257 replies to this topic

[Clit Beastwood]

Hellcat420, on 26 July 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

read the whole statement not just cherry pick what you want. you also need to remember that just becasue its in a novel doesnt mean that is actually how they worked. they take some artistic license in order to make the books seem cool so they can sell a bunch of them to make money. it wouldnt make for a very good book if the mechs were falling over a lot trying to do this kind of stuff, would it.

I simply countered your initial statement that such actions did not appear in lore. The actual fact is that the mechs in lore DID do the things I mentioned. (Again, the fact I'm stating is that in lore, such actions occurred). These facts, as documented in the novels, did appear in the novels within which you stated the aforementioned actions did not appear. Don't get defensive, you were wrong, it happens. As none of it (the TT game, the books, etc.) is real, there really isn't a lot of "real world" to fall back on, so the lore is what we've got. If BT/MW have nothing else, they've got documentation. So much documentation. (And lots of awesome miniatures). Documentation within which my initially stated reason for the post is frequently referred to and relied upon as a survival tactic. Again, in lore but not in canon/tt.

And yes - if they fixed jumpjets this would be moot. I was simply trying out an idea that would allow smaller mechs to live longer, i.e. mediums. The mediums really need some sort of mobility perk. I doubt we'll see vectored jumpjets any time soon. That spider variant with the little wing thingies... the venom I think? That looked like stupid amounts of fun to play.

Edited by Fierostetz, 26 July 2013 - 03:12 PM.

[Clit Beastwood]

I'd rather a mod just lock/delete the thread, as this is pointless if nobody's going to bother reading the entire thing.

[Clit Beastwood]

This whole thread is turning lame. Just watch this video then go read another thread

[Modo44]

No. A better tutorial would be cool, but other than that, learn to pilot.

[Clit Beastwood]

Modo44, on 26 July 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

No. A better tutorial would be cool, but other than that, learn to pilot.

So, as I stated a few times before. I drive lights almost exclusively, this wouldn't really affect me because I can get out of my own way. It would make it easier for heavier mechs (specifically, mediums that are too slow to dodge, but too lightly armored to survive an alpha) to avoid snipers and allow them to get closer to the enemy. I certainly don't have any issues piloting a mech, but thanks for your concern for my welfare.

And *some* tutorial would be cool - youtube videos don't count!

[Bhael Fire]

I voted no. Not because I "hate" the idea, but because it's unnecessary.

[Clit Beastwood]

Thank you for a clear, concise reply!

[Drunk Canuck]

The game lacks the jump jet physics that allow you to move from size to side, because Mech's have never been able to move side to side while walking or running.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I still do not understand why some feel the need to bash others when we are simply discussing ideas, if someone disagrees then just disagree. The mods seem quite generous in allowing such behavior.

Fierostetz, on 26 July 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

They've got legs, no reason the mechs shouldn't be able to dodge sideways. I know it's not part of the movement mechanic at this time, but I think it'd do a great job of further mitigating snipers. True, sniper to sniper combat would still be a pair of mechs 2-steppin' 1200m apart, but other than that, lighter mechs could better dodge high alphas. Fat mech = slow sidestep, faster mech = faster sidestep. Thoughts?

Also, it really wouldn't hurt to let humanoid mechs either crouch or go down on one knee...

As to your suggestion, it would not bother me to have increased agility in the manner of being able to side step in MWO, since we already have players hopping about with their JJs to avoid return fire.

So being able to step side could help to get behind cover faster, since it can take time to rotate the legs to move in the right direction to get to cover against good competition. But crouching and kneeling, no that would be too much for MWO and I don't see how those two could improve combat right now, IMHO.

And there are gonna be technical challenges to overcome, if the devs try to implement something like this. For example, with controls there will either be a change to current keys used, or an extra separate set for that ability. Then also doing the animations necessary for that movement to look good and fluid for the various mechs, and getting a proper speed for the action, my guess would be to make the speed calculated as it is when we walk backwards, so we can only run in one direction, forward.

[Corvus Antaka]

Lightfoot, on 26 July 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

In MechWarrior you get strafing by rotating the torso 90 degrees and walking forward or back. It does the same thing at a much faster speed, essentially.

+1000

[Mad Porthos]

I voted other on this one. My rationale for neither agreeing nor disagreeing... I think that such movement is an aspect of agility. Not all mechs should be agile, futher not all those that are agile should be agile in the same way. An example of this is the Pretty Baby as compared to say an Jenner...or, no say Cicada. Now of course speed and turn radius are different, based on engine size, chassis weight and perhaps the "quirk" system that gives extra turn speed, less or greater turn radius etc. But do you really feel that an Atlas, 100 tons of mass, should just be able to do a little side step jig to get out of the way of a bullet, laser or missile as though it were a nimble human being?

Whether its lumbering at full tilt, or dead still, an Atlas is just not supposed to be responsive that way. With a mech like Pretty Baby, vaunted for its agility, you have got to realize thats in comparison to normal Awesomes and perhaps all other assault class chassis, not when compared to a jenner. Like the Atlas, perhaps even more so when it is running full tilt, the Pretty Baby should not be dodging suddenly and effortlessly to one side in a 'jink' maneuver. Once again, mass is the issue. The agility of such a mech really should remain in things such as the better turn radius for a given engine rating, acceleration, deceleration and the like. These could be envisioned sort of like traction, torque and braking power in a car/racing game - the closest analogue I can think of.

Now lighter mechs, they are a bit of a different story, dontcha think? People already QQ endlessly about lights being to hard to hit... first it was lag, then hit detection, then after HSR it was bad or ghost hitboxes... and now people saying its lag and bad hitboxes together and HSR never really worked. If you NOW give lights even more agility with side strafes/steps, it will be one more WTF QQ these people will blame when they dont kill a light but think they should have.

If a side step was implemented, why not consider it as an aspect of pilot/avatar skill in a given mech, rather than an ever present feature? As some point out, battlemechs are not physically restricted from side stepping... thier joints and hips and pivot points work on a skeleton, with bundles of artificial muscle, allowing movement in the needed axis and rotation. Further, neuro helmets allow mechwarriors to balance and control thier mech in ways similar to thier own body. Though hardly easy or natural, the skilled mechwarrior probably should be able to make mechs legs step a bit more to one side or another as they are stepping forward or back, rather than simply the old reliable pumping of a walk or run. People cross step in real life, like strafing and a good number of the mechs drawn in movement actually seem to be moving in such a manner. Again though, in a game you need systems. As things stand light mechs, medium mechs... thier agility is profiled in the same terms that an assault mech like pretty baby is... turn speed, acceleration, deceleration, torso twist and such. How can agility be reflected in a jenner with someting that allows it to jink or side step/strafe, at least occasionally, while not allowing it to an assault or heavy?

Probably pilot skills.

Don't know if I am way off base or not, but I seem to recall it being said a number of times inofficial posts that things like pin point elite skill, that dont actually function will be replaced. That is an opportunity to insert chassis/weight class specific skills that could give other effects, perhaps the GREATER AGILITY that they have stated may be given to light and medium mechs to make them more appealing. Perhaps very chassis specific skills that might act as a quirk, such as allowing a mech without jump jets still to "hop"due to piloting techniques,or side step, dodge, couch... what have you. Centurions could buy a shield use skill even, giving a slight damage reduction to arms... an advantage they do pay for, but that reflects the table top and lore uses of the mech's vaunted shield arm.

Point is, t is complex what should make up agility and what mechs should be able to pull off the little maneuvers that the OP and others are touching upon, strafing and more.

Edited by Mad Porthos, 26 July 2013 - 07:46 PM.

[Animus Corpus]

Chief 117, on 26 July 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

But mechs with 4 legs can strafe without twisting their torsos.

THANK YOU - finally someone who sees the wisdom in four-legged mechs. They would also have better handling for high inclines and be better suited as sniping platforms due to their enhanced stability due to four legs.

I SALUTE YOU brother in arms !!!

Edited by Meat Waggon, 28 July 2013 - 04:49 AM.

[Adridos]

Meat Waggon, on 28 July 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

THANK YOU - finally someone who sees the wisdom in four-legged mechs. They would also have better handling for high inclines and be better suited as sniping platforms due to their enhanced stability due to four legs.

I SALUTE YOU brother in arms !!!

They also have a plethora of disadvantage associated with those useless perks. No torso twist, 12 less criticals due to additional legs and no arms (this means no ES/FF/DHS for thses guys, as they need aevery crit they can hamper to havy any weapons at all),...

[Lord of All]

Mech hip joints are not ball joints.

[SweetWarmIce]

I voted no because if Battlemechs could strafe, there would be no need for torso twisting. Which is the whole point of Quad mechs.

[Typhoon Storm 2142]

Lightfoot, on 26 July 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

In MechWarrior you get strafing by rotating the torso 90 degrees and walking forward or back. It does the same thing at a much faster speed, essentially.

Congratulations for not understanding the topic and for enthusiastically ignoring the OP's arguments. Thanks for letting everyone know how to turn a 'Mechs legs by 90 degrees, smart boy. Did you learn that all by yourself or did someone help you with that?

Of course a 'Mech should be able to strafe by making a sidestep. It could easily be implemented in the current movement mechanics. Although it would be slow, it's an effective way to evade enemy fire....as seen countless times in the BT novels.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Fierostetz, on 26 July 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

That's pretty basic maneuvering - there's lateral movement afforded by the actuators in the legs... in lore they're able to crouch, sidestep, etc. - I'm hoping it would add a new dynamic to combat, and remove some of the danger of massive alphas, i.e. sidestep the ppc's, then go to work while the target's ppc's are cycling. I don't know if the current skeleton of the mechs' 3d models is capable though, it might take reworking which would = a no go.

This is the truth. Mechs in lore can most definately sidestep, crouch and all that. Additionally mechs with JJs could launch themselves flatfooted in any direction they chose up to their max jump distance unlike our only forward motion and only if we have running speed up before we jump.

We definately have some massive restrictions on movement in this game. Whether this is a good thing or not, I have no clue.

Lord of All, on 28 July 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

Mech hip joints are not ball joints.

Not sure if this is true to be honest. Maybe someone can find those internal schematics of the Clan mechs that used to come in poster formate and find out.

[Booran]

No it would just feel strange to strafe. Crouch I can manage, but no side-stepping.

[Adridos]

Viktor Drake, on 29 July 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

Maybe someone can find those internal schematics of the Clan mechs that used to come in poster formate and find out.

Viktor Drake, on 29 July 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

Maybe someone can find those internal schematics of the Clan mechs that used to come in poster formate and find out.

[Typhoon Storm 2142]

Booran, on 29 July 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

No it would just feel strange to strafe. Crouch I can manage, but no side-stepping.

You don't need to use it. But having it would be awesome. If it feels so strange, then just keep running forward. But there are people out there who can handle the additional flexibility without getting confused.

Edited by Typhoon Storm 2142, 29 July 2013 - 02:04 AM.