a 2 on the Hit Location Table, or during a successful Swarm Attack) suffer a –2 modifier to all rolls on the Determining Critical Hits Table (including Vehicle Critical Hits Tables). If the attack did not strike a location or facing protected by Hardened Armor, this critical hit modifier does not apply.

In addition, Hardened Armor negates the bonus armor-penetrating effects of Armor-Piercing Ammo (see p. 140, TW), Tandem-Charge Missiles (see p. 372) and Tasers (see p. 345). If these weapons are fired against a location protected by Hardened Armor, their damage is not reduced as above, and so they deliver their damage as if they were standard weapons hitting standard armor (Armor-Piercing Ammo hits as a standard AC round; Tandem-Charge; Missiles hit as standard SRMs; ’Mech Tasers inflict only 1 point of armor damage).

Units using Hardened Armor suffer noticeable mobility impairment that affects piloting and speed. To reflect this, ’Mech units that carry Hardened Armor suffer a +1 Piloting Skill target modifier and –1 Running MP. Combat Vehicles using Hardened Armor suffer a +1 Driving Skill modifier, but no loss in MP.

Laser Reflective

Quote

Laser Reflective Armor reduces all damage and heat effects from flamers, lasers, PPCs, plasma weapons and energy-based infantry weapons by half (rounded down, to a minimum of 1 point of damage and/or heat; infantry lasers halve their total damage before resolving hit locations normally).

Because the armor is more brittle than usual, however, damage from falls, physical attacks, and moving through building walls is doubled against locations protected by it. In addition, damage from area effect weapons (such as artillery) is doubled against locations protected by Laser Reflective Armor. For aerospace units, damage to a location protected by Laser Reflective Armor is also doubled for a failed Control Roll that would normally cause damage to that location involving any of the following events: entering a space/atmosphere interface hex (see p. 78, TW); launching and recovering (see p. 86, TW); landing and take-off (see pp. 87-88, TW) and ramming attacks (see p. 241, TW). In addition, damage from area effect weapons (such as artillery) is doubled against locations protected by Laser Reflective Armor.

Also, armor-piercing weapons such as Armor-Piercing Ammo (see p. 140, TW), Tandem-Charge Missiles (see p. 372) and Tasers (see p. 345) receive a +2 modifier on their armor-piercing eff ects rolls (Critical Hit checks for AP Ammo and Tandem-Charge Missiles; Taser Effects for ’Mech and Battle Armor Tasers) for any successful attack against a location protected by Laser Reflective Armor. Against all other weapon types, Laser Reflective Armor behaves normally. Excess damage beyond the armor’s capacity affects internal structure or structural integrity per the normal rules for the location’s structure type.

Modular Armor

Quote

When a location containing a slot of Modular Armor is hit, the damage is subtracted from the Modular Armor capacity first. If a slot of Modular Armor is hit (for example, through a penetrating or floating critical hit, or a Weapon critical on vehicles that randomly rolls up a Modular Armor slot), all remaining points for that slot (if any) are destroyed. Modular Armor slots that are already depleted are considered to be destroyed items. Because Modular Armor is bulky and its installation exceeds the unit’s normal design parameters, units using Modular Armor suffer a +1 modifier to all Piloting Skill target numbers and subtract 1 Walk or Cruise MP, recalculating the unit’s Running/Flank MP normally. Fighters apply the +1 modifier to all Control Roll target numbers, as well as subtracting 1 Safe Thrust MP (recalculating Maximum Thrust) when operating in an atmospheric hex.

Jump-capable units also subtract 1 Jumping MP. These penalties do not accumulate if the unit carries more than one slot of Modular Armor, but they all apply as long as even 1 point of Modular Armor remains on the unit. Once all points of Modular Armor a unit carries have been destroyed, the mobility and Piloting effects they produce are eliminated. Modular Armor cannot be “ejected” in gameplay.

Reactive Armor

Quote

Reactive Armor reduces all damage from explosive-type weapons such as missiles, mortars and artillery weapons by half (rounded down, to a minimum of 1 point per hit). Physical attacks, as well as attacks using energy weapons, autocannons, Gauss weapons or other weapons deliver their normal damage and effects to the target, but any weapons that rely on an armor-piercing effect, such as Armor-Piercing Ammo (see p.140, TW), Tandem-Charge Missiles (see p. 372) or Tasers (see p. 345) lose any special armor-penetrating abilities if they strike a location protected by Reactive Armor. Excess damage beyond the armor’s capacity affects internal structure or structural integrity per the normal rules for the location’sstructure type.

In addition to the above rules, any penetrating or “floating” critical hits to a Reactive Armor critical slot not only roll the critical hit again as usual, but also require a second 2D6 roll. (Against a non-’Mech unit, this occurs any time the unit suffers a critical hit of any kind to a location still protected by Reactive Armor.) If this roll yields a 2, all remaining armor in the location (including front and back in the event of torso hits) is destroyed and the internal
structure in that location suffers an additional 1 point of damage (with additional critical hit effects checked as normal).

Stealth Armor

Quote

A ’Mech with the stealth armor system must also mount an ECM suite. When the stealth armor system is not engaged, the ECM suite functions normally. When the stealth armor system is engaged, the ECM continues to function normally, but the ’Mech suffers effects as if in the radius of an enemy ECM suite see p. 134). If the ECM suite is destroyed, the stealth armor system cannot function.

A player may turn the stealth armor system on or off during the End Phase of any turn. A ’Mech may also start the game with the system engaged; this must be indicated on the unit’s record sheet. While the system is engaged, attacks against a unit equipped with stealth armor receive additional to-hit modifi ers of +1 at medium range and +2 at long range. In addition, a ’Mech with its stealth armor system engaged cannot be attacked as a secondary target (see Multiple Targets Modifier, p. 109). Finally, while engaged, the stealth armor system generates 10 heat points per turn.

[Symber]

Not exactly the same concept, but I posted the same idea about adding armor types last week only it didn't get any response. Here's the link in case anyone wants to swipe anything.

http://mwomercs.com/...nd-fotm-builds/

[Animus Corpus]

bump - i like this idea. It is in the general spirit of the MWO world, but less so for the TT game. Still, i would get it the first chance i got should it be implimented. PLEASE make it so

[Bhael Fire]

Strum Wealh, on 27 July 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

It is normal equipment - that's part of the point.
It consumes significant amounts of weight and space, just like everything else.

Perhaps. I just think if the TT rules used the module system, advanced armor would have been part of it, alongside the UAV, seismic sensors, and other prototype/rare/unusual equipment. Seems to go hand in hand with the way MWO is designed.

Really shocked to see such a negative response for the proposal. I mean, I'm not opposed to advanced armor being part of the upgrade system in mech lab, I just think it fits better conceptually in the module system. Oh well.

[Appogee]

Nah, I think armour types it should be equipment you purchase, with tradeoffs for crits etc.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

I like it. But it should be a regular purchase. Just because modules can be traded out. And the armor should be mech specific.

[xCico]

You have mastered atlas ddc put all that on 2/2 and suddenly you are immortal
No good, armor we already have is fine!