138 replies to this topic

[OuttaAmmo NoWai]

AC2 builds are so rare at my ELO, I'm actually glad to see them. They're another flavor in a game with only a handful of viable builds, and they're not *invincible*, so what's the issue?

[Mystere]

WALD, on 29 July 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

I only noticed the blinding effect when it was fired in the manner that's being discussed, not by a single AC/2. I went into the training grounds with a quad AC/2 build the first time I encountered one and did the 1234 method and went "ah, so it can be done without a macro". So yes it's possible to do such a thing, but on the move? For me it would only be viable while stationary and every encounter I've seen they're on the move and not just going in a straight line.

I have no issue with the weapons functionality, I have a problem with it being used in a manner that clearly wasn't considered in the design of the game. If recoil was in this game you wouldn't see this being done in the first place, at least not in a sustained fire aspect. I don't see that many that use quad AC/2's but I do think that it needs a second look, maybe just decrease the explosion size the rounds do on impact. It is the smallest AC and for just 2 damage it looks like it's doing way more (I know it's a HEAP round but it's the smallest one, it shouldn't look like the world is ending when on the receiving end of a barrage). That's just my opinion tho, if it stays it stays and in the end you just adapt.

A G13 allows you to fire 1234 while on the move by using the thumbstick for WSAD.

[Coralld]

The macro for the AC2 hurts like hell but its more annoying as sh*t then anything else, as well as allow them to kill steal easier. What gets me is, if you can do it in game by running your firing groups a specific way then why need a macro at all? Because its easier? Sounds like some one needs a crutch to me.

But as I said, the AC2 macro is more of a pain in arse, the macro for the UAC5 on the other hand that allows you to circumvent the jam IS a problem and is bull crap, and in my book, cheating. A Phract with 2 UAC5s and 2 AC5s using a macro to prevent jamming is like going up against a mech with 2 RAC5s that never jam.

[Jamal Konenakki]

Why do hoi polloi get to make such [redacted] threads? Plebeians should know their place.

Edited by Niko Snow, 29 July 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[Fais]

Coralld, on 29 July 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

The macro for the AC2 hurts like hell but its more annoying as sh*t then anything else, as well as allow them to kill steal easier. What gets me is, if you can do it in game by running your firing groups a specific way then why need a macro at all? Because its easier? Sounds like some one needs a crutch to me.

But as I said, the AC2 macro is more of a pain in arse, the macro for the UAC5 on the other hand that allows you to circumvent the jam IS a problem and is bull crap, and in my book, cheating. A Phract with 2 UAC5s and 2 AC5s using a macro to prevent jamming is like going up against a mech with 2 RAC5s that never jam.

Yea didnt bring up the UAC5 on purpose

[WALD]

Mystere, on 29 July 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

A G13 allows you to fire 1234 while on the move by using the thumbstick for WSAD.

I understand this, which is why I don't see that many utilizing the AC/2's in that fashion. It is a very likely explanation for what I've seen and not a macro. I'm just going off the assumption that a large majority of the player population doesn't have a G13. For those that have one then kudos to you, do with it what you will.

[Hexenhammer]

You know. I don't think its PGI's fault or mine when I use a macro in MWO. It's Logitech. It's their mouse. They made it possible so lets sue them. They've got the money.

Edited by Hexenhammer, 29 July 2013 - 03:23 PM.

[Mystere]

Coralld, on 29 July 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

The macro for the AC2 hurts like hell but its more annoying as sh*t then anything else, as well as allow them to kill steal easier. What gets me is, if you can do it in game by running your firing groups a specific way then why need a macro at all? Because its easier? Sounds like some one needs a crutch to me.

I see a macro as an aid that helps a gamer simplify a set of actions so that more brain matter can be devoted in doing another set of actions.

Obviously you have not yet seen a Minbari of the Religious Caste configure his macros.

Edited by Mystere, 29 July 2013 - 01:28 PM.

[Coralld]

Mystere, on 29 July 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

I see a macro as an aid that helps a gamer simplify a set of actions so that more brain matter can be devoted in doing another set of actions.

Obviously you have not yet seen a Minbari of the Religious Caste configure his macros.

Isan't that for the most part the very definition of a crutch?

Regardless, the OP asked how it made me feel, and that is how I feel.

Edited by Coralld, 29 July 2013 - 01:32 PM.

[scJazz]

Instead of reading the 500 other threads in Game Balance regarding how people feel about Macros you decided to start another one?

GJ!

[Tesunie]

Ransack, on 29 July 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Why does no one complain about TAG. Last time I checked it wasn't a toggle. must be using "something" to keep it on all the time right?

Anyway, Macros don't do anything that you cannot do without them. They do not change the rules of the game, nor do they break the rules of the game.

But there where complaints. And now PGI has stated that they are working on toggling TAG to be an on or off system... in the future. It's in the works now.

They make an action easier for someone else to do, if not preform some tasks that can't be humanly replicated, such as the timing to keep UACs from jaming while still getting the fastest possible spew of ammo out. If they permit macros that preform these tasks, I'm just wondering why they don't just add it into the game. Similar to the toggle for TAG that is in the works.

MaddMaxx, on 29 July 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

A sliding Group Fire could never be set below .5 seconds anyways. That would then allow the CD's to be tampered with. Why do you think the GF is set at .5 seconds to start ffs? Do you want a longer GF setting to be allowed? Really!

Other than the MG, which does not have a CD, only the AC2 recycles at .5 seconds. As noted for the millionth time. A macro does not defeat the CD. How to make your own in game "AC2 macro" has been explained. What more can one ask for...

Cool downs would not get messed with if the chain fire slider was removed. It'd be no different than just holding the button down in group fire mode. It will only fire a weapon in the chain after it has cooled down. It's no different than pressing the fir button multiple times while in chain fire. When you do that, if the next weapon can fire, it does, by passing the 0.5 time limit of auto-chain fire. A Macro takes this manual overide and forces it to shoot at a specific time. Be that less or more than the chain fire limit.

The "own in game macro" has been explained, and would take at least three or more weapon fire groups to fire. And would have to be consciously restarted every time you wish to start shooting like that again. Unlike a Macro which happens as soon as you press the button, and would take only one fire group to work.

One of the bigger problems I found with chain fire was that it would studder/stall/delay the full cycle when it came around. It would basically hickup when it went full cycle, even if the next weapon was ready to fire. This made me shy away from an AC2 or AC5 version of the Jager when I was playing it.

Fais, on 29 July 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Although the OP is mistaken as far as I know about the DPS being increased by a macro. It does raise the issue. If you setup a 5 AC/2 jager. Assign each gun to a different weapon group. Then setup a macro to fire them in .1 second intervals. You are efectivly hitting the opponent with 10 seperate shots in 1 second. Thats alot of shaking and smoke to deal with. I'm not sure that it would be all that effective but I have never been on the recieving end of that either.

So, shooting your guns as soon as they become reloaded instead of having to be forced to wait an auto-specific time, or pressing the button at a slightly lower speed (minus the many weapon group work around, which replicate the Macro with a lot of extra work) than your true reload time doesn't increase you DPS? Last I knew, shooting off shots as soon as they become avalible is more DPS compared to shooting less shots off in the same time frame.

Thus, I theorize that most Macros actually increase your DPS, even if it's at cost of ammo and heat. You also forget that, though it all wont hit the same spot unlike group fired weapons, it will make a few missed shots effect you less. This means that you can lead into faster moving targets, hitting them with a tracing of shots, compared to a single group shot that might miss. Sure, a group shot has better convergence and such, but the rapid fire shot can track into a target and then settle in once you get the lead right.

Macros maximize your DPS, if you can keep a good bead on someone that is. It makes you shoot as soon as your weapons are able to (or in the case of UACs, when it is safest to). Sure, there are some ways of producing similar effects as a Macro in game, but I still feel it should be included in the game if that is what they want to have happen.

Kunae, on 29 July 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

It's a gimmick, similar to a 6-PPC stalker build.

It can hurt nubs, but it really more of an annoyance, than a threat, to a competent player.

6 PPC Stalker might have been a gimmick, but it still hurts if he hits you. Of course, if he doesn't, he's probably lunch.

Even "competent" players can have bad days. I'd say it's still a threat, just like a PPC Stalker is still a threat. At least... till he shuts down from heat that is.

Griffinhart, on 29 July 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

I dispute this. It is IMPOSSIBLE for 4 or 5 AC2's to almost kill a mech in a fraction of a second. If they are doing any sort of chain firing, macro or not, is even less likely to do so than the same load in group fire. The macro does let the pilot shoot cycle through the weapon list faster than all of them in chain fire, This doesn't mean they can shoot them at a faster rate though. You can also get a very similar effect by grouping two and two. Then you click the left mouse button and hold followed quickly by the second mouse button and holding. It staggers the two chain fired groups to get the same effect. Realistically, All methods of chain firing the AC2 do not work as well as just group firing them.

Well, explain how a 5 AC2 Jagermech made my Jenner go from pristine CT armor, to red internals in a single second of shooting. He was my only target, first one I met up with in the match, and he almost killed me with a "glance". It seemed odd to me at the time, but I dismissed it anyway and kept on fighting. Ended up winning as friends showed up, he shot at "everyone" and overheated, and we as a team ate him. I don't know how he did it, but it was fairly brutal on my end. (PS: I wasn't standing still and was moving full speed to the side of him.)

Lostdragon, on 29 July 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

Some of the comments in this thread demonstrate a very poor understanding of the mechanics of the game and math in general. You cannot produce more DPS chainfiring or using a macro than you can group firing. Period. Once you understand that, you can realize that group firing is in fact the best way to kill someone and the most ammo efficient method.

If you have ever played a mech with 4+ AC2s you know that running out of ammo and exposing yourself to keep damage on target are very real and very dangerous issues. Yes, in one second you can pout out 20 dmg with 5 AC2s but you are likely spreading your damage all over the enemy and/or missing with some shots. By group firing if you have decent aim you can put all 20 points of damage in one spot and take defensive action (twist or use cover) during recycle time.

Basically the only good thing about the macro/rapid fire technique is suppression. You can scare an enemy and disrupt his aim a bit at the cost of exposing yourself to return fire. When facing one or more opponents that can put 40+ damage into you, hide 4s then do it again you are not going to last long. If you are fighting a decent opponent he is going to be twisting defensively to keep you away from his CT so while you are standing there plinking away at him he is laughing at your dps while his teammates core you in 3 huge volleys. At least that is what I see when someone is playing an AC2 build (which I rarely see) but ymmv depending on ELO I guess.

Actually, as I already explained in this post, a Macro can improve your DPS if set up properly. Having your UAC jam from shooting a hair too soon ruins your DPS. Having your AC2s shooting as soon as they can with no delay (or having to set up the timing manually) also means that you get a few more bullets into the air that much faster. Am I going to say it's game breaking DPS? No. You can achieve the same DPS by group firing the AC2s and holding the fire button down so it shoots as soon as it reloads. But in chain fire mode there is a delay of 0.5 between shots, and a mysterious delay when it full round cycles through all weapons in the chain (if you just hold the button down). I also shall state again, group firing can also lead to an all damage or none situation. Chain firing might spread your damage, but you can sometimes land more hits with a chain fire than a group fire.

I have, and yes. Running out of ammo is a big problem. With AC2s, you also tend to shoot so fast you overheat. I've do it with a Jager before I defaulted to the dual AC20 or dual Gauss. I'm not saying there are draw backs to a Macro with AC2s, but I'm just saying what it feels like. To me, something doesn't feel right about it. I'm asking what others feel about it, more or less. I'm also asking why you feel that way.

I shall admit I don't see very many AC2 builds, so I don't think this Macro is necessarily breaking the game, but at the same time something doesn't seem right. I also feel that, if PGI wishes to either encourage this or wishes for it to be in the game, then they should just place it into the game. Either by literally putting it in, or at least let us know it's a feature in the works. Very much like the TAG toggle. It's coming, just they don't know when. They have larger projects to work on, and I understand that.

Mystere, on 29 July 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Someone said before that sticking a toothpick(?) into the keyboard seems to work for TAG. Is that an exploit too?

I've heard of games that this was considered an exploit as a physical way to override manual human control over some part of the game. They classified anything that made took control of any part of the game from a human interface to be a form of boting or hacking. WM:O I don't think cares if you do this, as it's impossible to truly prevent or really prove such an action.

[Ransack]

Coralld, on 29 July 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

The macro for the AC2 hurts like hell but its more annoying as sh*t then anything else, as well as allow them to kill steal easier. What gets me is, if you can do it in game by running your firing groups a specific way then why need a macro at all? Because its easier? Sounds like some one needs a crutch to me.

But as I said, the AC2 macro is more of a pain in arse, the macro for the UAC5 on the other hand that allows you to circumvent the jam IS a problem and is bull crap, and in my book, cheating. A Phract with 2 UAC5s and 2 AC5s using a macro to prevent jamming is like going up against a mech with 2 RAC5s that never jam.

You CANNOT avoid UAC 5 jams. The things have a tendency to jam on the first shot. The only thing you can do with macro is adjust the timing of your firing. The UAC5 is supposed to be quirky such that it cam jam if you fire it too fast. The thing the macro is doing is slowing down the firing rate.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Tesuine you mentioned above that you believe using a macro increases your DPS, that's simply not true. It does increase your damage over time you fire, but whether you use macros or not isn't the scapegoat for that. If I use a normal keyboard with WASD as for my movement, I can set my space bar (normally set for JJ's) as the same weapon group I have all my A/C 2's in. from there I have a choice, I can watch as each weapon's cool down time is up and fire another round, or use chain fire to do that for me. Setting that group to chain fire creates the exact same damage over time as using my 5th mouse button that is set up the same way using a macro. With a macro you cannot override the cool down time of any weapon to make it fire faster, that's it, that's the end of the story. IF there's a program out there that can do that and it's used on the gameplay servers, PGI does review that data and will ban the person using them.

[Tesunie]

Ransack, on 29 July 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

You CANNOT avoid UAC 5 jams. The things have a tendency to jam on the first shot. The only thing you can do with macro is adjust the timing of your firing. The UAC5 is supposed to be quirky such that it cam jam if you fire it too fast. The thing the macro is doing is slowing down the firing rate.

A Macro for the UAC5 raises the DPS of the weapon by avoiding the jam rate by keeping the weapon from firing too quickly. Most shots that "jam after one shot" is actually the game registering two clicks instead of one. A Macro to slow your shooting so it wont shoot any faster than one click in x amount of time prevents jamming.

Didn't someone say that Macros can't/don't increase the DPS of a weapon by any means?

[KuruptU4Fun]

No macro can raise the Damage Per Second of a weapon, and you need to stop using that as a point of debate. The only thing a macro can do is optimize the time from when a shot is fired from a weapon and the cooldown rate has returned to zero so the weapon can be fired again. Or in the UAC's case, when that "chance" to jam has past and the weapon can be fired again without the likelyhood of jamming. Mind you I said likelyhood, not absolute certainty.

[Tesunie]

KuruptU4Fun, on 29 July 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

Tesuine you mentioned above that you believe using a macro increases your DPS, that's simply not true. It does increase your damage over time you fire, but whether you use macros or not isn't the scapegoat for that. If I use a normal keyboard with WASD as for my movement, I can set my space bar (normally set for JJ's) as the same weapon group I have all my A/C 2's in. from there I have a choice, I can watch as each weapon's cool down time is up and fire another round, or use chain fire to do that for me. Setting that group to chain fire creates the exact same damage over time as using my 5th mouse button that is set up the same way using a macro. With a macro you cannot override the cool down time of any weapon to make it fire faster, that's it, that's the end of the story. IF there's a program out there that can do that and it's used on the gameplay servers, PGI does review that data and will ban the person using them.

It can. Don't know about anyone else, but when I held down the button (not clicking it constantly to force the cycle to the next weapon) I had a tremor/pause between full cycles. It would shoot the series quickly, and then stop and wait for a moment before shooting the same chain again. Avoiding this "pause" from basic chain fire with a macro (and increasing the wait from the 0.5 seconds to whatever happens to be the cool down of the weapon) would increase the DPS of a weapon. Even if only slightly. I'm not talking, as you seem to keep trying to shove, about overcoming the weapons cool down timer. I'm talking about shooting a weapon as soon as that cool down is done, instead of moments after (or even fractions of seconds). Am I saying that Macros alter a weapons cool down timer? No. Am I saying it's going to increase dramatically the DPS of a weapon? Not really. But if (random numbers as I don't know the real ones, unless you want me to find real ones for an example, which I can) say an AC2 shoots and reloads every 0.4 seconds, and chain fire refines every 0.5 seconds, but a Macro can easily (with the click of a button) shoot the AC2s at their reload time of 0.4 seconds, that 0.1 second sooner per shot adds up. For every 4 shots the chain fire (in this example) would get, the macro would get 5. That (in random made up number exercise) would equal an extra 2 damage over chain fire for every 2 seconds. Thus, it can increase DPS theoretically.

I'm wondering what would happen if we place MG on chain fire? Hum... Would it fire one bullet, move on to the next in 0.5 seconds and then slow down the DPS of a MG?

On with more analysis. When I used Chain Fire for my 4 AC2 Jagermech (back when I had it), after the 4 shots, even though the 1 AC was ready to shoot, I would have a delay in shooting it for no reason. Same with UAC5 in a set of 3. That delay is caused (intentionally or unintentionally) a lower DPS than it should have had. That, right there, would make a Macro cause more DPS, as it doesn't have a strange pause to it like the Chain Fire did for me. This would give anyone with a Macro a huge advantage over my quad AC2 or tri UAC5 jagermech, as they don't have this pause. (For simplicity sake, I'm running only on Chain Fire here and a single weapon grouping. Though I give credit and applause to those who found the multi-weapon group and group fire combo to produce the same effects.) I'd have to say this pause felt like a 0.5 second pause between the weapons continuing to shoot from cycle to cycle. It would do great, until it got back to the first weapon, and then would pause again before continuing.

[Mystere]

Coralld, on 29 July 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Isan't that for the most part the very definition of a crutch?

You say crutch, I say simplifying a low-level activity (e.g. rhythmically pressing 1234) to be able to concentrate more on higher-level one (e.g shooting while piloting).

Coralld, on 29 July 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Regardless, the OP asked how it made me feel, and that is how I feel.

And by the same token I say macros are perfectly fine.

[Tesunie]

KuruptU4Fun, on 29 July 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

No macro can raise the Damage Per Second of a weapon, and you need to stop using that as a point of debate. The only thing a macro can do is optimize the time from when a shot is fired from a weapon and the cooldown rate has returned to zero so the weapon can be fired again. Or in the UAC's case, when that "chance" to jam has past and the weapon can be fired again without the likelyhood of jamming. Mind you I said likelyhood, not absolute certainty.

It can't raise it's max possible DPS, but it can make it do it will do it's max DSP possible. I do understand that.

I think we are on the same track, just on different rails of it. Yes, you can't raise the max DPS of a weapon with a Macro. However, you can make a weapon shoot at this max DPS, instead of being slowed down by the programing of the Chain Fire mechanic. So, I think we are arguing about different sides of the same coin. We each are right.

[Tesunie]

Mystere, on 29 July 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

You say crutch, I say simplifying a low-level activity (e.g. rhythmically pressing 1234) to be able to concentrate more on higher-level one (e.g shooting while piloting).



And by the same token I say macros are perfectly fine.

Taking that effort of concentrating on a different task that everyone else has to do who doesn't have this 3rd party program does give an advantage. That's all I'm really saying on that.

I don't mind the Macros, if they want them in the game though they should make it so it can be done strictly in the game. Just how I feel on the subject.

[KuruptU4Fun]

OK, let me put some real world numbers in here for you, Pulled from in game info for the most part
The damage a round does is 5 per shot (this cannot be changed by a macro)

The cool down rate is 1.1 seconds
If you fire the weapon again before it cools down there is a percentage rate for it to jam. Now macros can optimize that so once the cool down time reaches .75s seconds the weapon will not jam if fired again. Chain fire cannot do that, but people can learn how to fire the weapon without jamming based on their own skill. I've also heard people have used an internet based metronome to bypass the jamming as well.

An A/C 2 cool down rate is 0.5 seconds. A macro cannot make that weapon fire any faster or do more damage than the assigned 2 dmg per shot. A macro can only do the exact same thing that chain fire can do when all the A/c 2's can do when put into the same weapon group. Fire each one in a cycle (example of 4) rounds at 2 seconds from the time to the first one is fired until it goes back to the first AC to fire again.

Quote

But if (random numbers as I don't know the real ones, unless you want me to find real ones for an example, which I can) say an AC2 shoots and reloads every 0.4 seconds, and chain fire refines every 0.5 seconds, but a Macro can easily (with the click of a button) shoot the AC2s at their reload time of 0.4 seconds, that 0.1 second sooner per shot adds up. For every 4 shots the chain fire (in this example) would get, the macro would get 5

This is an assumption, if you choose to look at the in game weapon information I've pulled the numbers from. You'd see that it's accurate.

The only thing a macro can do thus far is this:

Maximize the opportunity to bypass the jam rate percentage of a UA/C so that the weapon fires every .75 seconds and stops the likelyhood of the weapon jamming.

Allowing TAG to run all the time and not having to hold the button down continuously.