66 replies to this topic

[Team Leader]

PanchoTortilla, on 29 July 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Going from +1.4 heat cap to +0.0 heat cap is a nerf, yes ?

FupDup, on 29 July 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

And they would also go from +1.4 dissipation to +2.0 dissipation.

Exactly. Probably should have included that in the main post. Ill do that now.
Pancho I understand what you are saying but what do you propose the solution is? I think this would help at least a little. And keeps the mechs from "bursting into flame" as you say.

[ZonbiBadger]

Kunae, on 29 July 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

With PGI's demonstrated inability to do anything correctly, it is my opinion that we shouldn't suggest even more overly complicated, and unnecessary mechanics, for them to fugger up.

Kunae, on 29 July 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

With PGI's demonstrated inability to do anything correctly, it is my opinion that we shouldn't suggest even more overly complicated, and unnecessary mechanics, for them to fugger up.

So why are you still playin?

[Kunae]

ZonbiBadger, on 29 July 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

So why are you still playin?

Because I foolishly have hope that they'll be as accurate as a broken clock, someday.

[Lootee]

Team Leader, on 29 July 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

Exactly. Probably should have included that in the main post. Ill do that now.
Pancho I understand what you are saying but what do you propose the solution is? I think this would help at least a little. And keeps the mechs from "bursting into flame" as you say.

It all goes back to the TT heat dissipation rate but triple fire rates.

Slowing down fire rates or speeding up dissipation across the board might help but each way has its own set of problems. Faster dissipation would make matches go even faster with all the damage being flung around. Slowing rate of fire across the board has no real downside except the whining from meth head twitch babies who must be able to fire every gun every 4 seconds.

SHS were never meant to compete with DHS. They were supposed to be just good enough with oldtech weapons. DHS should not be required equipment unless you run ERLL, ERPPC, or an excessive number of smaller guns. But in MWO DHS is required for every mech (with the exception of gauss boats) due to the triple firing rate. I think that's where things go pear shaped.

Another place where MWO deviates from TT is that extra heat dissipation and capacity is rewarded. In TT if you used enough SHS to dissipate the heat from your weapons, that was all you had to worry about. In MWO because fire rates are so quick, any extra heat capacity and dissipation directly translates into more damage.

Even if you run something very low heat like a CN9-D with a gauss rifle and 2 medium lasers (7 heat per turn in TT, requiring 7 SHS to fire everything + 2 heat if you run). Something like that could easily run on just 10 SHS. Installing DHS on that build is pointless. But in MWO you are encouraged to slap on DHS, the 20 heat dissipation from all the DHS in the engine at first seems like overkill, but then when you look at it... That means you can fire the gauss rifle twice, the 2 medium lasers twice in the same time as you could only fire those once with the SHS, and because MWO fire rates allow it, why wouldn't you install the DHS if you had the cash??

With everyone installing DHS to jack up their heat cap and dissipation so they can moar dakka, you are forced to also install DHS just to keep up.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 29 July 2013 - 11:22 AM.

[zhajin]

a major part of the problem is 2.0 dhs in the engine. this alone makes dhs a no brainer in every instance, and allows for much higher heat builds. I am really not sure what logic PGI was using for this. I would be very curious to test the game with all engine HS being 1.0, and doubles being a full 2.0. This would potentially make singles viable on builds with plenty of tonnage, but make singles a boost for those with limited tonnage, but plenty of space.

Edited by zhajin, 29 July 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Engine heatsinks should have a flat value across heatsink types, IMO. Maybe 1.5?

[SirLANsalot]

Kunae, on 29 July 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

Because I foolishly have hope that they'll be as accurate as a broken clock, someday.

its always 5 o'clock somewhere right?

[Kunae]

SirLANsalot, on 29 July 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

its always 5 o'clock somewhere right?

Exactly.

[Kin3ticX]

PGI turned DHS into a grind mechanic.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I like the idea of testing out SHS with Dissipation at 1.0 and a Heat Capacity of 2.0
and DHS to have a Dissipation of 2.0 and a Heat Capacity of 1.0.

Lore-wise, it could be argued that the old SHS are reliable in drawing away heat from the Weapons fire and the Engine running, but are less efficient at pumping off that heat themselves compared to DHS, due the structure if its heat pump and radiator.

And DHS being also known as Freezers, can efficiently pump the heat drawn from Weapons fire faster than SHS, but can't handle as high a spike in heat load like the old SHS due to the composite materials used to make DHS.

Otherwise, I like the idea of keeping all heat sinks at 1.0 Heat Capacity and/or use a Cap for Max Heat Capacity for all mechs at a certain value, say 30 or a more appropriate value.



And if I remember correctly, Heat Dissipation is currently calculated over 10 seconds, so what if that value was changed to maybe 8 seconds?

[Rippthrough]

I would have all heatsinks give a fixed cap, of around 1 each. You can choose more SHS for cap, or less DHS for dissipation
That way light mechs don't get a massive free heat cap from the engine either.

[Kunae]

Rippthrough, on 29 July 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

I would have all heatsinks give a fixed cap, of around 1 each. You can choose more SHS for cap, or less DHS for dissipation
That way light mechs don't get a massive free heat cap from the engine either.

Yeah, because light mechs being OP is one of the major problems of MWO...

[Tombstoner]

Kin3ticX, on 29 July 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

PGI turned DHS into a grind mechanic.

PGI is doesn't want heat neutral mechs...."it trivializes heat as a game mechanic..... 'except that its accounted for in the mech design. Heat neutrality is paid for by tonnage placed into heat sinks. as it is we have true neutral mechs already.

Can SHS be made viable, of cource.

The addition of heat capacity is because the devs dont understand the difference between instantaneous heat and accumulated heat. the heat cap is for accumulated heat only and if all it takes is pausing for 4 seconds to get rid of all your heat then you must extend out the time period for heat dissipation such that it is a serous concern.

PGI's miss handling of the heat/damage values lead to a 250% increase in damage output countered by a 200% increase in armor. Then add in capacity to a dissipation time of 10 seconds and you can fire off 2 alphas and fall back to cool off.

To make SHS work weapon get rid of heat cap. set dissipation times to 30-60 seconds. scale back damage and heat proportional for a 7.5x - 15x fire rate that is equivalent of one TT turn but over 30-60 seconds double heat sinks are already balanced by the fact that they take up 3 crit spaces and not one. This limits the number you can carry. as per TT rules.... The same rules used in the mech lab.

Stop combining instantaneous heat with accumulated heat.... It's two completely different things.
Weapon damage is currently 50% higher then TT. its part of the reason we die so fast.

Edited by Tombstoner, 29 July 2013 - 12:29 PM.

[Sean von Steinike]

Situational, but more maps with waist deep water would add some value to them since you can put SHS in the legs.

[Joseph Mallan]

Team Leader, on 29 July 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Does anyone even.. Read... What I write..

Not enough it seems.

[Rippthrough]

Kunae, on 29 July 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

Yeah, because light mechs being OP is one of the major problems of MWO...

No, but it might force a rebalancing for those lights that run cool with ballistics, etc, and hence are massively underpowered atm.

[Joseph Mallan]

Royalewithcheese, on 29 July 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

Engine heatsinks should have a flat value across heatsink types, IMO. Maybe 1.5?

Maybe if the heat cycle was sped up like our cyclic rate single sinks would work as expected. But with an average cyclic rate 2 times the TT speed single sinks cannot keep up. An Awesome can fire a 3 then 2 cycle on TT for a full game and never over heat. Can MWO's Awesome do the same? These are supposed to be futuristic war machines not piles of crap.

[MaxStr]

DHS are just a 1.5 million credit money sink.

The only bonus standards have going for them atm is that you can put them in your legs and cool off faster in water. No clue what those numbers are but it sounds pretty limited and I doubt they come close to making up for twice as much cooling/cap in the engine heat sinks alone.

Edited by MaxKarnage, 29 July 2013 - 03:26 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

MaxKarnage, on 29 July 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

DHS are just a 1.5 million credit money sink.

The only bonus standards have going for them atm is that you can put them in your legs and cool off faster in water. No clue what those numbers are but it sounds pretty limited and I doubt they come close to making up for twice as much cooling/cap in the engine heat sinks alone.

Thats the only advantage they have on TT too!

[Purlana]

Umm you use SHS for the same reason you use the standard structure instead of Endo....

You can't afford it!

Edited by Purlana, 29 July 2013 - 03:46 PM.