301 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Livewyr, on 12 August 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Think of the game without pinpoint convergence.

Now Imagine you trying to kill that damned spider that's doing circles around you when you can only get 1, maybe two weapons on him at a time.

Your mech is big enough and slow that his 3 MPLs, or4 MGs are having no trouble hitting you all day long.. while he pretty much dances around you with impunity. (And you can replace Spider with about any light mech.. spider is just most obvious because of since it has a thin side profile and currently broken magical absorption armor)

I would argue that pinpoint convergence is the lesser of two evils.

I don't. My Atlas throws more than a 35 point Alpha, and I don't hear a word about how OP my 60+ Alpha is.

[El Bandito]

Livewyr, on 12 August 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Think of the game without pinpoint convergence. Now Imagine you trying to kill that damned spider that's doing circles around you when you can only get 1, maybe two weapons on him at a time. Your mech is big enough and slow that his 3 MPLs, or4 MGs are having no trouble hitting you all day long.. while he pretty much dances around you with impunity. (And you can replace Spider with about any light mech.. spider is just most obvious because of since it has a thin side profile and currently broken magical absorption armor) I would argue that pinpoint convergence is the lesser of two evils.

I said instant pin point convergence. The key word here is "instant". And if you read this thread of mine in which I explained how it will work:
http://mwomercs.com/...t-fire-weapons/

I specifically mentioned that you can have perfect accuracy within 400 meters--where you can hit back at Lights no problem. Any further than that the targeting computer should take a small time (0.5-2 seconds, depending on distance) to perfectly converge weapons. It will balance long range sniping as well as keeping up with Lore.

Joseph Mallan, on 12 August 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

I don't. My Atlas throws more than a 35 point Alpha, and I don't hear a word about how OP my 60+ Alpha is.

Atlas is so 2012.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 August 2013 - 01:05 AM.

[Sephlock]

Livewyr, on 12 August 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Think of the game without pinpoint convergence.

Now Imagine you trying to kill that damned spider that's doing circles around you when you can only get 1, maybe two weapons on him at a time.

Your mech is big enough and slow that his 3 MPLs, or4 MGs are having no trouble hitting you all day long.. while he pretty much dances around you with impunity. (And you can replace Spider with about any light mech.. spider is just most obvious because of since it has a thin side profile and currently broken magical absorption armor)

I would argue that pinpoint convergence is the lesser of two evils.

That's why we need working SSRMs, not this useless atrocity we have now.

[El Bandito]

Sephlock, on 13 August 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

That's why we need working SSRMs, not this useless atrocity we have now.

Wanna bet PGI will not buff SSRM2 in the next patch despite the uselessness?

Wait, that is just depressing.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 August 2013 - 01:07 AM.

[FatBabyThompkins]

Livewyr, on 12 August 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Think of the game without pinpoint convergence.

Now Imagine you trying to kill that damned spider that's doing circles around you when you can only get 1, maybe two weapons on him at a time.

Your mech is big enough and slow that his 3 MPLs, or4 MGs are having no trouble hitting you all day long.. while he pretty much dances around you with impunity. (And you can replace Spider with about any light mech.. spider is just most obvious because of since it has a thin side profile and currently broken magical absorption armor)

I would argue that pinpoint convergence is the lesser of two evils.

I put pin-point convergence and hit registration as mutual inclusive fixes. You cannot have one without the other, IMO. You fix hit reg without some convergence fix, you'll only reinforce the PPCWarrior meta and lights will be dead fast. The flip side, fix convergence without hit reg, and lights will become more OP than they probably already are.

Now we can argue that lights should be able to kill assaults. The light's strength, its speed, is the polar opposite of the assault's weakness. In that sense Light < Medium < Heavy < Assault < Light. It's roshambo keeping everything nice and balanced. Otherwise you have Assaults as the top mech with nothing to defeat it other than another Assault, a virtual arms race towards Assault mechs.

[Xanquil]

Livewyr, on 12 August 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Think of the game without pinpoint convergence.

Now Imagine you trying to kill that damned spider that's doing circles around you when you can only get 1, maybe two weapons on him at a time.

Your mech is big enough and slow that his 3 MPLs, or4 MGs are having no trouble hitting you all day long.. while he pretty much dances around you with impunity. (And you can replace Spider with about any light mech.. spider is just most obvious because of since it has a thin side profile and currently broken magical absorption armor)

I would argue that pinpoint convergence is the lesser of two evils.

Personally I would love for them to temporarily disable group fire. until they figure out how to make multiple weapons fired at the same time not always hit the same place. As for the fear of lights becoming OP, rapid fire weapons and SSRMs are designed to deal with them. After all you do not use a hammer to kill a fly. You can but it isn't the best weapon to do so. (oh look a reason for mixed loadouts :} )

[Tombstoner]

Heat neutral mech's dont sell cool shots.

[Livewyr]

El Bandito, on 13 August 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

I said instant pin point convergence. The key word here is "instant". And if you read this thread of mine in which I explained how it will work:
http://mwomercs.com/...t-fire-weapons/

I specifically mentioned that you can have perfect accuracy within 400 meters--where you can hit back at Lights no problem. Any further than that the targeting computer should take a small time (0.5-2 seconds, depending on distance) to perfectly converge weapons. It will balance long range sniping as well as keeping up with Lore.

Having convergence delay at 400+ meters is a moot point. (Most weapons I would think have to lead the target at 400ish and beyond.. so the weapons would be converged on the terrain you're pointed at rather than the target anyways.)

If the target is moving, and not an atlas.. you'd hardly ever converge and hit the target.. making it pointless programming effort.

[Joseph Mallan]

Unless you are firing lasers, convergence should be a bit looser the further away you are shooting.

[Lyoto Machida]

Livewyr, on 13 August 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

Having convergence delay at 400+ meters is a moot point. (Most weapons I would think have to lead the target at 400ish and beyond.. so the weapons would be converged on the terrain you're pointed at rather than the target anyways.)

If the target is moving, and not an atlas.. you'd hardly ever converge and hit the target.. making it pointless programming effort.

So have it that the currently targeted mech is what the convergence is based upon. This way, you don't have that terrain convergence issue from berore. If they're under cover of ECM, make it take longer to converge...this is under the assumption that ECM just makes targeting info, etc longer to acquire...not completely blocking locks.

[Livewyr]

Lyoto Machida, on 13 August 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

So have it that the currently targeted mech is what the convergence is based upon. This way, you don't have that terrain convergence issue from berore. If they're under cover of ECM, make it take longer to converge...this is under the assumption that ECM just makes targeting info, etc longer to acquire...not completely blocking locks.

That makes it ridiculously difficult to attack multiple targets..

And do we need to make ECM stronger than it already is? (Used to be just missiles were hosed.. now it's any mech at range?)

[Sephlock]

It seems like high heat just leads to cowering behind cover (while you cool down), which in turn leads to sniping (because if two sides are both cowering, guess who wins? The one that can hit the other from further away, forcing them to close the distance and get sniped as they do so)!

[Jungle Rhino]

Livewyr, on 13 August 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

Having convergence delay at 400+ meters is a moot point. (Most weapons I would think have to lead the target at 400ish and beyond.. so the weapons would be converged on the terrain you're pointed at rather than the target anyways.)

If the target is moving, and not an atlas.. you'd hardly ever converge and hit the target.. making it pointless programming effort.

That is why convergence should be set at the range to your current target. It makes sense and solves the issue of lead shooting at long range. If no target is selected convergence is set to 0 (no convergence) which would allow for consistent, if not pinpoint sniping at targets beyond sensor range or covered by ECM.

[FatBabyThompkins]

Namais, on 14 August 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

I'm with you on most points but I really don't see an unsolvable dichotomy from an anecdotal or even rational perspective. I think there's plenty of space for a real time fps with layers of complexity around mech builds and optimisation. It's hard to articulate but it seems comparable to Gran Tourismo in that you can play the entire thing without touching a spanner and enjoy a base level of optimisation, or you can spend nine tenths of your time tweaking suspension and air intakes. I do feel that a successful implementation of this franchise could easily play to a broad audience given a suitable and balanced range of customisation options.

I agree insofar as to say the hybrid we have now satisfies neither. There may indeed be a balance between the two, although the hardcore TT crowd will likely never be pleased (as hardcore never is). That is why I said almost mutually exclusive. The crux of my argument was it really does boil down to what, mostly, balanced TT is impossible or improbable in a real time shooter, namely hit probability and hit location. If every shot was probability based, then the twitch gamers wouldn't play. There are arguments for and against if that type of game would be fun for mass appeal. A twitch game is far removed from the TT concept. The current game is more twitch than TT, but still tries to be TT in some respects, but in ways that only enforce the twitch game play. IMO, PGI needs to find the game they want to make/play and make it rather than be hamstrung by either crowd. They're pleasing hardly anyone by trying to please everyone.

[Kaldor]

Sephlock, on 13 August 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

It seems like high heat just leads to cowering behind cover (while you cool down), which in turn leads to sniping (because if two sides are both cowering, guess who wins? The one that can hit the other from further away, forcing them to close the distance and get sniped as they do so)!

As it should. ERPPCs are used as a brawling weapon right now. I do it on a bunch of different mechs, its not hard, especially on anything that can mount a decent amount of heatsinks.

They nerf the PPCs back to canon heat, suddenly they need to wait longer between shots at range, which allows brawlers to close and fight. Sniper builds need to have a downside. In reality most builds with a gauss and 2 ERPPCs have almost no downside.

Jungle Rhino, on 14 August 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

That is why convergence should be set at the range to your current target. It makes sense and solves the issue of lead shooting at long range. If no target is selected convergence is set to 0 (no convergence) which would allow for consistent, if not pinpoint sniping at targets beyond sensor range or covered by ECM.

Nope, makes ECM too powerful. In a prefect world (the one without ECM) this would be a good solution. However, when a mech cannot be targeted.... Well you get the idea.

[Zerik]

Koniving, on 30 July 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

<p class="bbc_spoiler_wrapper">

• No matter how many heatsinks I have, the maximum heat I can generate at once without shutting down is 29? Because if I hit 30 I shut down, right? Wow, I never played BT, TT, or MW before but that's easy to understand!
  
• So the only difference between DHS and SHS is that DHS cools me twice as fast for less the same weight but takes up more slots? That's easy enough to understand.
  
• Wait, if I wanted to save I could carry 20 SHS and have the same benefits of 10 DHS? Awesome! That will help me save up for my second mech, I'll call him Johnny #5!
  
• That means if I needed more slots for the weapons I want, I could just use single heatsinks instead? I have weight to spare, let's try that!
  
• So with SHS, if I stand in water and have SHS in my feet, they turn into DHS so long as I'm in the water? That's a cool mechanic! I like it!
  
• The maximum possible alpha strike I can do without shutting down is 2 Gauss + 1 ER PPC for 55. 2 Gauss + 2 ER PPC is too risky. 1 Gauss + 2 ER PPC is too risky.
  
• Running 2 gauss + 1 ER PPC, I run the risk of being extremely fragile and I must carry an XL engine. I will be easy to take out if someone gets close to me. I need friends to escort me. (Teamwork!)
  
• With current heat values of ER PPCs (11), 3 of them is an instant shutdown. That's 30 damage and accomplishes the same goal of the penalty system, without the penalty system.
  
• The 2 ER PPC and 2 PPC exploit of the penalty system would also lead to an instant shutdown and possibly moderate to severe self-inflicted heat damage.
  
• The maximum number of LRMs I can fire at the same time are 5 LRM-20s. But, that is impossible to carry. Even with 2 LRM-15s I will run the risk of shutting down eventually as I will reach my threshold faster even with 2 times cooling than I would with MWO's current system.
  
• Lasers are a good idea. But I have to use them sparingly since their heat is high. If I space out my shots and really make them count, I will improve both my gameplay and my heat management.
  
• If I carry fewer weapons than I can fit, I'll be more heat efficient.
  
• It is very risky to fire 4 large lasers at the same time. If I do I'll have to wait several seconds before I can safely fire them again. I better chainfire them.
  
• If I fire 6 medium lasers at the same time I will be at 24 out of 30 heat. If I fire 7 medium lasers I will be at 28 out of 30 heat. This is risky, maybe it would be better to chainfire them.
  
• Balancing might actually lower the heat of medium lasers back to canonical values.
  
• With 2 AC/2s and 2 AC/5s I can fire non-stop for up to 7-ish seconds and be in the high 96 to 98% heat range at a world of 0 degrees celsius in MWO versus this in a higher heat environment.
  
• If I run a high risk build such as twin ER PPCs, I should fire them one at a time. Otherwise I will need an escort because it is too hot to fire them twice in 8 seconds. I might need an escort anyway. (Teamwork!)
  
• Carrying 2 LRM-15s and several medium pulse lasers for defense isn't enough. Maybe I should carry 2 SRM-4s as well. Can't carry 6s it's too hot.
  
• As a medium mech I may not have the speed of a light or the same damage output as a heavy or an assault, but I have the same heat capacity as a light, heavy, and an assault. I have a fair chance in a fight!
  
• As a medium mech I would have more endurance than a light, since a light can't have as much heat dissipation as me. I may not have the same cooling rate as a heavy or an assault but I have fewer weapons, so I can perform equally or even outperform them in endurance. (So I'm better cooling than a light since I can dedicate more weight to increase my heat dissipation, and more heat efficient than an heavy due to less weight dedicated to weapons. My only threat is an assault and two of us can easily take one assault down or if I pace my shots better than the assault does, I'll easily take it out).
  
• If I run a smaller engine, I can carry more heatsinks for faster cooling because I can't carry my weapons, my armor, and a big engine without sacrificing heatsinks.
  
• Carrying a smaller engine does not screw me out of heat capacity (fewer HSR issues, slower mechs, slower meta, more big stompy robot action!)
  
• I am rewarded with higher endurance for carrying smaller, weaker weapons.
  
• I am rewarded for carrying far weaker weapons than everyone else and maintaining a low DPS, low HPS with higher endurance. Since they can't fire their 20 to 55 damage builds too often, I can get in close and brawl.
  
• I will eventually overheat with 4 small lasers. Even though my dissipation is fast, my threshold is so low that I will reach it and overheat at some point.
  
• I carry larger, more powerful weapons at the risk of overheating very frequently. Possibly once every 4 to 6 seconds.
  
• The deciding factor of a brawl is who has the most endurance and better heat management -- this usually favors the weaker weapons.
  
• 20 ton mechs have an equal chance in terms of heat capacity to everyone else. They traded armor and firepower for a smaller size and superior speed. Though they have to worry about being easily knocked down, they should never have to worry about heat unless they hold down the trigger.
  
• A Jenner, Commando, or Spider with an ER PPC is a fool. 4 to 5 back to back shots on Alpine and overheat, even with superior cooldown. This versus never being able to reach the overheat due to having 20 more capacity just for having 10 DHS in the engine. (50 with MWO's system and 10 DHS, versus 30 with the proposed and correct system from the original rules and any number of heatsinks, even 22 DHS, will never change that 30 limit).
  
• A medium mech with small lasers and MGs has a very strong chance against an assault.
  
• Fighting in packs of 2 or more is greatly encouraged as when one overheats, the other can keep firing.
  
• A single stalker with 2 ER PPCs and 5 streaks has no chance by itself, it needs an escort or to pace itself.
  
• Enemies with high alpha weaponry might do severe damage, but then will be shut down too long to fight back.
  
• Decoy tactics, teamwork, coordination become encouraged without even so much as a cbill reward!
  
• Heat management consists of "Alpha strike only as a last resort as chances are I'll kill myself if I do it! Too hot? Hold your fire even though you are already chain-firing. Maybe you should carry fewer weapons. Or, have you considered using small lasers or machine guns instead as a way of continuing to fight when you are too hot?"
  
• As an assault mech with all my weapons, even with my reliance on ballistics if I fire them too often I will overheat. A lot. I need an escort of a smaller mech that has better endurance than myself. In exchange I can tank damage for that smaller mech. "Hey medium dude, could you watch my back? Keep me safe when I overheat and I'll keep you safe from weapons fire. Thanks man you're the greatest!" (Role warfare!)
  
• After knockdowns return: "Oh crap, I tripped! C'mon, c'mon, c'mon! He's shooting me! Get up! Get up! YES! In your face! Now to get back to my team before I get knocked over again."
  
• Player shifting from MWO's current system to this one. "OMFG I overheat like every 4 seconds! I can't do anything without overheating. Wait, maybe if I didn't fire it all at once..."
  
• PGI after a bit of stat reading with the changes: "You know, these mechs are surviving an awful long time. The players say this feels right, but matches are lasting longer than expected, many fights are not ending with one side being completely decimated but with time running out. Maybe we should increase the timer? Perhaps we might lower the armor values a bit. Nah, the players seem happy."

Sounds like a fun game... I'd play it.

Edited by Zerik, 14 August 2013 - 09:48 AM.

[Koniving]

I'll catch up with everything here soon. But in the mean time.

Also note: PPCs are NOT a brawling weapon, they are a sniping weapon that can be used in emergencies. Brawling weapons are heavy cannons, lasers and SRMs.
Support weapons are long range cannons (light ones and Gauss), LRMs, and PPCs.

But I have it! I know why they are afraid of heat neutrality. It has to do with their way of breaking it down. It is bad. But in my way the heat neutrality is a far different aspect than what they came up with. I suppose it depends on one's definition of it.

miSs, on 26 July 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Answer from Paul: There are no current plans to change the heat threshold towards TT values. Are we hard set against it? No, just at the moment there’s no need to do this.

Playing with a higher rate of cooling makes a lot more builds become heat neutral. A lot of heat neutral builds results in mid-range damage applied at a constant rate over time. This mechanism would be highly exploited by those with knowledge of building efficient heat neutral Mechs.

Answer from David: I would also like to mention that TT doesn’t really have a hard cap of 30. Yes, the TT heat scale goes from 0 to 30, but the big difference is how TT calculates heat. In TT, all heat generation and cooling is both instant and simultaneous. In TT, if you have 30 heat sinks, and fire two ER PPCs (which generate 15 heat each in TT), not only will you still be at 0 heat, but you’ll never have actually been at 30 heat (which would have forced an automatic shutdown). This is what we’re trying to simulate when heat sink increase the heat scale capacity.

Koniving, on 15 August 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

Got it! I finally got it!
I believe I finally done it. I figured out how PGI translated tabletop and why they are afraid of what they call "heat neutral."

PGI's breakdown of Tabletop.
3 PPC Awesome 8Q. 30 SHS. 8Q alpha strikes 3 PPCs. Generates 30 heat over 10 seconds. Sinks over 10 seconds.

Spoiler

Breakdown:
0. Fires 3 PPCs.
1. 3 heat (1 per PPC). Sinks 3. 0.
2. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0.
3. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0.
4. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0.
5. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0.
6. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0.
7. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0.
8. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0.
9. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0.
10. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0.

Fires 3 PPCs in an Alpha Strike with 30 pinpoint and is heat neutral. Never raised heat. Translation seems solid, but you can't pinpoint and therefore you can't alpha. Each weapon takes a separate roll despite being of the same type. Not perfect.

Problem is that assumes all mechs alpha strike. In tabletop you can't, as you cannot get pinpoint damage period. All weapons are fired one at a time. Furthermore it just doesn't work in a single shot basis. It exceeds the turn's timetable.
Why it doesn't really work:
3 PPC Awesome 8Q. 30 SHS. 8Q fires 3 PPCs at 1 second intervals. Generates 30 heat over 10 seconds. Sinks over 10 seconds.

Spoiler

0. Fires 1 PPC.
1. 1 heat (1 per PPC). Sinks 3. 0. Fires 2nd PPC.
2. 2 heat. Sinks 3. 0. Fires 3rd PPC.
3. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0.
4. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0.
5. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0.
6. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0.
7. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0.
8. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0.
9. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0.
10. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0. (First PPC generates final heat.)
11. 2 heat. Sinks 3. 0. (Second PPC generates final heat.)
12 1 heat. Sinks 3. 0. (Third PPC generates final heat.)

Fires 3 PPCs back to back and is heat neutral. Never raised heat. Took 12 seconds to stop bleed-over from just 3 shots fired in the first 10 seconds. The bleed over would affect outcome in next turn but that does not happen in tabletop. Shots do hit 3 separate targets, though. Definitely imperfect translation.

Mine. Assuming alpha strike first.
3 PPC Awesome 8Q. 30 SHS. 8Q alpha strikes 3 PPCs. Generates 30 heat over 10 seconds. Sinks over 10 seconds.

Spoiler

Breakdown:
0. Fires 3 PPCs in alpha strike. 30 heat. Shuts down.
1. 30 heat. Sinks 3. 27. Starts up.
2. 27 heat. Sinks 3. 24.
3. 24 heat. Sinks 3. 21.
4. 21 heat. Sinks 3. 18.
5. 18 heat. Sinks 3. 15.
6. 15 heat. Sinks 3. 12.
7. 12 heat. Sinks 3. 9.
8. 9 heat. Sinks 3. 6.
9. 6 heat. Sinks 3. 3.
10. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0 heat.

Fires 3 PPCs in an Alpha Strike, pinpoint 30 damage and is heat neutral at the end, but heat still mattered a lot as he shut down anyway. Raised full heat then sank it. Perfect translation for real time, but you can't alpha strike in tabletop; you can only queue all your weapons to fire one at a time. Can my breakdown hold up?


3 PPC Awesome 8Q. 30 SHS. 8Q fires 3 PPCs slowly. Generates 30 heat over 10 seconds. Sinks over 10 seconds.

Spoiler

Breakdown:
0. Fires 1 PPC. 10 heat.
1. 10 heat. Sinks 3. 7.
2. 7 heat. Sinks 3. 4.
3. 4 heat. Sinks 3. 1. Fires 1 PPC. 11.
4. 11 heat. Sinks 3. 8.
5. 8 heat. Sinks 3. 5.
6. 5 heat. Sinks 3. 2. Fires 1 PPC. 12.
7. 12 heat. Sinks 3. 9.
8. 9 heat. Sinks 3. 6.
9. 6 heat. Sinks 3. 3.
10. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0 heat.

Fires 3 PPCs at random intervals, no pinpoint and is heat neutral at the end, but heat still mattered. Raised heat then sank it. Perfect translation.

3 PPC Awesome 8Q. 30 SHS. 8Q fires 3 PPCs rapidly. Generates 30 heat over 10 seconds. Sinks over 10 seconds.

Spoiler

Breakdown:
0. Fires 1 PPC. 10 heat.
1. 10 heat. Sinks 3. 7. Fires 1 PPC. 17.
2. 17 heat. Sinks 3. 14. Fires 1 PPC. 24.
3. 24 heat. Sinks 3. 21.
4. 21 heat. Sinks 3. 18.
5. 18 heat. Sinks 3. 15.
6. 15 heat. Sinks 3. 12. Fires 1 PPC. 12.
7. 12 heat. Sinks 3. 9.
8. 9 heat. Sinks 3. 6.
9. 6 heat. Sinks 3. 3.
10. 3 heat. Sinks 3. 0 heat.

Fires 3 PPCs at rapid intervals. No pinpoint alpha damage and is heat neutral at the end, but heat still mattered. Heat raised a lot but sank in time frame. Perfect translation.

Now my translation into MWO with a 4 second firing rate.
3 PPC Awesome 8Q. 30 SHS. 8Q fires 3 PPCs rapidly. Generates 30 heat over 10 seconds. Sinks over 10 seconds.

Spoiler

Breakdown:
0. Fires 1 PPC. 10 heat.
1. 10 heat. Sinks 3. 7. Fires 1 PPC. 17.
2. 17 heat. Sinks 3. 14. Fires 1 PPC. 24.
3. 24 heat. Sinks 3. 21.
4. 21 heat. Sinks 3. 18. 1st PPC recharges. Fires 1 PPC. 28.
5. 28 heat. Sinks 3. 25. Too risky to shoot. 2nd PPC recharges.
6. 25 heat. Sinks 3. 22. Too risky. 3rd PPC recharges.
7. 22 heat. Sinks 3. 19. Risky.
8. 19 heat. Sinks 3. 16. Fires 1 PPC. 26. (1st PPC recharges.)
9. 26 heat. Sinks 3. 23.
10. 23 heat. Sinks 3. 20 heat. Fires 1 PPC. 30. Shuts down.

Fires 5 PPCs at rapid intervals, no pinpoint damage and is not heat neutral at the end, yet heat still mattered with full cooling equal to 15 DHS. Perfect translation as that's exactly what would happen in MWO (not factoring latency or lag).

There, Paul and David. It isn't an issue at all if translated more appropriately, even though the heat neutral canon mechs can still be achieved if they Hold Their Fire for 10 seconds or significantly reduce their firepower. Which is, also, canon. We aren't truly afraid of that being an advantage, are we? It comes with an obvious sacrifice. This system also removes the "alpha strike warrior" issue from the equation without convoluted systems.

Edited by Koniving, 15 August 2013 - 07:36 AM.

[Koniving]

Sephlock, on 13 August 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

It seems like high heat just leads to cowering behind cover (while you cool down), which in turn leads to sniping (because if two sides are both cowering, guess who wins? The one that can hit the other from further away, forcing them to close the distance and get sniped as they do so)!

My previous post addressed this but since I went and dug it up.. In a brawl the guy with the PPC loses.

He fired 2 PPCs and it was just too hot to do anything but shoot his MGs.

Here, the only reason this Warhammer can fire so many PPCs is that the heat was not instant, instead it was gradually risen over time (PGI's belief that tabletop you raise 1 point of heat per second per PPC over 10 seconds which in practice, created easy to make heat neutral mechs with DHS, thus their fear of it). Watch the heat in the bottom right.

Also notice the impacts of the autocannon are throwing the PPC user's aim off? This combined with the much lower heat of the Atlas's weapons give him brawling superiority.

PPCs are not brawling weapons, and if the "impulse" of impacts affected weapons as PGI originally intended, you wouldn't be able to use them as brawling weapons even now as anyone with an autocannon would ruin your day.

PGI came close with this one...

But people complained. And it did nothing against my pinpoint. It only affected my ability to see.

Edited by Koniving, 15 August 2013 - 11:38 AM.

[DegeneratePervert]

Xanquil, on 13 August 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Personally I would love for them to temporarily disable group fire. until they figure out how to make multiple weapons fired at the same time not always hit the same place. As for the fear of lights becoming OP, rapid fire weapons and SSRMs are designed to deal with them. After all you do not use a hammer to kill a fly. You can but it isn't the best weapon to do so. (oh look a reason for mixed loadouts :} )

My mouse has 16 buttons. Try again.

[General Taskeen]

Koniving, on 15 August 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

He fired 2 PPCs and it was just too hot to do anything but shoot his MGs.

I wanna play THAT game