66 replies to this topic

[Vulpesveritas]

Odins Fist, on 11 June 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

"Going with only what someone "knows" works causes the lack of moving forward, as reluctance to change leads to reluctance for improvement."
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Now hold the phone right there, there is absolutely no reluctance in movng "FORWARD", But anything that is current that does not either perform better, or offer any kind of reliability or longevity, or is not proven by a good margin to be a contender (even when you have worked with the product in question), deserves a bit of scutiny, and "experience" trumps speculation any day of week, month. or year regardless of a few extra features on the almost same exact PCB (84 to 119 AsRock board). My statement of "budget quality" is just that, my customers while wanting an Asus Crosshair V 990FX performance, usually give me a budget that would fit a Biostar Micro ATX board, or AsRock mobo. That is the same kind of "advice" that I was trying to give the OP on his build questions, and I would "never" try to give advice to someone based on personal bias "UNLESS" I knew for a fact what works, and has a proven track record (was current or newer tech), and in this case, I have exactly that for what the OP was asking for in the first place. Not to sound mean, but ASRock boards are not considered the best for the money in either the circles I run in, our the industry I work with.. Please don't take that as any kind of insult at all.
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I am not saying you would do the contrary, "BUT" do you know anyone that is running the Mobo you recommeded with almost the "exact" same specifications that that "I" had recommeded, and what the OP was looking for in his first post..?? I do, and I feel being almost dismissed kind of hurtful, don't worry I won't feel personally attacked over it, but everyone has feelings, and I might need a shoulder to cry on... LOL Just Kidding.. "smiles"

I say that because nothing can be proven until it is tried. Until a change is made to see if something is better or worse, you won't know whether it is.
Do you have any evidence to say that that Gigabyte board would last longer than that particular AsRock one? Or have any evidence that the Gigabyte board would give any greater value for the OP?

Simply I feel that you consider AsRock nothing but a budget brand, and can't compete in quality or value with gigabyte or Asus at this price point, when that particular Asrock board uses higher quality publicly listed materials, has in general through reviews an easier to use UEFI, has legacy support, and has a slightly better sound card, and is virtually the same price.

This is where my primary disagreement lies.

[Odins Fist]

#1. To put it in simple terms, the OP said he is getting a sound card for recording/musician purposes, which puts the AsRock onboard audio as a non issue since it lacks the required interfaces. No serious musician/recording uses onboard audio (3.5 connections) for recording, it doesn't happen. Period, and he said he wasn't planning on using it.
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Quote from the OP... "The soundcard is there, because this computer is not only for gaming, it is also the new base for my studio as i have a home studo that i use to produce demos etc for people in my local music community" (sorry had to put it in after edit)
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# 2. UEFI versus standard BIOS is also a NON issue, standard BIOS lacks nothing other than eye candy in functionality.
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# 3 part 1 ...Known working Gigabyte 990FX board used for the "EXACT" same applications in first hand witnessed operation as such for months that the OP asked for versus unknown speculation on the AsRock mobo. I don't see the debate here.
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# 3. part 2 ...I do consider AsRock Mobos to be a "budget" mobo manufacturer trying to break into the enthusiast market, because most people buying an AsRock Mobo aren't willing tto throw the money down on another manufacturers hardware, they want the performance, but not the price, and I can understand that, and I have built AsRock, and Jetway boards for people on a budget, but why spend $140.00 (the same price $5 more on the AsRock) on an unknown throw of the dice when you can get better if not just as good from a known working reliable example..???
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# 4. I'll ask one last time... are you running an AsRock motherboard..?? I know someone running the Gigabyte board for the "EXACT" applications with 2-ATI 6850 video cards in Crossfire, and CPU overclocked for months, I don't understand where a disagreement would come into play.??
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# 5. Do I have any evidence that the Gigabyte Mobo in question would last any longer..?? "YES" I do, it's running right now, and an unkown AsRock board that no-one here has any experience with, unless you are using it, ..is not...
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I think that about covers it.

Edited by Odins Fist, 11 June 2012 - 10:24 PM.

[Vulpesveritas]

I personally am not running an AsRock motherboard (I'm running on my craptop after all) However I have people I have built for who have been running that AsRock board for nearly as long now, as well as others who are running AsRock motherboards I have recommended to them who have had no issues whatsoever that I keep in contact with.
I do keep up with my clients, friends, and a good number of people I make recommendations to. I have yet to hear a complaint on an AsRock motherboard with any of those whom I know.

As far as the sound card... I did miss that unfortunately. That may be one of the main issues here. I see that post now.

[Aze Mi Vithe]

That isn't true. I just found them both on newegg and Gigabyte was $5 less and comes with a $10 MIR. That's $15 he can put towards another Item.




I think you are mistaken.....I have a Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 that is awesome....I use mine for home digital recording and gaming, no problems, just fine. I have even overdlocked my CPU 1200Mhz over stock, way past anything thought possible, for a Black Edition Quad Core. I do use an older PCI sound card for recording. Gigabyte is rock solid. Any serious musician would use an external sound device, such as a perifial card for recording. Onboard sound lacks the required I/O (inout/output) interfacing needed for us serious musicians, who need professional digital home recording.


Still think they have it? Look at the website for Gigabyte. You'll see all the specs.....lol

　

Computer specs

OS - Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit
Case - Raidmax Smilodon
Mobo - Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD3
CPU - AMD Phenom II 960T (4.212Ghz)
RAM - Corsair Dominator GT 4G (1872Mhz)
Main Drive - AData S510 SATA3 SSD (120Gb)
Storage Drive - Seagate Barracuda (1Tb)
Optical Drive - HP DVD1270 DL/Ls
Sound - Creative Labs Audigy2 ZS Platinum
Video - Sapphire Radeon HD 6850 1Gb 256bit (Crossfired)
PSU - BFG 800 Watt Quad PCIe Power
Mouse - Logitech LX8 Wireless
HID - Saitek ST290
Monitor - Acer P215H 21.5" Widescreen LCD

[Skrapheap]

Total price 1200, and this is including a solid case than will take another build, unless things change drastically.

Case: Corsair 600T - http://www.newegg.co...N82E16811139007
MOBO: ASrock Extreme3 - http://www.newegg.co...N82E16813157281
GPU: MSI R7850 Twin Frozr - http://www.newegg.co...N82E16814127663
PSU: Corsair TX750M - http://www.newegg.co...N82E16817139030
CPU: AMD FX-8120 - http://www.newegg.co...N82E16819103961
RAM: Gskill Ripjaws 1333 10666 7-7-7-21 - http://www.newegg.co...N82E16820231402
HDD: Western Digital Caviar Black - http://www.newegg.co...N82E16822136533
Optical Drive: Samsung SH-222 - http://www.newegg.co...N82E16827151255
OS: Windows 7 Professional OEM - http://www.newegg.co...N82E16832116992
CPU Heatsink: Cooler Master Hyper 212 Evo - http://www.newegg.co...N82E16835103099

For around $100 - 150 U.S. more you can add a SSD as a boot drive, or a fatter GPU such as a 7870. But as was said before when building PCs sky is the limit, and if you want more power you are going to have to pay for it. That said I personally believe there is a point where computing power becomes a matter of mere bragging rights (somewhere around the 3k mark).

Edited by Wulffemein, 11 June 2012 - 10:55 PM.

[Catamount]

Odins Fist, on 11 June 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

# 5. Do I have any evidence that the Gigabyte Mobo in question would last any longer..?? "YES" I do, it's running right now, and an unkown AsRock board that no-one here has any experience with, unless you are using it, ..is not...
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I think that about covers it.

Not quite

This isn't even remotely evidence, of any kind

Even if you had an Asrock and Gigabyte board and comparative experiences, it would only be irrelevant anecdotal evidence, but since you don't even have anecdotal evidence to offer, there is no reason, whatsoever, to think that a Gigabyte board would last any longer.

You have anecdotal evidence regarding one of these two brands, and then no evidence, of any kind, regarding the other, which means that we can infer absolutely nothing from you in regards to these two boards, not that anecdotal evidence on both would be terribly better than nothing anyways.


What we do have are many Asrock boards with statistically significant samples of experiences in the form of hundreds of reviews for each (thousands in total), which all say that Asrock boards are very good, to the point that, based on relative reviews, they indicated that said boards perform and last every bit as well as those of any other brand.

Do you have contrary evidence?


You've been a generally sensible poster here, but this is just frightening logic in this particular instance. Your statement is tantamount to me saying that Gateway monitors must be better than Dell monitors, because I have a Gateway monitor running here, but no Dell monitors in the house, and you likely don't either, therefore Gateway is better.




I think we both understand why that's hardly valid thinking.

Edited by Catamount, 12 June 2012 - 06:38 AM.

[Aze Mi Vithe]

Wow, I think you missed the point. You say that ASRock is better.......And the OP is asking for help. I have Gigabyte (Dual BIOS) and I can say its a great board. He is asking what others think and you gave him your opinion. Others have given thiers, so why be so hostile? You say its better? Do you back it up, as I do mine? Its for gaming and music production, that is what I do.......So where is your proof that the onboard sound and quality is any better than that of another product? I have THX on my Audigy2 ZS Platinum and its old.......lol and Dolby Home Theater onboard.......I to have customers......I do not stray from certain brands, due to reliability issues. All manurfacturers have some boards that die or are DOA. That happens with all electronics. I am currently using Gigabyte and stand by it......You say you're not using a ASRock, but stand by it. So why stand by, or bash, a board you're not using? The OP is asking for OPINIONS.......its his decision......Let it be his.

[Steelo]

Guys guys , enough is enough, i have made my purchases thanks to the involvment of everyone in this forum, it is all much appreciated. As for the mobo, i still went with the sapphire mobo based on top 10 reviews from techradar it being the only amd motherboard that made it into that slot.

I had to juggle a few items around because some things were not availible from the canadian new egg. All is sorted i have a beautifle computer on the way ready for me to assemble here is what the final project looks like

CPU: Amd 8120
Mobo: Sapphire Pure Black fx990
GPU: PowerColor PCS+ AX7870 2GBD5-2DHPP Radeon HD 7870 ( went way over budjet on this but after reaserching all the options i figured it was best)
Ram: G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB (the cheaper amd ram was out of stock in canada)
Cpu cooling: Coolermaster Hyper 212 EVO RR (other cooler didnt exist in canada)
PSU: XFX Core Edition PRO550W
HDD: Western Digital RE4 WD5003ABYX
Case: LOGISYS Computer CS1202BK
SC : m-audio Audiophile 2496 Audio Card
Windows Home Edition

And i have an old readwrite cd/dvd drive sitting around i can use.

Thanks for all the help


p.s. Can't wait to build it, feel like a kid on christmas waiting on santa( ie the mailman) to deliver my new toys.

Edited by Steelo, 12 June 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[Odins Fist]

Really..??

Catamount, on 12 June 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

Not quite

This isn't even remotely evidence, of any kind

Even if you had an Asrock and Gigabyte board and comparative experiences, it would only be irrelevant anecdotal evidence, but since you don't even have anecdotal evidence to offer, there is no reason, whatsoever, to think that a Gigabyte board would last any longer.

You have anecdotal evidence regarding one of these two brands, and then no evidence, of any kind, regarding the other, which means that we can infer absolutely nothing from you in regards to these two boards, not that anecdotal evidence on both would be terribly better than nothing anyways.


What we do have are many Asrock boards with statistically significant samples of experiences in the form of hundreds of reviews for each (thousands in total), which all say that Asrock boards are very good, to the point that, based on relative reviews, they indicated that said boards perform and last every bit as well as those of any other brand.

Do you have contrary evidence?


You've been a generally sensible poster here, but this is just frightening logic in this particular instance. Your statement is tantamount to me saying that Gateway monitors must be better than Dell monitors, because I have a Gateway monitor running here, but no Dell monitors in the house, and you likely don't either, therefore Gateway is better.




I think we both understand why that's hardly valid thinking.

"This isn't even remotely evidence, of any kind".... Incorrect, and that seems to be a thinly veild insult.
Both of the MOBOS in this deabte are new/current Tech (990FX AM3+)
As the AsRock board in question, are you running the "EXACT" mobo that was recommended to the OP..???
I can see that the gentleman above me is using the "EXACT" same Gigabyte Mobo doing the same applications that the OP said he was going to be using, so at that point we have a "KNOWN GOOD" with first hand experience in the descirbed applications versus an "UNKOWN", so I fail to see where there would be an argument about that issue. Experience is "NOT" irrelevant, but in most cases "SPECULATION" is irrelevant, so I do not understand your approach to that.
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As I said, and which "IS" the case, AsRock has been a budget board manufacturer "BREAKING INTO" the enthusiast Mobo market, and that is a fact, where as Gigabyte has a longer standing presence in the enthuisiast market. Aslo it seems to me that anyone on a budget of $84.00 for a mobo obviously will not be buying a Asus Crosshair V, or Gigabyte UD5 or UD7 990FX mobo as their "budget" would not allow it to happen on a planet called Earth for $84.00. As far as AsRock being a "budget quality" mobo I guess someone got a little insulted thinking that "budget" board is what AsRock is, but it is competeing for the Mid to Low end market with at least two of it's (skinny ATX) mobos, or am incorrect about that as well.?? I'm not.
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Bringing up the issue of "ANECDOTAL" evidence, really, so you don't think selling AsRock Mobos, and most of all the other major and lower end brands as well, has any bearing on the Mobo manufacturer in question, or the experience with the company..??
You "ALSO" have anecdotal evidence regarding the AsRock mobo, and then no first hand "EXPERIENCE" of any kind regarding either Mobo, am I correct. or are you running the AsRock Mobo that was recommended..?? Which means that we can infer absolutely nothing from you in regards to these two boards or Vulpesveritas as well not that anecdotal evidence on either would be better than nothing, but nothing is not the case here, and the fact that the Gigabyte mobo is being used for "EXACTLY" the same type of applications the OP says he needs the system for, so again I do not understand why a Flame war is happening concerning a recommendation, and distracting the thread away from it's original purpose.

There also are many Gigabyte boards with statistically significant (as high if not higher) samples of experiences in the from of hundreds/thousands of reviews for each, which all say that Gigabyte boards are very good, to the point that, based on relative reviews, they indicated that said boards perform and last every bit as well if not better as those of other brands as well. So I don't see evidence to the contrary as i'm not looking at a "REVIEW", i'm standing here looking at the Gigabyte based system, watching it do "EXACTLY" what the OP said he was going to use the system for and saying to myself this "perhaps I should recommend this Mobo versus the AsROCK" which I know for a "FACT" hasn't been in the upper tier for "ENTHUSIAST" motherboards as long as Gigabyte has been. <-- Semi quote
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Would it be fair to say that the argument can go both ways, I think I have made that point as well..??
I can't see getting bashed for recommending a "KNOWN" good working example with first hand experience at exactly the budget the OP listed in the begining, over a Mobo from a different company that no-one in this thread has anything "real world" experience with other than reading reviews would be fair. It seems unfair to me, how would go about recommending hardware to someone, just by reveiws..?? That seems a little irresponsible to me if the person recommending hardware had actual experience that was positive with something else.
I refuse to jump onto a bandwagon over a handful of reviews versus experience, I couldn't do that in good conscience.
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I will not be changing my recommendation, or be in agreement that I reached my recommendation on anything otther than "EXPERIENCE", and common sense, I think we both know that "Vailid Thinking" was the approach used, and also I the consider the comment about "valid thinking" another attempt at insult, but that dog does not hunt.
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On a side note, I never bashed on AsRock, or called them a horrible manufacturer, I simply stated the obvious.
I see no further need to argue over this as it is distracting the thread away from it's intended purpose.

Edited by Odins Fist, 12 June 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[Catamount]

Odin's Fist, your entire response boils down to little more than a red herring.

Yes, one firsthand experience is nothing more than an anecdotal case, and it's only an anecdotal case regarding one motherboard. If we want evidence on how two motherboards from respective manufacturers will perform relative to each other, then we'd need at least an anecdotal case with the other, not that that would be particularly good evidence.

As it stands, there's as much reason to believe a given Asrock motherboard will perform better than said Gigabyte board than worse. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence in this case; we simply don't know.



This is something you spend entire paragraphs literally dancing around.

"I used one of these motherboards and it worked, but not the other, therefore the one I used is better" is non-sequitur reasoning, and you can dance around that fact 'till the cows come home, to use a really bad southernism, but it's not going to chance anything.


We have very positive user reviews for bother motherboards, which amount to something far more than your one anecdotal case, which you have no evidence to suggest is representative of any kind of average experience, much more with your non-existent experience with any Asrock board.

So, in short, there is absolutely no reason to think a given Gigabyte board will perform or last any better than a given Asrock board, certainly not in any way that will be significant to the OP.


Of course, I'm not saying it's necessarily not the case either, merely that the burden of evidence is on you, as the claimant, to show that it is, and you have failed abjectly to that end.


It has nothing to do with being insulting to you; it was nothing to do with you. Your logic is simply invalid. When you have some actual evidence of note to back your assertion, then it will be worth consideration. Addressing your argument is not addressing you in any way, let alone insulting you. You and your argument are two entirely different things. When I do address you, and get into argumentum ad homenim territory, then you will have grounds to criticize my post as such. Until then, the claim is just a tangent, a red herring, to dance around the issue at hand.

I apologize if you've taken offense, but as I said, at no point did I address you in any way, not beyond a mild compliment for your generally sensible posting.

Edited by Catamount, 12 June 2012 - 08:01 PM.

[Aze Mi Vithe]

Again, it seems, no one will let this go.......As far as using "anecdotal" seems to be the only word known lately. Drop it. I have this board and will stand by it, as it also was bought on a budget, same as the OP. He made his decision, he is happy. You guys are reading reviews and testing on sights. Anybody that has built a fair amout of pc's, would know that you can buy several of the same product and see that not all of them are the same. Some come good and some come bad, but every once in a while, you find a diamond in the ruff. Also, we all have our own opinions on products we USE, or seen in use, not just recomend. So that said, just end it.

[Odins Fist]

My bad I guess I won't recommend a Gigabyte 990FX 8+2 phase Mobo over an AsRock 990FX 4+1 phase Mobo...
What was I thinking for possibly clocking a FX-8120 125 watt CPU up to what would be a decent clock on an FX-8150, but I guess the 4+1 Digi VRM on the AsRock will be fine.. I mean who needs more mosfets to share the load when you have Digi VRM to smooth it all out ..right.
Man, what was I thinking... LOL

[Steelo]

Aze Mi Vithe, on 12 June 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Again, it seems, no one will let this go.......As far as using "anecdotal" seems to be the only word known lately. Drop it. I have this board and will stand by it, as it also was bought on a budget, same as the OP. He made his decision, he is happy. You guys are reading reviews and testing on sights. Anybody that has built a fair amout of pc's, would know that you can buy several of the same product and see that not all of them are the same. Some come good and some come bad, but every once in a while, you find a diamond in the ruff. Also, we all have our own opinions on products we USE, or seen in use, not just recomend. So that said, just end it.

This guy is a smart man, learn from him

[Catamount]

Aze Mi Vithe, on 12 June 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Again, it seems, no one will let this go.......As far as using "anecdotal" seems to be the only word known lately. Drop it. I have this board and will stand by it, as it also was bought on a budget, same as the OP. He made his decision, he is happy. You guys are reading reviews and testing on sights. Anybody that has built a fair amout of pc's, would know that you can buy several of the same product and see that not all of them are the same. Some come good and some come bad, but every once in a while, you find a diamond in the ruff. Also, we all have our own opinions on products we USE, or seen in use, not just recomend. So that said, just end it.

It's an interesting sentiment from someone who just used an entire paragraph explaining why anecdotal evidence is useless (and thank you).

In any case, it isn't just about the OP. This is a public forum, and when someone gives advice using incorrect logic, it should be addressed, so that others don't use said advice/logic.

Odins Fist, on 12 June 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

My bad I guess I won't recommend a Gigabyte 990FX 8+2 phase Mobo over an AsRock 990FX 4+1 phase Mobo...
What was I thinking for possibly clocking a FX-8120 125 watt CPU up to what would be a decent clock on an FX-8150, but I guess the 4+1 Digi VRM on the AsRock will be fine.. I mean who needs more mosfets to share the load when you have Digi VRM to smooth it all out ..right.
Man, what was I thinking... LOL

Congratulations you've now graduated to doing nothing but using red herrings in your posts

This is what you do; you make sweeping statements, then when people respond, you claim their responses are "thinly veiled insults", then suddenly you slightly change the subject and narrow the focus of your post away from said sweeping statement. I could literally flowchart your behavior on this thread.

I'm not here to start a personal fight; you said something logically invalid amidst an otherwise sensible body of statements, I pointed it out, and you never addressed that. Let's leave it at that if you aren't going to address it.

Edited by Catamount, 13 June 2012 - 06:51 AM.

[Steelo]

NEW PARTS STARTED ARIVING TODAY YAY

[Catamount]

Anything you can assemble? More often than not, they like to send me parts in just the right order where I can't do anything with them, and have to sit there and just gleefully hold them until everything arrives...

[Steelo]

haha, yeahhh so far i've gotten the cpu, sound card, heatsink and ram.. notttt much to assemble haha, im hoping for more by the end of the week.

[Catamount]

Back when I was building my first PC, I was in that boat. I wanted to play so badly, I was constantly checking my tracking numbers, and finally when it was just down to the RAM, I begged my mom to drive to the Fedex store so I could pick it up there, rather than waiting for it the next day (our Fedex store allowed you to do that).

[Skrapheap]

Catamount, on 13 June 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

Back when I was building my first PC, I was in that boat. I wanted to play so badly, I was constantly checking my tracking numbers, and finally when it was just down to the RAM, I begged my mom to drive to the Fedex store so I could pick it up there, rather than waiting for it the next day (our Fedex store allowed you to do that).

This time I am cheating and paying the premium for next day. I hate getting the case and GPUs first, the mobo the next day, and the rest a week later....Ok I am not going to have to wait on the case at all this time, as I am reusing the ATCS 840 I already have.

Edited by Wulffemein, 13 June 2012 - 08:05 PM.

[Aze Mi Vithe]

I have to say it was a nice choice......Steelo

I have a question for the others.....since they don't want to drop the issue about the board.
I have looked up stats on both mine and the ASRock. They are pretty much the same, but I did notice something odd.
They have it posted to do Quad Crossfire/SLI when it only has 3 PCIe slot. Unless they are counting the x1 slot, which in many gaming communities is a no go, since it can't keep up with x16/8/4. why list it this way? Is it a miss print on Newegg or ASRock, or does it turely have this feature?