87 replies to this topic

[GMAK]

I just bought a cicada with two machine guns.

Your telling me that shooting for 15 second like mad on a target will only give 30 of damage?

This make the machine gun pretty useless in my book.

I'd like to know what others players think about that. Other players that know a lot about the balance of this game.

[soarra]

they are used for crit seeking once the armor is gone

[TowerDiver]

add two more MGs, a erppc and a XL and you got yourself a good mech. While MGs aren't very efficent at delivering high dmg, shooting at an Alta's face will draw his attention to you and let your allies pound his back.

Edited by Lighthorn, 28 July 2013 - 02:15 PM.

[GingerBang]

MG"s are OP. Watch somebody play with 1 Large Pulse Laser and 4 Machine Guns on a Cicada. It is ridiculous. Some of the funniest stuff i've ever seen.

[Warge]

Mak54291, on 28 July 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

This make the machine gun pretty useless in my book.

We still asking PGI to make dam = 2.

[GMAK]

Lighthorn, on 28 July 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

, shoot at an Alta's face will draw his attention to you and let your allies pound his back.

Yea I tough that my new mech could at least be good for some harras tactics.

GingerBang, on 28 July 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

MG"s are OP. Watch somebody play with 1 Large Pulse Laser and 4 Machine Guns on a Cicada. It is ridiculous. Some of the funniest stuff i've ever seen.

With this loadout the mech must be pretty weak. It's very dangerous to attack the big mech at close range.

I think the machine gun should do 2 of damage. But I'm new in this game balance debate.

Warge, on 28 July 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

We still asking PGI to make dam = 2.

It's what I think too... 2 of dmg should be much better.

[soarra]

The Machine Gun is the quintessential anti-infantry weapon, issuing a stream of bullets at a high rate of fire to cut down opposing soldiers, while still being effective at damaging BattleMechs. Vehicular-scale machine guns mounted onBattleMechs can lay low entire platoons in just a few passes thanks to their high rate of fire, though they are more commonly found on Combat Vehicles andProtoMechs.^[3] These weapons are much heavier than those typically carried by infantry, but can be used by them when placed on a static mount, where they are called Support Machine Guns.^[4] Battle Armor can also carry machine guns, typically upgraded versions of infantry-support weapons, which can rival their larger vehicular-scale cousins.^[5]

Beyond the "standard" models Clan Smoke Jaguar was the first to create Light Machine Guns and Heavy Machine Guns, which the other Clans and the Inner Sphere eventually fielded as well. The Federated Suns were also the first to mount multiple machine guns on the same linked platform creating the Machine Gun Array.^[3]

[codynyc]

the last thing we need is a MG bump in damage... 6mg jager anyone... The need to have the damage reduced if any thing.

[Warge]

codynyc, on 28 July 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

6mg jager anyone...

With 200m attack radius.
So 4*PPC and 6*SRM6 - is no problem? But 6*MG - is a BIG problem!

[Royalewithcheese]

codynyc, on 28 July 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

6mg jager anyone...

It would be somewhat nice if these were something other than hilarious.

[Koniving]

One, did you keep it focused on the target. MGs "hitscan" like lasers, they travel instantly you do not lead them, you ignore the particle effect.

Two, on paper that's 15 seconds of shooting for 30 damage. There's also the internal crit-slot damage that happens after removal of the armor, and the up to "3 damage" spike at less than 2% chance per bullet. So maybe out of 100 bullets 2 of them might do an instant 3 damage each for 6. (Redshift, link that MG patch for me please?)

I've had enemies Atlases complain about losing their AC/20 instantly after losing their armor (18 health for an AC/20 which can't be damaged by MGs until it's armor is removed). I have had 3 or 4 different people complain about how insanely overpowered the MGs are when they are in my hands.


From my update history.
"Koniving
Saddest score ever achieved What makes it sad? Best of my team with 4 MGs, 4 flamers. Nothing else.
May 01 2013 07:01 PM · Delete · Lock"

Back then MGs did 0.04 damage per bullet, and flamers did 0.4 0.17 damage per second. I was the first to die in that match.

I believe tomorrow I'm going to run exclusively in a 6 MG Jagermech, no other weapons, and record the results.

Edit: At no time, ever, did flamers ever do 0.4 damage. Fixed.

Edited by Koniving, 28 July 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[GMAK]

Koniving, on 28 July 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

One, did you keep it focused on the target. MGs "hitscan" like lasers, they travel instantly you do not lead them, you ignore the particle effect.

I can't quote the video...

I think it's more the laser that did the job on this video....

[NKAc Street]

Machine guns are a truly team based weapon and they have a specific use, you drop with a team with a couple of DD's and focus someone's weak armor, you will shred them like butter.

[Koniving]

Mak54291, on 28 July 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

I can't quote the video...

I think it's more the laser that did the job on this video....

True, but go back and look at the picture with the flamers and MG only damage, back when MGs did 0.4 damage per second (0.04 damage per bullet) and flamers (actually come to think about it I believe it was 0.17 damage per flamer) with 4 flamers and 4 MGs.

Edited by Koniving, 28 July 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[stjobe]

Koniving, on 28 July 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

Two, on paper that's 15 seconds of shooting for 30 damage. There's also the internal crit-slot damage that happens after removal of the armor, and the up to "3 damage" spike at less than 2% chance per bullet. So maybe out of 100 bullets 2 of them might do an instant 3 damage each for 6.

It is important to note that the increased damage is to internal components only, not to armour or internal structure. Only stuff like weapons, heat sinks, and ammo (and engines, but destroying them does nothing still).

Other than that, yeah, the MG is still a rather anaemic weapon. The only people that say it's good are the ones using six on them on a JM6, backed up with dual ERLL or ERPPCs, with their heavy armour at max. And that's really a flagrant mis-use of a heavy, if you ask me.

Anyone not able to mount six of those MGs (and there's no other chassis able to mount more than four, dev quotes notwithstanding) will find the weapon underwhelming to say the least.

It has a few drawbacks:
* very short range
* very high rate of fire, leading to
* you having to face your enemy at spitting distance to do any damage
* random spread meaning you can't hit what you aim at

If the spread is removed and the damage buffed a bit still, it may become a weapon useful when mounted in pairs or quads; as it is though, it's not worth mounting for anything but shiggles.

[Royalewithcheese]

I've been trying the terrible machine gun/flamer Jagermech and it's pretty fun. Sometimes it even works!

(I would not recommend the placement of machine guns or flamers on a robot that you actually want to win with.)

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 28 July 2013 - 03:21 PM.

[Koniving]

stjobe, on 28 July 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

It is important to note that the increased damage is to internal components only, not to armour or internal structure. Only stuff like weapons, heat sinks, and ammo (and engines, but destroying them does nothing still).

Normally I would agree with you (trust me I've been using MGs for quite some time), however the wording in the latest thing on MGs says in addition to the crit slot damage, there will be actual damage spikes of 0.6, 1.2, and 3 damage (each with a listed percentage chance).

Found it!
Smurfy has it directly from the files. They define Crit Chance and Additional Damage. Smurfy used to say "This Weapon has a higher Crit Chance to do Damage to internal components." "1.25 damage, 2.50 damage, and 3.75 damage." So Smurfy lists higher numbers.

I'm having trouble finding the link where the new MGs are specifically explained for the 1.0 damage per second system (someone help me here), but the wording was that it would also have spikes in regular damage.

Royalewithcheese, on 28 July 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

I've been trying the terrible machine gun/flamer Jagermech and it's pretty fun. Sometimes it even works!

(I would not recommend the placement of machine guns or flamers on a robot that you actually want to win with.)

Tip: 4 flamers, 2 groups of 2, chainfire them. This keeps you from ever building up heat. You'll thank me later.

[OneEyed Jack]

Koniving, on 28 July 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

I've had enemies Atlases complain about losing their AC/20 instantly after losing their armor (18 health for an AC/20 which can't be damaged by MGs until it's armor is removed). I have had 3 or 4 different people complain about how insanely overpowered the MGs are when they are in my hands.

Only because those people are to stupid to realize it's other weapons doing all the damage. Being hit by literally any other weapon in the game, except Flamers, would have more effect.

Koniving, on 28 July 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

From my update history.
"Koniving
Saddest score ever achieved What makes it sad? Best of my team with 4 MGs, 4 flamers. Nothing else.
May 01 2013 07:01 PM · Delete · Lock"

Back then MGs did 0.04 damage per bullet, and flamers did 0.4 0.17 damage per second. I was the first to die in that match.

I call B.S.. To do that damage would require you to hold on target for nearly 3.5 minutes at a range of 90m or less (the range hadn't been bumped, yet) while your team apparently wasn't doing much of anything to distract your targets. Even allowing for sometimes hitting multiple mechs with the Flamers or the possibility that crit damage is being added to the total, I'm not buying it. Especially since there wouldn't have been all that much chance at crit damage with the poor amount of damage your team did (as in not many holes in the enemy armor).

[Team Leader]

codynyc, on 28 July 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

the last thing we need is a MG bump in damage... 6mg jager anyone... The need to have the damage reduced if any thing.

This... Is a joke, right?

[stjobe]

Koniving, on 28 July 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Normally I would agree with you (trust me I've been using MGs for quite some time), however the wording in the latest thing on MGs says in addition to the crit slot damage, there will be actual damage spikes of 0.6, 1.2, and 3 damage (each with a listed percentage chance).

Found it!
Smurfy has it directly from the files. They define Crit Chance and Additional Damage. Smurfy used to say "This Weapon has a higher Crit Chance to do Damage to internal components." "1.25 damage, 2.50 damage, and 3.75 damage." So Smurfy lists higher numbers.

I'm having trouble finding the link where the new MGs are specifically explained for the 1.0 damage per second system (someone help me here), but the wording was that it would also have spikes in regular damage.

Sorry Koniving, but that's just the crit damage, it's been adjusted at the same time the per-projectile damage has been adjusted (it was at 12.5 times for all three types of crits when per-projectile damage was 0.04).

Single crit @ 1.25 damage, 25% + 11% = 36% chance.
Double crit @ 2.5 damage 14% + 6% = 20% chance
Triple crit @ 3 damage, 3% + 2% = 5% chance

Total chance to crit: 36% + 20% + 5% = 61% (they've actually lowered the bonus crit chances).

Unless you can find me a dev post explicitly stating that MGs do damage spikes to armour, I'm going to have to say you're wrong (sadly).

Edited by stjobe, 28 July 2013 - 03:40 PM.