248 replies to this topic

[Grey Death Storm]

Kushko, on 27 July 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

Well first off, you can post constructive feedback on the forums, but i think that has mostly been covered (on a side note, nonconstructive whining and moaning has been covered as well ). And besides fixing the actual gameplay mechanics is mostly out of our hands after we let the devs know that there is an issue.

But what we as players can do is start battling the "oh so loved and overly fitted/abused spec" by building our mechs to specifically counter them.

Tired of the 2xPPC+1xGauss snipefest? Find the style boring and do not wish to participate in the FOT*several*M? Build an "in your face" brawler and use the terrain and team coordination to get close to them safely and unleash your devastating short range fury. Or build a fast mech that will dodge all but the most skilled and precise ppc/gauss fire.

I guess you could also "counter" it by using a sniper fit of your own, but tbh that's not really a counter (scissors do not counter scissors after all ) and at least in my opinion severely lacking any kind of fun factor.

Don't get me wrong, i have nothing against people that enjoy long range sniping and i don't even think its really a significant game balance problem. The problem is really about more and more people getting in to the mentality that its the only truly viable way to get an edge over your opponent. And as such, those of us that do not enjoy the style or enjoy 4-6 out of 8 on both teams playing the 2xPPC&1xGAUSS peekaboo game, should show them and others that that there are alternatives and devastating counters to predictable builds.

Thank you for taking the time and reading this, and i hope you will take an extra minute or two and also respond with your opinions.

See you on the battlefield!

Stop crying its pathetic, in a real life battle do you expect the devs to hold your hand and nerf this and that every time you come across something or what some one built that you cant handle. Stop whinning to devs your just destroying the game and the experience. last month you all whined about PPC boats now its 2 x PPC with Guass rifle stop it whats next get with the program and learn tactics.

[Gulinborsti]

I posted it in a different thread and I will repeat it here:

2xERPPC + 1xGAUSS builds are no problem, it's "only" 35 dmg of not even guaranteed pinpoint damage.
4-6xPPC Stalkers with 60 dmg to a single zone were a threat but PGI has perfectly taken care of this with the heat penalties.

What to do about 2xPPC + 1x GAUSS builds?

Learn to play them yourself and / or try to learn to counter them. It's not rocket science at all.

[xCico]

So after patch 30th everyday gettin worse with Gauss+2ERPPC, yesterday snipers ripping my armor from 800+ meters, without noticing, I notice when I guess accidently Gauss smoke cross over my head and I notice that my CT armor is gone and im orange, they had 4 sniper group, today even worse, every match my/enemy team have 3+ snipers in team, where is this going? And today in last match I was so pissed off on snipers when i saw cored Highlander sniper I rush in to kill him, and guess what happened? My alpha strike of 49 points didnt register on him, they ripped my left torso I only had Gaussso i tried again and shot blank in his CT and that guy who was dark red killed me with his 35 points dmg? So what can i do? NOTHING, my brawler Victor is piece of **** now in this meta…

[MyszTrap]

Gulinborsti, on 01 August 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

I posted it in a different thread and I will repeat it here:

2xERPPC + 1xGAUSS builds are no problem, it's "only" 35 dmg of not even guaranteed pinpoint damage.
4-6xPPC Stalkers with 60 dmg to a single zone were a threat but PGI has perfectly taken care of this with the heat penalties.

What to do about 2xPPC + 1x GAUSS builds?

Learn to play them yourself and / or try to learn to counter them. It's not rocket science at all.

In assault mech online this would not be so much of an issue, still to much damage though imo. But since this is MWO online, and there is more out there than assaults, and with the mentioning of possible weight limits being added, this needs to be fixed. 35 points of damage on the same location on most mediums is going to drop them in 3 seconds flat at ANY range... so good luck as a medium when that highlander comes over that hill at you....

I should know, my last 5 games have been in a blackjack, each one i died in 3 seconds to some cheese cutter in a highlander with only 2 erppcs and a guass. Its the first time I have ever logged out of this game in frustration and it takes ALOT to get me frustrated.. so i can only imaginewhat it does to other players trying to play a medium..

[3rdworld]

MyszTrap, on 02 August 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

In assault mech online this would not be so much of an issue, still to much damage though imo. But since this is MWO online, and there is more out there than assaults, and with the mentioning of possible weight limits being added, this needs to be fixed. 35 points of damage on the same location on most mediums is going to drop them in 3 seconds flat at ANY range... so good luck as a medium when that highlander comes over that hill at you....

I should know, my last 5 games have been in a blackjack, each one i died in 3 seconds to some cheese cutter in a highlander with only 2 erppcs and a guass. Its the first time I have ever logged out of this game in frustration and it takes ALOT to get me frustrated.. so i can only imaginewhat it does to other players trying to play a medium..

I play mediums, and I don't see an issue.

Try not getting shot, it normally helps.

[Co Ward]

ITT - idiots who dont understand how to use cover and blame the enemy for shooting an easy target.

Seriously, all of you need to stop bitching and learn to play. You cannot charge the enemy in this game, you cant stand still and expect not to die. You play against people who can aim and you get upset that they can aim, that is not the games fault and has nothing to do with the weapons they use.

If ppc and gauss get nerfed you will just start bitching about something else because you start dieing to that.

If you cannot handle people who can aim you should just stop playing fps and go play a rts where the computer does the aiming for you.

[MyszTrap]

Udachi Kerensky, on 02 August 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

ITT - idiots who dont understand how to use cover and blame the enemy for shooting an easy target.

Seriously, all of you need to stop bitching and learn to play. You cannot charge the enemy in this game, you cant stand still and expect not to die. You play against people who can aim and you get upset that they can aim, that is not the games fault and has nothing to do with the weapons they use.

If ppc and gauss get nerfed you will just start bitching about something else because you start dieing to that.

If you cannot handle people who can aim you should just stop playing fps and go play a rts where the computer does the aiming for you.

I am not complaining about poeple who can aim (anyones dead dog can aim at any of the walking barns in this game), nor are alot of poeple who complain about ppc+gauss. You say use cover? You know what? I use cover, you say learn to play? 9 times out of 10 it is my co worker and myself who top the charts every game regardless of mech and it almost always comes down to us to carry our team at the end because our teammates can never seem to put out more than 75 points of damage a match.

My issue is this, i am playing behind cover, we are doing great, almost no damage mid way through the match, and then 100 meters to the side of me a victor comes over a hill and BAM 35 points of damage on my blackjacks center torso.. before i can even come close to finding cover from this BAM another 35 points and i am down. All in 3-5 seconds. There is almost no skill involved in this kill so long as he has even half a clue as to what he is doing when he fires his second shot.

Or did i miss the memo that we were just playing COD in mechs where whoever pulls off the first shot wins....

Now lets move on to release, new players join, new player plays game, new player dies like multiple times, new player will likely go back to his call of duty and MWO online dies in 6 months.

Just because you do not have an issue with something does not mean it is not an issue. 35 points of damage on a single shot is far to much, a lucky shot will drop a light and basically put a medium to the point where he is a stray shot from death.
Hell, i wouldn't even have an issue with this if it was only at range, but the fact that its pin point accurate at even minimal range? Or the fact that every match there is at least 4 people running the same load out on the same mechs....Yup, that sure is what i would call balanced.

[3rdworld]

MyszTrap, on 02 August 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

I am not complaining about poeple who can aim (anyones dead dog can aim at any of the walking barns in this game), nor are alot of poeple who complain about ppc+gauss. You say use cover? You know what? I use cover, you say learn to play? 9 times out of 10 it is my co worker and myself who top the charts every game regardless of mech and it almost always comes down to us to carry our team at the end because our teammates can never seem to put out more than 75 points of damage a match.

My issue is this, i am playing behind cover, we are doing great, almost no damage mid way through the match, and then 100 meters to the side of me a victor comes over a hill and BAM 35 points of damage on my blackjacks center torso.. before i can even come close to finding cover from this BAM another 35 points and i am down. All in 3-5 seconds. There is almost no skill involved in this kill so long as he has even half a clue as to what he is doing when he fires his second shot.

Or did i miss the memo that we were just playing COD in mechs where whoever pulls off the first shot wins....

Now lets move on to release, new players join, new player plays game, new player dies like multiple times, new player will likely go back to his call of duty and MWO online dies in 6 months.

Just because you do not have an issue with something does not mean it is not an issue. 35 points of damage on a single shot is far to much, a lucky shot will drop a light and basically put a medium to the point where he is a stray shot from death.
Hell, i wouldn't even have an issue with this if it was only at range, but the fact that its pin point accurate at even minimal range? Or the fact that every match there is at least 4 people running the same load out on the same mechs....Yup, that sure is what i would call balanced.

torso twist.

This game does completely require CoD style twitch abilities. You apparently don't know how to twist, so you don't see the resemblance.

No one ever said this game was balanced. Just that 2PPC&Gauss isn't an issue.

35 damage will not drop a light, not leave a medium with a red CT or anything like that.

lying does not help your argument.

Edited by 3rdworld, 02 August 2013 - 10:58 AM.

[WVAnonymous]

I use 2PPC&Gauss with 3SRM4+A, and I still generally get most of my (not as many as I'd like) kills inside of 270 meters...

[ZonbiBadger]

Amsro, on 27 July 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

If 2 ER/PPC's on a mech is game breaking then yes ER/PPC's DO need a heat increase.

Infact ER/PPC's were dropped in heat to curb hit detection woes earlier in the year, now its time to revert that change. Why?

Because ER/PPC's.... HIT now.

P.S. The gauss rifle is already a giant paper mache grenade. Gauss is far from OP and requires skill to use it and keep it safe + ammo. ER/PPC's on the other hand need more heat.

Play better. That is the solution.

[Erata]

The only thing you can do is ask that brawling weapons get buffed. Sniper weaponry is useful well outside of brawling range, and continues to be inside of brawling range.

Even if you allowed the brawler to begin the fight within their optimal, the sniper would put up a great fight. No, it's not entirely because of ~pinpoint alpha~, it's mostly because their sustainable DPS numbers are very similar, but in the end yes pinpoint alpha wins.

edit: The only skill-based thing you can do as a player to override the meta is to group up with people in the VOIP of your choice and focus fire down dudes.
Apart from that, there's nothing you can do to make your guns shoot any harder lol.

Edited by Erata, 02 August 2013 - 02:13 PM.

[Rippthrough]

Duck.

'cause if you don't, 3xPPC and Gauss are still going strong.

Edited by Rippthrough, 02 August 2013 - 03:57 PM.

[Volomon]

Simple, get out of the way.

LOL, but in this hypothetical situation where are these weapons located and on what class?

[Erata]

Volomon, on 02 August 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Simple, get out of the way.

LOL, but in this hypothetical situation where are these weapons located and on what class?

The "Hypothetical Situation" is the last 6+ months of gameplay.

[Tragos]

One useful change for SRMs would be to reduce the SRM6 spread. ONLY SRM6. SRM4 (Artemis) are perfectly viable and hit what you aim for at 270meters. SRM6 (Artemis) still spread too far. If those additional missiles simply miss, there is no use for them.

Besides - 2x PPC+Gauss is fine. 35 Points shouldn't be a problem for anyone. Lights and meds: Get in cover. Heavy+: Twist (and cover). Problem solved.

[Baba Yogi]

3rdworld, on 02 August 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

torso twist.

This game does completely require CoD style twitch abilities. You apparently don't know how to twist, so you don't see the resemblance.

No one ever said this game was balanced. Just that 2PPC&Gauss isn't an issue.

35 damage will not drop a light, not leave a medium with a red CT or anything like that.

lying does not help your argument.

torso twist means you cannot attack him and give him full power over his next move. High alpha builds are great with jjets as well, he'll hit you then roam the skies while you cant use your torso weps and likely miss your intended target with the rest. He may choose to attack somewhere else and hide just after it (giving him a free shot) or wait for you to turn to him to hit the same place. In that case you are most likely dead with a med. this **** happens when you just roam the map to see where the enemies are. (Someone has to do it) No mech should die to single enemy within few seconds (tell me that never happend)

People whine most about fast no-consequence concentrated damage that most mechs have as against any team that has enough mechs with those builds will hold the ground better. You cannot lead charge as good as you should, ive seen assaults drop from full hp in 1-2 seconds(no exaggration) in concentrated fire. Speed is the only defense and even that is only because hit registration has gone to toilet again(same as 3l era now).

Edited by Lordhammer, 04 August 2013 - 06:40 AM.

[FearTheAmish]

I see continually in the thread a mention of skill as a factor...

"well you can counter with X but not if they have skill.."

STOP!

if two opponents have equal skill they should have equal chance, and the more skilled should win. At a higher level though there are several counters for PPC + Gauss sniper teams. LRM teams being one on most maps because they can force them to keep their heads down while the bralwers engage them. Also 2-3 lights engaging them to either keep them occupied or straight kill them while brawlers get close to engage. The thing is usually a good sniper team is an organized group using voip comms and working together, so high skill. If you are attempting to counter them with anything less than voip and skill you are going to lose because they have the skill edge.

EDIT: Also JJ snipers usually have a weakness that most of you don't realize... They run hot in close range brawls as well as usually front loading armor (back sides are weak).

Edited by FearTheAmish, 04 August 2013 - 07:41 AM.

[Coralld]

Given the current game mechanics, the best thing for PGI to do to balance out the 2x PPC+Gauss builds are to first increase the PPC heat back to TT levels of 10/15. Second, make it so Gauss gets a heat penalty. (Why the Gauss got a pass on this makes no sense to me what so ever). Thirdly, make it so PPC, ER PPC, and Gauss are linked for heat penalty.

I am not saying this is the best idea but it is the most simplest one PGI can do given what we currently have for game mechanics. And sense the way the heat penalty works by taking the highest heat penalty contributor, that means the Gauss will be used for the heat penalty.

So lets do some rough math...
2x PPCs (With new TT level heat) =20 points of heat
1x Gauss (With out heat penalty) = 1 point of heat
Plus new Gauss heat penalty of say 25 heat with weapons stacking now that PPC, ER PPC, and Gauss are linked would = 25 heat
Total heat generated by 2 PPC + Gauss alpha would = 46 points of heat.

This will force people to chain fire.

Oh, also, the heat penalty for PPCs should be increased from 7 to 10. Also make it so the Awesome has a quirk so that it can fire 3 PPC with out fear of heat penalty.
Some may wonder why the Awesome should be exempt from the heat penalty, well, I have 2 very good reasons. First, its weapons are slung low which make hill humping impossible. Second, when faced from the front or rear, the mech is as large as Russia. You just can't miss when shooting at it.

Edited by Coralld, 04 August 2013 - 09:05 AM.

[YueFei]

FearTheAmish, on 04 August 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

I see continually in the thread a mention of skill as a factor...

"well you can counter with X but not if they have skill.."

STOP!

if two opponents have equal skill they should have equal chance, and the more skilled should win. At a higher level though there are several counters for PPC + Gauss sniper teams. LRM teams being one on most maps because they can force them to keep their heads down while the bralwers engage them. Also 2-3 lights engaging them to either keep them occupied or straight kill them while brawlers get close to engage. The thing is usually a good sniper team is an organized group using voip comms and working together, so high skill. If you are attempting to counter them with anything less than voip and skill you are going to lose because they have the skill edge.

EDIT: Also JJ snipers usually have a weakness that most of you don't realize... They run hot in close range brawls as well as usually front loading armor (back sides are weak).

LRMs don't counter snipers, it doesn't force them to keep their heads down. Snipers are the epitome of the rapid peek-shoot-duck gameplay, they are exposed for maybe 2 seconds, much longer than the time it takes to lock on and fire. These are guys used to competing against other very good, very quick snipers. Avoiding return fire from enemy snipers is harder than avoiding return fire from LRMs. And the problem with using spotters for LRMs is ECM. This means using TAG to even gain lock. Then even if your spotters manage to gain LOS, a lot of good players kind of know where the spotters are going to be on these maps, and can break LOS. Finally, TAG doesn't let you lock onto a powered-down mech, so jump snipers who can't break LOS on the spotter can simply jump up as the missiles are incoming and power-down in midair, making the missiles miss. If you want to target through ECM, the spotter must carry BAP and get dangerously close, as in less than 150 meters. At 150 meters, against the top snipers, you may as well commit suicide.


I feel that LRMs *should* be made to counter snipers, but at the moment they really don't.

[Erata]

You can take the competitive road as a player and adopt the sniper meta yourself, or adopt strategies that eat massive amounts of time like scouting/ambushing/camping, which are not feasible on maps like Alpine anyway due to no cover.