248 replies to this topic

[Vulix]

Orzorn, on 28 July 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

No they don't, they have less. They don't have a burn time.

From the stand-point that you need to be accurate, they do

[DegeneratePervert]

One solution is to shrink (yes, shrink) the medium mechs. The Centurion, for example, is way too huge. If it were smaller, then it would be harder to hit, and then they'd live longer to get close.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

DegeneratePervert, on 28 July 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

One solution is to shrink (yes, shrink) the medium mechs. The Centurion, for example, is way too huge. If it were smaller, then it would be harder to hit, and then they'd live longer to get close.

DegeneratePervert, on 28 July 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

One solution is to shrink (yes, shrink) the medium mechs. The Centurion, for example, is way too huge. If it were smaller, then it would be harder to hit, and then they'd live longer to get close.

The solution is...

Light PPC:
Damage: 10
Heat: 8 (2/7.0 Scale)
Range: 540
4 Tons
2 Critical Slots
*Can only be mounted on a Medium or Light chassis.

[Blackadder]

Vulix, on 28 July 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

From the stand-point that you need to be accurate, they do

not really, PPC you fire and forget, all you really need to do is aim at relatively slow moving targets which is easy. Aiming multiple weapons at the target is not any more difficult due to ability to group fire, the only real factor you have to account for is projectile speed. even then unless targets are at extreme range, the spread is not all that large anyway.

To put all your damage from a laser at range on a target, or on a portion of a target is extremely hard, while spreading it over a target and keeping damage on the target is difficult at range, and decreases with reduction in ranges.

[Vulix]

Blackadder, on 28 July 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

not really, PPC you fire and forget, all you really need to do is aim at relatively slow moving targets which is easy. Aiming multiple weapons at the target is not any more difficult due to ability to group fire, the only real factor you have to account for is projectile speed. even then unless targets are at extreme range, the spread is not all that large anyway.

To put all your damage from a laser at range on a target, or on a portion of a target is extremely hard, while spreading it over a target and keeping damage on the target is difficult at range, and decreases with reduction in ranges.

Suppose you can just look at it the other way too - if you miss with a PPC, you do 0 damage. If you don't get a full laser on someone, you still apply some damage. Probably doesn't matter what I say though because the PPC-hate train is going to just keep on going

Edited by Vulix, 28 July 2013 - 02:23 PM.

[Lefteye Falconeer]

PPCs and Gauss should have their cooldown raised to at least 5 seconds. It makes me laugh maniacally to think that PPC and ERPPC cooldown was 3 seconds until a month ago. The textbook definition of "what were they thinking?". And sadly, whatever they were thinking, they aren't really done thinking it just yet.

[Blackadder]

Vulix, on 28 July 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

Suppose you can just look at it the other way too - if you miss with a PPC, you do 0 damage. If you don't get a full laser on someone, you still apply some damage. Probably doesn't matter what I say though because the PPC-hate train is going to just keep on going

no you right, its a matter of doing some damage to a mech, that is usually spread, vs an all or nothing strike to a single point on a mech. however, the advantages given to the PPC , and the fact that it wasnt changed after the HSR really make it a go to weapon.

Typically in FPS games, if you have weapons that have high damage they usually have some negative aspects that offset it. in MWO that is not the case. there is no real disadvantage to taking Gauss RIfles, and PPCs , or AC20s over other weapons currently beyond tonnage limitations. the rate of fire is not slow enough to matter vs other weapons, range is superior, heat is a non issue, and you get the bonus of being able to place all your damage at one point on a mech vs spread damage.

Its not really even a PPC issue, beyond PPC being the flavor of the month due to hit detection problems, and its superior stats at the moment. it still comes down to PGI's inability to balance out various weapons systems to make a variety of styles viable at the same time, which is problematic considering its been in open beta for over a year.

[Lightfoot]

You folks who think 2xPPCs and 1 Gauss need to be nerfed, how long have you been playing MechWarrior? Because in previous MechWarrior games this is a standard config for a heavy and a 90 tonner could carry 2xLight Gauss and 3xERPPCs, or 5 ER Large (70 tonner), or 2xLBX20 and 5xSSRM4 (70 tonner). Mechs carry arrays of weapons that the pilot is challenged to operate, usually with group-fire and the occasional alpha-strike. (2xPPCs and 1 Gauss is a group-fire.)

So to me, MWO is working with just a very few weapons on Mechs right now and it's the Mechs that are too weak to take even that much fire-power. Probably the 2x recharge is to blame, but I assume that is staying as a feature, so the only way to save MWO at this point is make the Mechs tougher.

Clan tech features lighter, smaller, more powerful weapons and you will find that by nerfing Inner Sphere loadouts so heavily they will be unable to respond to Clan tech which will not be nerf-a-ble. If mechs are struggling against 2xPPCs and a Gauss, they will be crushed absolutely by any Clan config. Clan Supernova Prime comes with 6x Clan ER Large for example. That's the standard that MWO has to prepare for because this is MechWarrior and it uses Battletech Mechs. It's not Hawken or Heavy Gear where the robots get one gun and one missile pod.

Convergence inaccuracy is in MWO from the arm and torso reticle allignment time. This has the greatest effect on large group-fired weapons. Even though you may master it, the possibility of missalligned reticles remains. It has a much greater effect when you use a Joystick, but I don't think anyone would like it if they added that extra allignment time to Mouse control.

Make the mechs tougher before the Clans arrive or suffer the nerd-rage that will follow.

[Huntsman]

Right now it seems pretty well balanced with the alternative of 2 gauss which runs absolutely cool and have pinpoint accuracy for 30 damage, whereas the 2 PPC 1 gauss do 5 more damage and can use JJ, but suffer from projectile velocity and heat concerns. Admittedly heat isn't much of a factor with only 2 PPCs at this point, and it shouldn't be a crippling concern at any point, but hopefully the heat fix will at least make it a relevant factor.

[Lefteye Falconeer]

Lightfoot, on 29 July 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

You folks who think 2xPPCs and 1 Gauss need to be nerfed, how long have you been playing MechWarrior? Because in previous MechWarrior games this is a standard config for a heavy

Been playing BattleTech and MechWarrior games since forever and what it was like in previous games is irrelevant. This game has to stand on its legs, and these legs started with very little money and not enough developers so they had to make some design decisions and stick with it. Beyond that, there is no point in respecting tabletop rules if they are not fun or translate poorly in an action environment. Previous MechWarrior games were amazing for their time but they are not what we have now, nor we are gonna get them back. Working with the frame that is MWO, you gotta make the game fair, balanced, and fun. And that means that lots need to be changed, alas. Maybe if they had a bigger budget and more employees they could have tried to change the course of development, but clearly this is not the case so deal with some founding mechanics that are not gonna change until they get (if) a load of money.

Stop using previous games as a reference for anything. The "timing", level of precision, and the "higher resolution" (not just video) of this game mess up with the original tabletop concepts whereas an alpha strike pretty much NEVER landed on the same section of a battlemech.

Therefore, since in MWO every shot (alpha included) is a very precise "aimed shot", and they can't change that, then the concept of "alpha strike" has to be reworked, because it's easier and more viable to do so. Deal with it.

This also mean that many popular canon builds will have their functionalities changed, along with their efficiency. Nerfed, yeah. Otherwise this game doesn't work (or it works until everyone realizes there's one build which is globally better than all the others).

Remember why 8 vs 8 is dead at the moment.

[Shae Starfyre]

I cannot help but think that the solution to a lot of these types of issues is to field a more balanced load out.

Snipers are not as much of an issue when everyone is not trying to cater to kill ratios and start playing to their win ratios.

When you, and everyone starts thinking this way, then the game dynamics become more fun; roles tend to be filled, and the game expands to include multiple scenarios.

Just my observation from the last week concentrating on winning and not killing the other Mech (this is, of course, another discussion on what the difference between winning and killing the other Mech, and how they can be different).

[Roadbuster]

Aphoticus, on 29 July 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

I cannot help but think that the solution to a lot of these types of issues is to field a more balanced load out.

Snipers are not as much of an issue when everyone is not trying to cater to kill ratios and start playing to their win ratios.

When you, and everyone starts thinking this way, then the game dynamics become more fun; roles tend to be filled, and the game expands to include multiple scenarios.

Just my observation from the last week concentrating on winning and not killing the other Mech (this is, of course, another discussion on what the difference between winning and killing the other Mech, and how they can be different).

Oh, I agree with you 100%. But the problem is that many people will never put the needs of the team over their ego k/d ratio.
It's rare to see a light mech scout and tell the team what they see, forcing assault mechs to fill the scout role because the light mechs need to brawl.
Or the many times you see a lance of heavy and assault mechs chase a light mech around while the rest of the team gets rolled by the opponent.
How about teams which cower behind a ridge and play peek-a-boo instead of flanking the opponent, or players who run away from LRM boats instead of trying to get under minimum range.

What I can do against PPC-Gauss? Nothing.
All I can do is not use such a loadout and I'm having way more fun that way.

[JohnnyWayne]

If everyone would be playing for the win, you would play Lightwarrior online and the game mode would be called turbocapping and racecap. Or you can have it the other way: one team camps at the base (assault) like in 8v8.

Scouting... Well i write in the chat what I see but thats not enoug. We urgently need ingame voip.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 29 July 2013 - 06:24 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

I disagree with the cap warrior online; least what I have experienced the past week. When you have a stable 4 man on each team; least that is what it feels like for me right now, the dynamics are extreme.

Sure, capping is prevalent, but then, each team knows this and plans to be capped, so the team takes precautions.

I also believe that there are more competitive players in the higher brackets that are more concerned with winning then K/D Ratios.

The reason I believe this is the way the game has been going.... key notes:

1.) I see more disabling, hit and run tactics.
2.) I see more scouting.
3.) I see more logical approaches to defending the base but maintain an offensive (less people go back to defend, fading back to base while maintaining aggression, etc.).
4.) positioning
5.) dog fighting tactics, games of cat and mouse.

It is like they are playing the game as it was meant to be played like table-top.

It may be just me, but I see differences in the way the game is played lately.

Edited by Aphoticus, 29 July 2013 - 06:28 AM.

[Syllogy]

Shoot back. Duh.

[Roadbuster]

Aphoticus, on 29 July 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

1.) I see more disabling, hit and run tactics.
2.) I see more scouting.
3.) I see more logical approaches to defending the base but maintain an offensive (less people go back to defend, fading back to base while maintaining aggression, etc.).
4.) positioning
5.) dog fighting tactics, games of cat and mouse.

It is like they are playing the game as it was meant to be played like table-top.

It may be just me, but I see differences in the way the game is played lately.

Yes and no.
There are matches where people really know what they do, but then, the next match makes you wonder if you are watching a scripted event when your whole team rushes forward like there's some free beer on the other side of the map.
Nobody scouts and if someone does, he gets ignored and people are wandering over the map like a flock of sheep, just waiting to get slaughtered.

The sad thing is, if you are in such a team, what can you do? You don't have many choices.
Die an "honorable" death or watch them die in seconds and commit seppuku?

[Lostdragon]

The only effective thing you as a player can do to bring about change is to run the most OP builds yourself and dominate with them.

[Skyfaller]

Kushko, on 27 July 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

I guess you could also "counter" it by using a sniper fit of your own, but tbh that's not really a counter (scissors do not counter scissors after all ) and at least in my opinion severely lacking any kind of fun factor.

I play an LRM boat and a scout spider (lrm spotter). When in my LRM boat I give those sniper kiddies missile barrages fired without lock on them. Its just fantastic to watch those people cry in the chat about 'hack lrms' hitting them with no missile warning. Best of all is since they always sit in one place and take a step forward, fire and take a step back it is very easy to dumbfire LRMs on their location.

I sure wish LRMs could fire on a map coordinate though.

[Lugh]

DegeneratePervert, on 28 July 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

One solution is to shrink (yes, shrink) the medium mechs. The Centurion, for example, is way too huge. If it were smaller, then it would be harder to hit, and then they'd live longer to get close.

Centurions have oddly skinny torsos and I've seen shots pass through the space between their arm and the side torso on a regular basis.

They also benefit from having absurdly easy to hit Arms of Giant stature. Couple with the ST, if you are trying to core them out at anything other than head on they are absurdly durable.

Stalkers have a similar makeup.

[Tarl Cabot]

Lefteye, on 29 July 2013 - 02:46 AM, said:

PPCs and Gauss should have their cooldown raised to at least 5 seconds. It makes me laugh maniacally to think that PPC and ERPPC cooldown was 3 seconds until a month ago. The textbook definition of "what were they thinking?". And sadly, whatever they were thinking, they aren't really done thinking it just yet.

This but a step further. PPC/GR/etc, by their recycle times, are semi-effective in medium/close range encounters. Medium lasers/etc are at 3s recycle times. Other MW/MPBT games can be used as a starting point. Their recycle times ranged from 6s to 10s recycle times for the long range weapons. For MWO, the highest recycle timer is for the LRM20 at 4.75s.

MWO = 0.5 (AC2), 3.25 (LL/ERL), 4 (PPCs/GR/AC20), 3.25-4.75 (LRMs).

MW4 = 1.0 (different AC2), , 6 (AC20/LRMs), 8 (GR/ERLL/PPCs)

MPBT = 1.5 (AC2), 7.5 (LL/AC20/LRM), 10.0 (PPC)

As for what can the player do? Use cover while approaching, attempting to get into optimal range of your weapons. But we are back to that again, optimal. Their weapons are optimal due to their recycle times and the ability to put the hurt of not just one weapon but all on a tic into one location. And do that 2x in under 10s.

Now, mind you, I fit in the category that this thread is about. Rarely do I take 2erPPC but mostly 1erPPC/GR with S/SRM/med lasers as backup, but I do recognize those weapons are as effective in a brawling situation as not. Are LRM (Innersphere version)? Thankfully they are not under 180m but what about when Clan LRMs show up? That will be a different thread.

What can we as players do? In game, do not do what is convenient. Successful, long range fire/suppression is dependent on positioning and expectations. The most convenient spot to fight, the need to make contact asap and stay with it. This is more so in a PUG setting than not cause no one is guiding/commanding, nor is there a real incentive to give direction/order cause people are not invested in outcome of the drop as it only impacts K/D and W/L. And the easy route for many is long range fire and depending on only yourself, using the brawlers as meatshields. Sorta a vicious cycle.