301 replies to this topic

[Insidious Johnson]

+1 OP. Would be +2 if you spent some time on HSR and NDB fails as not being a proper form of balance. Hits registering anything at any time is a dice roll at best, for no apparent reason.

[Khobai]

Quote

In prior mechwarrior games, heat neutral laser builds were an issue.

Sure in MW3 lasers were overpowered as hell, especially er large lasers. MW4 solved that problem by making lasers do hardly any damage. In MW4 it was PPCs and Gauss that pretty much dominated. Which is more similar to MWO's problem.

[Koniving]

Khobai, on 03 August 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

Sure in MW3 lasers were overpowered as hell, especially er large lasers. MW4 solved that problem by making lasers do hardly any damage. In MW4 it was PPCs and Gauss that pretty much dominated. Which is more similar to MWO's problem.

To further improve on this point, in MW3, lasers fired once every 2 seconds or less, and did instant pinpoint damage like autocannons and PPCs do now. "Pew, 5 damage."

Here, it's "Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, 5 damage but it's all spread out."

[General Taskeen]

Koniving, on 04 August 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

To further improve on this point, in MW3, lasers fired once every 2 seconds or less, and did instant pinpoint damage like autocannons and PPCs do now. "Pew, 5 damage."

Here, it's "Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, 5 damage but it's all spread out."

Another addition to this. Mw 3/4 also had customization and/or boating balance issues like MWO. In a restricted setting with MW3 stats, Mechs were 'reasonably' balanced against each other or had better concepts like a powerful MG on its own right, competitive NARC, etc, and of course heat sinks that did not raise heat caps and simply dissipated heat.

IF MWO takes what simply worked outside the 'boating balance issues' for a certain weapon or equipment or game modes from each game (MW3/4/LL, maybe MW2, haven't played that though), it can reach a pinnacle achievement for a great Mech Warrior title.

Edited by General Taskeen, 04 August 2013 - 09:13 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Quote

[color=#959595]MWO is based off of a misinterpretation of a system that's considerably well balanced, when you consider everyone can only fire once per 10 seconds. Those heat neutral PPC builds? Don't exist when you cut that time down to 4 seconds or real time. Further, the reason mechs explode in the real time games versus the tabletop, is TT did allow abuse of the system so long as you don't have ammo in your mech by going beyond the 30 capacity -- but this came with consequences. In my first post, in response to someone about the invincible infinite alpha-strike Awesome, I demonstrated how it can't alpha, period, and it chainfires. Furthermore, I also demonstrated that in the identical system of TT on MWO, 3 ER PPCs at once is instant death -- since detonation is the only necessary repercussion, that's how it works. [/color]

10 Seconds is the total time TT used for both sides to complete movement/Weapon fire/ Physical attacks/Venting &Recycle for opposite sides. So cut that 10 seconds in half and you have something that would have worked better in MWO than that Out dated discarded Solaris7 dueling rules.

Move/fire
+
Recharge/Vent
=
5 seconds (or so)
You would still have some heat build up but a Awesome should be able to fire a 3:2 cycle and be heat neutral.

Rinse/Wash/Repeat

A Awesome could actually live up to its name if this were the case.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 August 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 03 August 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

Sure in MW3 lasers were overpowered as hell, especially er large lasers. MW4 solved that problem by making lasers do hardly any damage. In MW4 it was PPCs and Gauss that pretty much dominated. Which is more similar to MWO's problem.

And on TT. Play a game where the GM allows Mods see what the players bring Khobai
My Stone Rhino had 2 ERPPC and 3 Gauss (Scary TT build).

[Koniving]

Don't forget to triple the armor after that.

I made this as a private debate on balance, but it's perfect. It begins with the 9 ML hunch, with tabletop values in real time versus the 9 ML hunch with MWO values (no heat penalties). Then it goes on to break down a 3 PPC Awesome. All calculations are assuming 0 degrees celsius, which is 2 degrees warmer than Alpine.

On the 9 ML 4P I'll give you a comparison with 2.0 cooling, 3 heat per laser, 30 capacity versus MWO's system on two Hunchback 4Ps using 14 DHS with both in real time.

The 9 ML 4P would never have been much of an issue, if capacity stayed at 30 and shutdown. Tabletop heat, tabletop cooling at a per second rate (0.2 per second per heatsink). 9 ML at 3 heat = 27. With 14 DHS (my average number in DHS for a 4P) at a cooling rate of 2.8 per second (2.0 per 10 seconds or 0.2 per second per heatsink) it'd cool to 1.8 excess heat in 9 seconds, and -1 heat in 10. Thus somewhere between 9 and 10 it'd be zero. That's 9 seconds before it's safe to fire again without a shutdown.

MWO's system with 14 DHS.. Assuming 250 engine 10 engine DHS (20) + 4 chassis DHS (5.6). Capacity 30 base + 20 + 5.6 = 55.6
and 2.56 dissipation.
MWO's 4 heat per ML. 55.6 minus 36 heat = 19.6 capacity remaining. Time to reach second alpha strike at 2.56 cooling per second: 7 seconds to reach 37.52 free capacity for a second alpha strike.

• In tabletop, it'd be 9 seconds of waiting before it could safely be done. More accurately about 8 and a half before you could alpha strike them again safely.
  
• In MWO's current system without the penalty {Scrap} and with MORE HEAT PER LASER WEEE!!! It'd be 7 seconds, or more accurately approximately 6 and a half before you could alpha strike them again.
  
• Read that again. Tabletop / MW3's faster cooling + less heat per laser + 9 ML = 9 to 10 seconds between safe alpha strikes without shutting down. MWO, current system without ghost heat, 9 ML at 4 heat each, with SLOWER cooling, gives us 7 seconds of wait time before we can do a second alpha strike.
  
• Please read that one more time. With 30 threshold, lower heat for medium lasers and faster cooling means waiting longer to alpha strike. MWO's system with more heat, less cooling, says you can alpha strike faster. Why? Rising threshold. This is before skills, which confound the problem further!

---------



I could go through this with PPCs, with virtually anything else, and even use MWO heat generation and firing rates for all weapons. Even with higher dissipation the tabletop system (it's only 0.06 cooling per second increase for any DHS above 10 compared to the current, but a HUGE nerf on maximum heat capacities) requires people to shoot slower, space out their shots, can't alpha strike most of the common builds. Everything the penalty system is trying to accomplish, but without it. We might not even need to have double armor anymore!

It was mentioned that we need to avoid heat neutral builds. Someone running 20 DHS at 0.2 cooling per second could use 2 PPCs at the 8 heat per PPC is supposedly "heat neutral". So? Fix the heat. It's supposed to be 10.

But even at 8 heat per PPC, 20 DHS will not make them heat neutral in a 4 second firing span, they will be heat neutral if they fire 2 PPCs once in 8 seconds. How many PPC users hold their trigger finger for 8 seconds? None. They would have to drop to 1 PPC to be truly heat neutral. How many heavy or assault mechs are effective with only 1 PPC and max speed? Virtually None. Not seeing an issue there.

But what about lasers! OMG they'll be so OP! ....Seriously? At MWO's 4 heat per ML, 4 medium lasers can be heat neutral with 20 DHS in 8 seconds. Oh, wow. Really now? Firing 4 ML once per 8 seconds. You're afraid? Oh no the big bad stalker is gonna kill me firing his 4 medium lasers once every 8 seconds! I'm terrified! Sure the same thing can be done on a faster mech.


Yet here's the kicker, this is assuming 0 degrees celsius, which Alpine is the closest map to that level at -2 degrees celsius. You still wouldn't have heat neutrality in 8 seconds with either of those builds on forest colony snow.

Heat neutrality is defined as the huge sacrifice of fire power in exchange for being able to function with higher endurance or worrying about shutting down. It is also defined as being able to return to 0 heat before you can fire again, or as the ability to hold your fire until you reach zero heat (which means all builds are heat neutral if you hold your fire long enough). How many mechs can do that at their actual firing rate in MWO with 30 capacity and 0.2 per second per heatsink cooling? Even the heat neutral builds of tabletop would not be heat neutral with the same system in MWO. Why? We fire faster. A lot faster than once per 10 seconds.

-------------------------------
In David's example of heat neutrality he used an Awesome 8Q with 3 PPCs at 10 heat each, and 30 SHS.
In real time 8Q fires 3 PPCs, shuts down. Starts back up at zero heat in the end of 10 seconds.
Or he fires one at a time or two then one. Pinpoint is defined as 2 or more fired at the same time to hit the same spot.

Let's break that down in every variation we can.

First tabletop direct translations with 1 at a time, 2 then 1, and then all 3 at once.

Spoiler

If he fires 2, then 1.

Spoiler

Capacity: 30, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 2 PPCs, 20 heat.
At 1 seconds, 17 heat. Fires 1 PPC. + 10 heat = 27 heat. Fired all weapons for turn.
At 2 seconds, 24 heat.
At 3 seconds, 21 heat.
At 4 seconds, 18 heat.
At 5 seconds, 15 heat.
At 6 seconds, 12 heat.
At 7 seconds, 9 heat.
At 8 seconds, 6 heat.
At 9 seconds, 3 heat.
At 10 seconds, 0 heat.

Heat neutral, did 30 damage in 10 seconds. 1 instance of pinpoint damage for 20 damage.

If he fires 1 at a time.

Spoiler

Capacity: 30, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 1 PPCs, 10 heat.
At 1 seconds, 7 heat. Fires 1 PPC. + 10 heat = 17 heat.
At 2 seconds, 14 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat = 24 heat. Fired all weapons for turn.
At 3 seconds, 21 heat.
At 4 seconds, 18 heat.
At 5 seconds, 15 heat.
At 6 seconds, 12 heat.
At 7 seconds, 9 heat.
At 8 seconds, 6 heat.
At 9 seconds, 3 heat.
At 10 seconds, 0 heat.

Heat neutral, did 30 damage in 10 seconds. No pinpoint damage.

If the same build fired 3 at once, he'd shut down and be at 0 heat at the end of 10 seconds.

Now tabletop capacity and cooling, but with MWO's firing rate, fired as fast as possible to avoid shutdown.

Spoiler

Capacity: 30, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 2 PPCs, 20 heat.
At 1 seconds, 17 heat.
At 2 seconds, 14 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat. 24 heat.
At 3 seconds, 21 heat.
At 4 seconds, 18 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat = 28 heat.
At 5 seconds, 25 heat.
At 6 seconds, 22 heat.
At 7 seconds, 19 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat = 29 heat.
At 8 seconds, 26 heat.
At 9 seconds, 23 heat.
At 10 seconds, 20 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat = 30 heat = shutdown.

Player has shut down at exactly 30 heat and managed 6 PPCs for 60 damage in 10 seconds. Only 2 were pinpoint on the same spot for 20 damage.

Tabletop, MWO's firing rate + MWO's heat.

Spoiler

Capacity: 30, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat.
At 1 seconds, 21 heat.
At 2 seconds, 19 heat.
At 3 seconds, 16 heat.
At 4 seconds, 13 heat. Fires 2 PPCs + 16 heat = 29 heat. (Heat level critical!)
At 5 seconds, 26 heat.
At 6 seconds, 23 heat.
At 7 seconds, 20 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 8 heat = 28 heat.
At 8 seconds, 25 heat.
At 9 seconds, 22 heat.
At 10 seconds, 19 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 8 heat = 29 heat.

Player is at 29 heat, did not shut down, and managed 7 PPCs for 70 damage in 10 seconds. 3 were pinpoint (30 damage), and then 2 more were pinpoint (20 damage).

Versus MWO's heat capacity system, with 10 heat per PPC, and then with 8 heat per PPC.

Spoiler

MWO's system. 30 SHS, 3 cooling per second. Base capacity 30 + 30 heatsinks = 60 capacity.
Using tabletop's 10 heat per PPC.
Awesome 8Q fires 3 at a time, three times in 10 seconds (at 4 second firing rate),

Spoiler

Capacity: 60, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat.
At 1 seconds, 27 heat.
At 2 seconds, 24 heat.
At 3 seconds, 21 heat.
At 4 seconds, 18 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 38.
At 5 seconds, 35 heat.
At 6 seconds, 32 heat.
At 7 seconds, 29 heat.
At 8 seconds, 26 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 56.
At 9 seconds, 53 heat.
At 10 seconds, 50 heat.

50 excess heat. Dealt 90 damage. That's with 10 heat per PPC in MWO's system with the same build. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage or 30 damage to each of 3 targets.

MWO's current unchanged system without heat penalties. 30 SHS, 3 cooling per second. Base capacity 30 + 30 heatsinks = 60 capacity.
Using MWO's current 8 heat per PPC.
Awesome 8Q fires 3 at a time, three times in 10 seconds (at 4 second firing rate),

Spoiler

Capacity: 60, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat.
At 1 seconds, 21 heat.
At 2 seconds, 18 heat.
At 3 seconds, 15 heat.
At 4 seconds, 12 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat = 36.
At 5 seconds, 33 heat.
At 6 seconds, 30 heat.
At 7 seconds, 27 heat.
At 8 seconds, 24 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat = 48.
At 9 seconds, 45 heat.
At 10 seconds, 42 heat.

42 excess heat. Dealt 90 damage. That's with MWO's heat per PPC in MWO's system with the same build. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage or 30 damage to each of 3 targets

Except for MWO's capacity system, all of the above same can be done with 15 DHS.

My estimation is that the damage dealt would weaken slightly with MWO's DHS compared to MWO's SHS, but it'd still be superior to the systems listed before it.

This is MWO's system with DHS, once with MWO PPC heat (8) and tabletop PPC heat (10).

Spoiler

Let's find out.
MWO's system, MWO PPC heat.
15 DHS, 10 engine (2.0) + 5 chassis (1.4).
Capacity = base capacity 30 + 20 engine + 7 chassis = 57
Dissipation = 27 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.7 per second.
Fires 3 at a time, 3 times.

Spoiler

Capacity: 57.
Dissipation: 2.7 per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat.
At 1 seconds, 21.3 heat.
At 2 seconds, 18.6 heat.
At 3 seconds, 15.9 heat.
At 4 seconds, 13.2 heat. Fires 3 PPCs + 24 heat = 37.2 heat.
At 5 seconds, 34.5 heat.
At 6 seconds, 31.8 heat.
At 7 seconds, 29.1 heat.
At 8 seconds, 26.4 heat. Fires 3 PPCs + 24 heat = 50.4 heat.
At 9 seconds, 47.7 heat.
At 10 seconds, 45 heat.

Player is at 45 heat and managed 9 PPCs for 90 damage in 10 seconds. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage to each of 3 targets.

MWO's system. Tabletop PPC heat.
15 DHS, 10 engine (2.0) + 5 chassis (1.4).
Capacity = base capacity 30 + 20 engine + 7 chassis = 57
Dissipation = 27 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.7 per second.
Awesome 8Q fires 3 at a time, three times in 10 seconds (at 4 second firing rate), with Tabletop's 10 heat.

Spoiler

Capacity: 57,
Dissipation: 2.7 per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat.
At 1 seconds, 27.3 heat.
At 2 seconds, 24.6 heat.
At 3 seconds, 21.9 heat.
At 4 seconds, 19.2 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 49.2.
At 5 seconds, 46.5 heat.
At 6 seconds, 43.8 heat.
At 7 seconds, 41.1 heat.
At 8 seconds, 38.4 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 68.4 Shutdown..

Shuts down at 68.4 in 8 seconds, possibly dies as a result.. Dealt 90 damage. That's with 10 heat per PPC in MWO's system with the same build. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage or 30 damage to each of 3 targets

We know PGI isn't interested in changing the system. That would make it too close to a thinking person's shooter and less appetizing for the casual Hawken player.

So how it would be if all mechs had 1.4 capacity rise, 1.4 cooling across the board for DHS as a compromise, so that mediums and lights don't get screwed with MWO's system?

Spoiler

Let's find out.
8 heat per PPC. 1.4 for all DHS.

Spoiler

MWO's system, MWO PPC heat.
15 DHS, 1.4 each = 21
Capacity = base capacity 30 + 21 = 51
Dissipation = 21 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.1 per second.
Fires 3 at a time, 3 times.

Spoiler

Capacity: 51.
Dissipation: 2.1 per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat.
At 1 seconds, 21.9 heat.
At 2 seconds, 19.8 heat.
At 3 seconds, 17.7 heat.
At 4 seconds, 15.6 heat. Fires 3 PPCs + 24 heat = 39.6 heat.
At 5 seconds, 37.5 heat.
At 6 seconds, 35.4 heat.
At 7 seconds, 33.3 heat.
At 8 seconds, 31.2 heat. Fires 3 PPCs + 24 heat = 55.2 heat.

Player is at 55.2 heat and shutdown in 8 seconds, managed 9 PPCs for 90 damage in 10 seconds. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage to each of 3 targets.

MWO's system. Tabletop PPC heat.
15 DHS, All 1.4 = 21.
Capacity = base capacity 30 + 21 = 51
Dissipation = 21 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.1 per second.
Awesome 8Q fires 3 at a time, two times in 4 seconds (at 4 second firing rate), with Tabletop's 10 heat.

Spoiler

Capacity: 51,
Dissipation: 2.1 per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat.
At 1 seconds, 27.9 heat.
At 2 seconds, 25.8 heat.
At 3 seconds, 23.7 heat.
At 4 seconds, 21.6 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 51.6. Shutdown.

Shuts down at 51.6 in 4 seconds.. It could easily start right back up. Fired 6 PPCs and dealt 60 damage. That's with 10 heat per PPC in MWO's system with the same build. 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage or 30 damage to each of 2 targets

Compare what I would like (30 capacity, 45 self destruct, 2.0 cooling per 10 seconds per DHS which is 0.2 cooling per second per DHS, with what we have now (variable capacity, 2.0 cooling per engine heatsink, 2.0 capacity increase per engine heatsink, 1.4 cooling per chassis heatsink, 1.4 capacity increase per chassis heatsink). Remember I didn't even take pilot unlocks into account, or you'd spam even more with MWO's system.

We wouldn't even need such hot maps with an appropriate system, but that's just me. But I digress, PGI seems to believe more alpha strikes is considered far more balanced, than wimpy heat neutrality builds. That whole thing above me is a tabletop heat neutral build. With the ability to fire PPCs at 4 second intervals, even with avoiding alpha strikes and spacing them out that heat neutrality is impossible.

Where's the problem, PGI?

Edit: (Fixed poor wording about the listed heat neutral build.)
Edit 2: Stare Dad meme. PGI's solution!
Edit 3: Stare Dad Meme 2: PGI's solution to the solution's problems!
Edit 4: Realized I did regular DHS as a demonstration, but said it was for 1.4, 1.4 the whole way through with no engine b.s. Separated that. Found mistake in some math, fixed. All math should now be accurate, please say something if the actual math given has a mistake.


And so maps must constantly be hotter than the previous one to try and contain the problem.

Edit3: In the first example as I re-read it, it is very important to note 3 heat per ML + "better" cooling and 30 threshold = 9 seconds before safe to fire. In MWO, 4 heat per ML + "worse cooling" + super threshold of MWO = only wait 7 seconds before firing again.

Edited by Koniving, 17 November 2013 - 07:33 AM.

[YueFei]

Let's have PGI hire Koniving, damn it.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

The fundamental issues here are primarily two-fold, namely pinpoint damage alpha strikes and lack of heat penalties.

I see a potential solution by tying the two things together.

What I mean is, add a series of increasing penalties to the heat scale. Take the 3 PPC AWS-8Q with 30 SHS (credit to Koniving for his numbers).

If you fire your three PPCs and your heat spikes to 24/60 (40% of capacity), suddenly you take a big hit to your max speed, you can't turn, torso twist, or move your arms nearly as fast, and your shots start to go wide. If you fire again as soon as you can, you jump to 36/60 heat (60% capacity). You were at 12/60 heat when you fired a second time (20% of capacity), which means your accuracy was still suffering from being hot, so your shots weren't pinpoint.

Now you're starting to get really sluggish (60% is pretty hot). By the time your PPCs are ready again you're at 24/60 (or 40% of capacity), which means you're really losing out on both maneuverability and accuracy, and after you fire your heat spikes to 48/60 (80% of capacity). You're now nearly crippled by your heat load and your shots will start missing whole mechs outright rather than just deviating to nearby locations on the target.

By the time your PPCs are charged again you're down to 36/60 heat (60% again), which is still punishing to your accuracy.

All this with the current rules for heat dissipation and capacity (though ignoring the heat tax for firing more than 2 PPCs at the same time).

If heat capacity were counted at +1/HS, with SHS and DHS both adding just +1, and if heat dissipation were at +1 for SHS and +2 for DHS (per 10s, of course), then you'd still have the 60 capacity on a SHS AWS-8Q, but a 15 DHS build would only have 45 capacity for the same dissipation rate (in other words, trading critical space and heat capacity for tonnage).

This arrangement would make SHS far better for handling high-heat-load weapons, as heat capacity means that it takes more absolute heat to get to a higher % on your heat scale, thus keeping the penalties for running hot lower in the initial salvos (very important for accuracy). 12/60 is a much smaller % than 12/45 (20% v. 27%), which would make for a very real loss of both maneuverability and accuracy for running DHS instead of SHS, even with the higher individual dissipation rate.

DHS would then have more of a place in sustained combat with lower absolute heat loads, since you can get more raw dissipation for less tonnage, while SHS would be superior for high-heat weapon groups (as the increased capacity would reduce the impact of your heat generation on performance).

[Koniving]

Levi's suggestion is a reasonable compromise, one I once pushed for when I originally believed that 90 to 110 capacity was possible by trying to assess heat capacity through heat generation on Forest Colony (it's a lot closer to accurate with that method on Alpine).

This also makes some sense as a way of balancing things, as single heatsinks are still one ton but likely made of a better material to absorb heat. It just can't dissipate it away from the mech as fast. Where double heatsinks might be made of a different, easier to destroy material (hence 3 slots), but while not as capable of absorbing heat away from the weapons, it is made to be able to vent the heat much more quickly.

If we're going this route, though, being able to do capacities of 60 would still mean pilot efficiencies would bring us up to 12 higher than 60 (20% of 60 is 12) for a total of 72 capacity.

Perhaps the base capacity could be lowered to 20. Then with 30 SHS you'd have 50, and 15 DHS you'd have 35, meaning 10 would give you our goal of 30.

It's a compromise in case if they hardcoded the rise in threshold and can't just throw a zero in there. I'd still prefer a direct 30 or 40 limit and cut it off there, but Levi's idea would be an acceptable compromise.

[The Justicar]

Forgive me, I'm 4 days new. Is the TL;DR basically remove or severely nerf heat capacities from heat sinks and institute TT heat values?

Edited by The Justicar, 09 August 2013 - 01:44 PM.

[Umbra8]

I would love to see a test build where shs and dhs both only raised heat capacity by 0.5 each with perhaps a 30 point base, so if you wanted high heat capacity you would actually have a reason to choose shs over dhs, but would have slightly weaker heat dissipation (offset by higher tonnage values invested in heat sinks). Dhs would still offer higher dissipation but the lower heat ceiling would limit the number of alphas you could perform before shutdown. Shs would offer more alphas but you'd limit your weapons loadout due to the tonnage required for extra shs and be running a less heat-neutral mech. With this system I would also remove the 10 heat sink minimum with a commensurate .5 drop in heat ceiling and lost dissipation per missing heat sink so lighter mechs could run small engines with a low-heat build.

As for heat-neutral mechs, I will never find them as dangerous as mechs that run hot unless the heat ceiling is reduced, shortening the effective window where they will out DPS a heat-neutral mech.

Edited by Umbra8, 09 August 2013 - 05:42 PM.

[FatBabyThompkins]

Umbra8, on 09 August 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

...

You wouldn't happen to be Umbra from SSA Tribes 1, would you?

[Umbra8]

FatBabyThompkins, on 09 August 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

You wouldn't happen to be Umbra from SSA Tribes 1, would you?

No. Would I want to be?

[Koniving]

The Justicar, on 09 August 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Forgive me, I'm 4 days new. Is the TL;DR basically remove or severely nerf heat capacities from heat sinks and institute TT heat values?

Well, essentially yes.

Spoiler

Maybe not tabletop heat values, but the heat system and how it works while keeping the overload (you go boom) mechanic to prevent abuse. Alternatively, you could remove that and 'force' shutdown to keep the mech inactive until below threshold (capacity). I don't care which way it works.

I'll explain it with minimal to no math. There's a TL;DR of this TL;DR below the line just in case.

MWO is the only Mechwarrior, Battletech, or really any game in the world that increases how much you can fire at the same time by adding more heatsinks. Their goal was to allow you to do the "heat more than 30 without exploding" tidbit but then they ran into so many problems that keeps getting worse. Just follow the "alternatively" route up above and problem solved, without more problems.

Every other mechwarrior or battletech game uses heatsinks to limit how 'often' you can shoot them, not determine how many you can spam at the same time. In all other mechwarrior and battletech games, tabletop or otherwise, the limit is set and if you go above it you shut down until you cool off. Many "heat neutral" builds in tabletop would actually shutdown in real time, start back up and then cool off to 0 at the end of 10 seconds.

The capacity is the limit until shutdown. Let's use a Hunchback with 3 AC/2s. Don't worry I won't spoil you with the math.

In MWO the current system allows you to fire all 3 at the same time, so every trigger pull is 6 damage at exactly where you aim it. You shut down in 15 seconds with a capacity of only 54.2 (13 DHS), cooling at 2.42/second and no unlocks, and have done 180 damage.

In the system that PGI said they based it on but clearly haven't, you'd shutdown in approximately 8 to 9 seconds doing the same thing. That's because even with slightly faster (proper) cooling, you only have to reach 30 Capacity, with a cooling of 2.6/second and deal maybe 102.

Comparison: Same weapons and build. No unlocks.
MWO heat system: 54.2 capacity; 2.42/second cooling; 180 damage in 15 seconds to shutdown.
TT heat system in real time: 30 capacity; 2.6/second cooling; 102 damage in 8.5 seconds to shutdown.

With any weapons at all, you will always shutdown and be forced to stop firing sooner with the TT heat system.
The designer's big fear is heat neutral builds.

A heat neutral build is something like 4 medium lasers, which would generate 16 heat. (With the build from the example above: MWO system: 29.52% of max heat. TT system: 53.33% of max heat.) and be cold again within 10 seconds or less.

Any heat neutral mech sacrifices any or all of the following: Damage potential, weapons, armor, mobility, firing rate, accuracy, common sense.

--------------

TL; DR: A simple way of saying this is a metaphor. The game of Mechwarrior is a race.

You have two types of competitors. There is the sprinter, who makes an insane mad dash, rests, dashes, rests. Then there is the endurance runner who jogs at a steady pace.

A sprinter is someone who uses as much firepower as possible in a single shot to kill the enemy. He can't keep that up. He gets tired on the first or second shot and could be killed when unable to fight. (Like fighting Mike Tyson. He'll kill you at the start, but if you somehow survive that, he can't last and he becomes very weak. Easily exhausted).

The goal of being heat neutral or as close to it as possible is to become an endurance runner in a race where the goal is to kill the other person. You are weaker, you take a lot longer to kill something, but while your opponent puts everything into one or two shots, you can run circles around your opponent while he's tired and do the deed.

The game's current heat system rewards Sprinters. Fast, instant kills which detract away from the fun of the game. It gives them jetpacks and skateboards because the designers are afraid that endurance runners would always win the race.

This is because early on the designers decided that the Endurance Runner would be overpowered, because despite barely having any weapons or damage, his ability to keep running around while the Sprinter keeps shutting down must be some sort of advantage (damn straight it's the only chance the Endurance Runner has because if he stops he dies!).

TL;DR and STL; DR

It's the Hare (instant kills, high damage alpha strikes, boating, assault mechs and heavies) versus the Turtle (damage over time, weaker weapons, mixed loadouts, medium and light mechs) in a race. Problem is the game rewards the Hare and punishes the Turtle.

We're saying cut the Hare's rocket pack off of his back (lower his capacity), he's already fast enough to win the race without the jetpack and skateboard if he doesn't screw around and actually relies on his skill. Add slightly more water (slightly faster cooling) on the course for the Hare to cool off to compensate for him actually having to use his legs, and give the turtles a chance (Doing this would allow turtles to actually have a chance to catch up or even win while the Hare is taking a break to cool off).

Edited by Koniving, 09 August 2013 - 07:35 PM.

[Deathlike]

Koniving... I like your analogy, except it didn't come with a picture or a youtube clip. FIX IT NAO!

[Koniving]

Soon™.

[Angel of Annihilation]

You guys are right on the money. Everything I have looked at or throught about screams to me that a direct translation of TT rules in regards to weapons, damage, heat and heat sinks, is the ultimate solution. I mean that system worked in TT for 23 years so I don't understand why they have to reinvent the wheel for MWO. Sure a few tweeks here or there but not a complete overhaul.

I have already posted numerous times that a ER PPC can only fire once ever 4 seconds whether it is heat neutral or not. This figure doesn't change so a ER PPC can only do a maximum of 2.5 DPS. That issue isn't an issue. What is an issue is being able to fire 4-6 of these at once and that is where heat balancing comes in.

Here is a prime example of table top using a waste heat scale of 30. If I mount 15 DHS that gaves me 30 heat I can disapate without worrying about penalties or going into shutdown or exploding. If I mount up to two ER PPCs, I never have to worry about heat but I can never exceed 5.0 DPS. If I want to exceed 5 DPS, I can chose to mount additional weapons however if I mount additional weapons I can no longer remain heat neutral.

Lets say I mount an additional ER PPC. Now when I fire all 3, I end up with 15 waste heat which makes my mech slow down and perform sluggishly. However I managed 7.5 DPS briefly. If I fire all three again rapidly, well unfortunatly I will probably shutdown and may explode because I need more time to get rid of my waste heat. However I managed to sustain that 7.5 DPS through 2 volleys. Or I can cycle my shots firing 2 ER PPCs, waiting 2 seconds, fire the last one, wait 2 seconds, fire 2 ER PPCs again, wait 2 second...so on and so forth.

Now lets say I add in one more to make it 4 ER PPCs. Now if I fire all at once, I can achieve 10.0 DPS for one shot or double what I can achieve while being heat neutral. However I go into immediate shutdown and maybe exlpode.

With this sort of heat system, yeah I can fire 2 ER PPCs all day long without worrying about heat, but I am never going to exceed 5.0 DPS with just 15 DHS. This is not an issue because the recycle time is the balancing factor in this case. However if I got to 3 ER PPCs, I not have to really start paying attention to heat management and 4 ER PPCs is virtually unusable.

Simple, easy, elegant and exactly how the TT system works.

Additonally it is a noob firendly system. Want your mech to be heat neutral? Well just make sure your maxium weapons heat doesn't exceed the number or heat sinks you have equiped. Weapons do 26 heat, you need 26 single or 13 double heat sinks to keep they cool. Add more heat without adding heat sinks, then your mech will overheat and you have to pay careful attention to what you fire and when. Simple and easy to understand.

Now obviously there would need to be tweeks and I don't think everything could be exactly a 100% translation but the tweeks would only have small effect on the system and be easy to balance with just minor adjustments like a PPC taking 4.5 seconds to recycle rather than 4.0. The key would be keeping as close to TT values as possible though.

[Koniving]

Fun thing is the heat neutrality that PGI fears such as that in Viktor's examples isn't really heat neutral. If your weapons generate 26 heat and you have 26 singles or 13 doubles... You sink 26 heat in 10 seconds. Fire once and wait. So it isn't truly heat neutral anyway (since our firing rates are faster than once per 10 seconds, no heat neutral build in TT is truly heat neutral anymore). Thus all the fears are gone.

To be considered truly heat neutral you must be at 0% heat when you go to fire again. Since no one honestly waits 10 seconds you must go by the weapon's firing rate. Let's use an ER PPC at 15 heat in a real time TT heat system at a 4 second firing rate, as our example. You'd need a cooling rate of 3.75/second or higher to return to 0% heat within 4 seconds. So to accomplish this with DHS.. 15 DHS = 15*2 = 30 /10 = 3.0/second. Doesn't cool fast enough. 19 DHS = 19*2 = 38/10 = 3.8/second, you'd just barely be heat neutral in Alpine while standing still. On Forest Colony Snow you would still keep gaining heat.

But what if you weren't standing still? Ever noticed how you go up by 3% heat just by walking? 3% heat on an MWO 19 DHS (62.6 capacity) Jagermech with no unlocks is 1.88 points of heat rounded up. That same heat on a true TT translation is 6.3% rounded up. So you won't be heat neutral anymore if you started moving, even in -2 degrees celsius of Alpine.

That big heat neutral fear? In that instance it can't shoot and walk at the same time except on Frozen City, and that's a heavy mech forced to carry 1 gun that does 10 damage every 4 seconds. ...Hardly scary. You could kill it with 1 MG. Or a flamer.

Edited by Koniving, 10 August 2013 - 02:01 AM.

[hashinshin]

In Mechwarrior (not Battletech, Battletech != Mechwarrior) heat has always been a crucial point of the game. When you think Mechwarrior you think overheating. As such, allowing widespread use of heat neutral mechs or heat neutral mechs to be strong at ALL would be removing a core gameplay concept.

Imagine playing call of duty without ammo. Or counterstrike, or battlefield, or which ever FPS is gonna make you the angriest.

Edited by hashinshin, 10 August 2013 - 02:32 AM.