138 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

KuruptU4Fun, on 29 July 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

OK, let me put some real world numbers in here for you, Pulled from in game info for the most part
The damage a round does is 5 per shot (this cannot be changed by a macro)

The cool down rate is 1.1 seconds
If you fire the weapon again before it cools down there is a percentage rate for it to jam. Now macros can optimize that so once the cool down time reaches .75s seconds the weapon will not jam if fired again. Chain fire cannot do that, but people can learn how to fire the weapon without jamming based on their own skill. I've also heard people have used an internet based metronome to bypass the jamming as well.

An A/C 2 cool down rate is 0.5 seconds. A macro cannot make that weapon fire any faster or do more damage than the assigned 2 dmg per shot. A macro can only do the exact same thing that chain fire can do when all the A/c 2's can do when put into the same weapon group. Fire each one in a cycle (example of 4) rounds at 2 seconds from the time to the first one is fired until it goes back to the first AC to fire again.



This is an assumption, if you choose to look at the in game weapon information I've pulled the numbers from. You'd see that it's accurate.

The only thing a macro can do thus far is this:

Maximize the opportunity to bypass the jam rate percentage of a UA/C so that the weapon fires every .75 seconds and stops the likelyhood of the weapon jamming.

Allowing TAG to run all the time and not having to hold the button down continuously.

Okay. Chain fire will shoot the next weapon in 0.5 seconds. An AC2 shoots and cools down/reloads in 0.5 seconds. 2 AC2s should thus fire without pause when chain fired. Correct? When I had a dual AC2 Cicada, I had it on chain fire and it would pause before shooting again. It would shoot twice, pause and shoot twice again.

Also, 4 AC2 on chain fire alone (just using Chain Fire mechanic, as it's closest to the single press of a button to get a continuous stream of fire) would take 2 full seconds to go around in a cycle. Correct?

However, with a Macro (or me being hyperactive with my fire button pressing, but a Macro is a single press and hold of the button, compared to constant mashing of the button) can fire said same AC2s at 4 shots in 0.5 seconds. This means that, between a macro and standard chain fire mechanic with a single button press (and no other gimmicks) a Macro will produce 16 shots in the same amount of time a chain fired AC2 will get 4 on a single held button press. Also, this is maximized to literally be either a flood of constant clicks, or literally a click every 0.124 seconds to maximize DPS.

4 shots in 2 seconds, or 16 shots in 2 seconds based just on the chain fire, single press and hold of the fire button for your weapon group. Which does more DPS? Macro does for the same effort. Thus, a Macro can and does increase DPS of a weapon set to chain fire. And that's excluding the hiccup I was experiencing back when I was using these weapons myself on chain fire. Did they ever fix that by the way? Or does it still delay between full cycles of the same weapon in chain fire mode? If the delay is still there, then it's even slower than the macro, again.

This is, of course, going off the information that chain fire shoots the next available weapon off cool down in 0.5 seconds of the previous weapon. If I am incorrect on this information, then please understand I am working with incorrect data and would kindly love to have correct data presented to me to reconfigure my math accordingly. Also, videos anyone has on the training grounds showing the difference between Macro fire, Basic Chain Fire and a gimmick pseudo Macro fire would be great for this topic. Anyone has any?

(Fixed some grammar.)

Edited by Tesunie, 29 July 2013 - 04:21 PM.

[InMidnightClad]

I played paintball for 7 years. With 2 fingers over my Mouse 1 button I can easily do short bursts of over 600 rounds per min. How on earth would you police people from using macros that originate from an external source? If you just started punishing people who shoot fast you start getting innocent people like me. Also where do you draw the line?

If I attached one of these...

To the trigger on my joystick i can fire just as fast as a macro but I'm doing it mechanically. Is the heart of the problem that some people are shooting faster than others or that some people are shooting faster than the arbitrary number you've decided is correct?

Edit: Rehosted image

Edited by InMidnightClad, 29 July 2013 - 04:46 PM.

[Tesunie]

InMidnightClad, on 29 July 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

I played paintball for 7 years. With 2 fingers over my Mouse 1 button I can easily do short bursts of over 120 rounds per min. How on earth would you police people from using macros that originate from an external source? If you just started punishing people who shoot fast you start getting innocent people like me. Also where do you draw the line?

If I attached one of these...

To the trigger on my joystick i can fire just as fast as a macro but I'm doing it mechanically. Is the heart of the problem that some people are shooting faster than others or that some people are shooting faster than the arbitrary number you've decided is correct?

Your picture link is broken, but still. If it is being pressed manually (which would show as an inconsistent spacing between the presses of the button), then I would have no issue and would call it a talent. However, I'm only saying that PGI says it's okay to use Macros which I feel (key word is feel) is giving some players an edge over others. That being said, I feel if PGI wants to say its okay (as I agree, it would be fairly hard to determine if someone is or isn't using such a program without having some kind of scanner attached to the game, and more work than it's worth) then they should add (or at least announce) a addition of either a timing slider to chain fire, or a rapid fire that will shoot as soon as the next weapon is available, without waiting for the 0.5 second delay.

Though, I do ask, how do you feel about macros? It sounds like you've worked hard to develop a "skill" of rapidly clicking the fire button. Do you want everyone else to be able to replicate your skill by a program that will do what you manually do and worked hard to be able to do with just a single easy press of a button? Wouldn't you prefer to be able to do this yourself without having to install unknown programs onto your computer that may or may not work for your own programs and may or may not have a virus in it?

Anyway, I'm not petitioning for the game to be change (yet at least). I'm more so wondering what other people feel about this mechanic and how it's being used in the game. What are your opinions (excluding PGI's decision on the matter) about Macros in the game?

[Deathlike]

I hate to say this, but the "feel" part is completely psychological.

Unless the macros ACTUALLY bypass the server enforced cooldown (which they don't), the dakka noise is beautiful and a hint to tell you to GET TO COVER ASAP.

If you're being cut down by a AC2 boating Jager, it's because you expose yourself long enough to let it chew you up. There are no exceptions to this rule.

[Farix]

Tesunie, on 29 July 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

A Macro for the UAC5 raises the DPS of the weapon by avoiding the jam rate by keeping the weapon from firing too quickly. Most shots that "jam after one shot" is actually the game registering two clicks instead of one. A Macro to slow your shooting so it wont shoot any faster than one click in x amount of time prevents jamming.

Didn't someone say that Macros can't/don't increase the DPS of a weapon by any means?

Not really. I've ran several tests with and without a macro and found that the DPS of the non-macro fire was significantly higher than the macro version by a significant margin. The variable, however, is disciple. Does the person release the trigger and wait for the weapon to clear and cool down before firing again. If you keep pressing the fire button through a jam, it will cause the UAC to fire once and jam again.

All a macro does it provide a more consistent DPS by reducing the potential of jams. It does not actually increase DPS.

[Mystere]

Jamal Konenakki, on 29 July 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

Why do hoi polloi get to make such [redacted] threads? Plebeians should know their place.

Niko Snow, on 29 July 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

As should Equestrians, especially in the presence of Patricians.

It's time for someone to commit seppuku:
[Image Removed]

Edited by Niko Snow, 29 July 2013 - 04:44 PM.
Harakiri

[TehSBGX]

For all the macro kids out there.

[Tesunie]

TehSBGX, on 29 July 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

For all the macro kids out there.

I remember those! Only ever used one once, just to goof around with unlimited lives.

[Jaguar Prime]

Wow! I wanted to say something snarky about everyone having input on game balance. But..... I think those who read this are already reevaluating there opinion on that.

[Daemir]

Tesunie

If you toggle ingame chain fire on, that will introduce a forced 0.5s pause on that weapon group if you just hold the button down.

BUT

if you assign your ACs to different weapon groups and do not toggle chain fire on them, but simply create the chain fire effect by pressing and holding the buttons in a sequence, you'll shoot at the absolute maximum fire rate the game allows.

now, MACROS that do the chain fire will, especially in the UAC5 case, have built in delays written in the macro to keep the stream of bullets steady to counter lag. This will decrease your dps, but will give you the smooth stream of bullets instead.

The absolute highest dps you can do with ACs is to assign them all in one group and simply alpha fire that group continuously, this way the weapons will refire every time they are done recycling. This is why macros will always be just below that maximum dps and NEVER above it.

If you are toying ingame with the game's own chainfire instead of doing it manually with several weapon groups, then you may notice less dps since the chain fire function has a delay of 0.5, while your AC2s will refire at 0.48 I believe with fast fire efficiency. Do not use the archaic chainfire function, it's rubbish.

e: oh and you do not need to rapidly hammer a button to keep firing, assign all your ACs to 1 group like LMB, then assign 1 or 2 of them to another group. Fire the other group once, then 0.25s later just hold down LMB. There, chain fire near macro style with no delays by holding down your mouse button. And naturally do not toggle chain fire on to this group.

Edited by Erish II, 29 July 2013 - 05:19 PM.

[InMidnightClad]

Tesunie, on 29 July 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Though, I do ask, how do you feel about macros? It sounds like you've worked hard to develop a "skill" of rapidly clicking the fire button. Do you want everyone else to be able to replicate your skill by a program that will do what you manually do and worked hard to be able to do with just a single easy press of a button? Wouldn't you prefer to be able to do this yourself without having to install unknown programs onto your computer that may or may not work for your own programs and may or may not have a virus in it?

I'm legitimately ok with them. There IS a limit in place that is completely impossible to bypass. Weapon Cooldown X number of weapons mounted. No matter if someone reaches that limit with fast fingers, macro software, an expensive gaming mouse, or a mechanical crank attached to a trigger it's all the same.

Besides as someone capable of reaching the cap manually do I suddenly earn the right to use a macro? Does it suddenly make a difference if I'm clicking once or 600 times? What if I lost my index finger in an accident? Everything is too gray to worry about anything other than A) There is a maximum limit Chain fire is built around the Heat penalty timer.

[Tesunie]

Erish II, on 29 July 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

Tesunie

If you toggle ingame chain fire on, that will introduce a forced 0.5s pause on that weapon group if you just hold the button down.

BUT

if you assign your ACs to different weapon groups and do not toggle chain fire on them, but simply create the chain fire effect by pressing and holding the buttons in a sequence, you'll shoot at the absolute maximum fire rate the game allows.

now, MACROS that do the chain fire will, especially in the UAC5 case, have built in delays written in the macro to keep the stream of bullets steady to counter lag. This will decrease your dps, but will give you the smooth stream of bullets instead.

The absolute highest dps you can do with ACs is to assign them all in one group and simply alpha fire that group continuously, this way the weapons will refire every time they are done recycling. This is why macros will always be just below that maximum dps and NEVER above it.

If you are toying ingame with the game's own chainfire instead of doing it manually with several weapon groups, then you may notice less dps since the chain fire function has a delay of 0.5, while your AC2s will refire at 0.48 I believe with fast fire efficiency. Do not use the archaic chainfire function, it's rubbish.

You loose max DPS for the ability to trace your opponent and lead your fire into them. However, my comparison is with the built in Chain Fire in comparison to a Macro fire. Macro fire, as you put is, is superior. If Chain Fire is that bad, why don't we ask PGI to look into it's function? Why not ask for them to consider a feature where we can determine how often Chain Fire will shoot the next weapon so we can emulate the Macro without needing to devote our entire weapon configuration bar (slight exaggeration I shall admit) to create a pseudo Macro? A Macro has the advantage over the pseudo macro in the fact that it takes only one click with no extra effort on the users part, and the pseudo version requires the player to reset the timing and function every time they wish to chain fire in such a manner.

[Daemir]

Why this and that and...

yea i have a lot of "why is this done XYZ" for PGI but they seem to be unable to get the basics done, like hit detection. GL with the launch date is all I can say.

I don't personally understand why the **** is the chain fire still in these games anyway, who has used that **** since like MW2? We've been able to bind weapon groups for ages to actual buttons. Maybe in MW2 it was needed because keybinding anything in that game is truely and adventure into frustration and confusion, but since then...?

Alpha firing the ACs is better as you'll get the pinpoint effect we all so much enjoy in this game. If you aim well, that's a gauss shot per second to a location with 4 AC2s. How many mechs in the game can sustain a gauss slug per second long to their core. Anyway, bottom line is, macro doesn't increase dps or damage, ingame chain fire is crap, alpha your guns for max effect and possibly avoiding the heat bug they introduced to AC2s.

[Tesunie]

InMidnightClad, on 29 July 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

I'm legitimately ok with them. There IS a limit in place that is completely impossible to bypass. Weapon Cooldown X number of weapons mounted. No matter if someone reaches that limit with fast fingers, macro software, an expensive gaming mouse, or a mechanical crank attached to a trigger it's all the same.

Besides as someone capable of reaching the cap manually do I suddenly earn the right to use a macro? Does it suddenly make a difference if I'm clicking once or 600 times? What if I lost my index finger in an accident? Everything is too gray to worry about anything other than A) There is a maximum limit Chain fire is built around the Heat penalty timer.

Thus, I'm under the opinion that if it's okay, then it should be added into the game mechanics. Maybe not right now, but have it as an intended feature would be nice. I'd be fine with it if it was in the works.

I also see the difference between someone having to manually click (each click might disrupt your aim a bit, and it takes conscious effort to preform such a task) and a single click macro making it easier for them. Once you start mentioning disabilities... well... things can get messy on that. We can't (as much as I would love to) plan a game to account for every possible handicap out there.

[Joseph Mallan]

TehSBGX, on 29 July 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

For all the macro kids out there.

LOL that is old school! They look like this now:

[MustrumRidcully]

If your game gets better by out-of-game macros, your game controls need work.

IMO, out of game macros should be replaced by in-game macros.

Complex programmable chain-fire would be a good start, especially if the terrible heat scale penalty is supposed to stick around.

[Lord of All]

Not for nothing but using a macro because you cannot control your weapons is no different than using an aimbot because you can't aim.

But thats just my opinion and the devs say it's ok, probably because there is no way they could monitor it.

But yes it is a crutch. If your not good enough to play on a level playing field then use your crutches, I'll still kill you.

[Jamal Konenakki]

Mystere, on 29 July 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

It's time for someone to commit seppuku:
[Image Removed]

It is a man's way to die. Does this worthless earthworm, hiding behind the moderator, think itself human? How droll.

[Tarrasque]

OP, for what it's worth, I agree with you.


I understand PGI is OK with macros - I have a mouse capable of them myself, but I wouldn't do that.

Why?

Because I realize that the argument for is the same argument the PPC boaters use (along with anyone else who takes advantage of an unintended imbalance): "It's in the game, so I should abuse it as much as humanly possible!"

I don't subscribe to that notion. Call me idealistic, but if, for example, the UAC/5 was meant to fire without jamming, there would/should be a setting in game to make it so. What is the point of having a jamming mechanism on a weapon that can be completely circumvented by a program that measures time 100% accurately (something humans cannot do), nullifying the entire mechanic to begin with?

It makes zero sense to me, but I abide by PGI and the uber master powergamers who's only response is 'lol l2p noob', as I have no other choice.

Edited by Tarrasque, 30 July 2013 - 05:32 AM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

The jamming factor is timing based, if you want to run the risk of the weapon jamming, by all means fire it before it's completely cooled down. That's the way the weapon was built, high risk, high reward. Do macros take some advantage in that, yes. Should a customized chain fire be in game, certainly, just don't hold your breath.

One of the bigger reasons why I don't like that idea is that it leaves an opportunity to have a little light on your screen notify you that your Alpha strike is ready automatically since you've timed your chain fire to do that.

Tesunie, Are you using DPS as Damage Per Shot or Damage Per Second?

I'm wondering where you get some "feel" that the example I gave above that as 4 A/C 2 set can fire takes an additional .5 (for a total of 2.5) seconds using chain fire instead of a macro. As opposed to my example of firing 4 A/C 2's at one full cycle 2 seconds using a macro.

So chain fire cycling thru 4 rounds is 2.5 seconds total and my macro only takes 2 seconds. Where is your support to show that chain fire takes that additional time? The normal reload time for an AC2 is .5 seconds.

A Macro can only do what I've stated above that cannot be done in game yet. Maximizing fire with an UA/C to keep lower the chance to jam and keeping TAG running constantly.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 30 July 2013 - 08:01 AM.