301 replies to this topic

[Kunae]

2-Gauss K2 = heat neutral mech.
1ML 4 MG spider or Cicada = heat neutral mechs.

Not imbalanced.

[Jungle Rhino]

Guys you are taking this concept too far. It is not about increasing dissapation massively to make 4 PPCs heat neutral, that would be ridiculous. Instead it is only a SMALL boost to dissapation that is needed (I would suggest by making all doubles actually doubles). But couple that with a LARGE reduction to heat capacity.

The problem is where to fix that heat capacity. In TT the capacity is actually relative to excess heat generated - not total heat generated. Which is a little odd to get your head around admittedly. My question is this: Should heat capacity just be set at 30 for ALL mechs regardless of the number or type of heatsinks? This would make singles a heck of a lot more competitive with doubles and also keep large alphas to a sensible size.

OR

Do we keep the link between heatsinks and increasing capacity - Could do this simply by just halving the existing heat caps? Or remove the +30 from the formula entirely. The heat scale in MWO is measuring a different parameter than the heat scale in TT so keeping +30 just for the heck of it makes no sense whatsoever.

btw what are these alleged HN builds that Paul is scared of? I cannot for the life of me figure out what they are unless you literally triple the dissapation rates?

[Koniving]

(The only reason I'm picking at these is when you put "heat neutral" with "OMG 4 PPCs" or "OMG 2 ER PPCs" with "heat neutral" when it is not true then you're only encouraging PGI's paranoid fears as to why not to use this system despite how it benefits the game in every feasible way).

Viktor Drake, on 30 July 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

If heat were functioning properly, a Quickdraw could run two ER PPCs completely heat neutral with 16 DHS and only begin to accumulate heat if he added in his MLs and SRMs. You don't have to cut the firepower in half because heat sinks should be dissipating alot more heat.

Fair argument on what is not quoted but I wouldn't call that heat neutral.

Spoiler

I'm assuming you mean 2 ER PPCs at 11 heat each. Burst heat, 11, 4 second recycle and fire time. 11 / 4 = 2.75 per second for simplicity. Two of them = 5.5

Proposed 30 capacity, (16 DHS = 32 cooling per 10 seconds / 10 = 3.2 cooling per second).
5.5 - 3.2 = 2.3 heat gen per second.
Time to shutdown = 13 seconds to reach 29.9, and 14 seconds to reach 32.2.

But that is if the heat built up like lasers. PPC heat does not build up gradually.

Instead: Proposed 30 capacity, (16 DHS = 32 cooling per 10 seconds / 10 = 3.2 cooling per second).
Two 11 heat ER PPCs = 22 heat = 73.33% heat.
You'll cool between 6 seconds (2.8 out of 30 capacity) to 7 seconds (-0.4 out of 30 capacity).

Heat neutral would be you cool in exactly 4. In tabletop you're heat neutral because you fire one, wait, fire another, wait, wait, wait out your 10 seconds. Remember we're in real time. MWO you'd be able to fire both at the same time with the proposed system due to current ER PPC heat. It may also be heat neutral at 15 heat in TT, but again that's a 10 second turn not the 4 seconds firing rate.

You can't call it heat neutral unless you're back to zero when you fire them again. That's the definition of heat neutral, no longer has any heat when ready to fire again.

-------------------

MustrumRidcully, on 30 July 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

Let's say you have 20 DHS and 4 PPCs. You're heat neutral, so you can fire all day long if you want to.

But every salvo produces 32 heat. That is too much heat in one shot, you would overheat every alpha.
So you have to spread the shots. You need to build in a 0.5 second delay minimum between the salvos to avoid overheating.

Latter part is true.
The prior.. 4 PPCs wouldn't be heat neutral in a 4 second firing span (the recycle time). 2 would be with your 20 DHS, but not 4.

Spoiler

30 proposed capacity, 20 DHS = 40 cooling per 10 seconds = 4 cooling per second.
2 PPCs at 8 heat over 4 seconds against 4 seconds * 4 cooling = 16 - 16 = 0.
Just 2 PPCs here would be genuinely heat neutral as it cools back to zero when they are ready to fire again. This obviously makes the mech a threat, but that's 20 DHS and only 2 weapons. This mech will get targeted for termination by its enemies very early.

4 PPCs on the other hand would still have 16 heat left over when it is time to fire again, thus it is not "neutral."

-----------------
The basic gist of the heat capacity proposal that's a part of this thread is:
We are only getting 0.06 dissipation per heatsink beyond 10 and a CRITICAL drop in maximum capacity (in some builds as huge as a loss of 50 points of maximum heat before shutdown [capacity]). It's not the end of the world or about invincible builds that can do crazy things.

Ever run the trial blackjack? Cut that maximum alpha strike potential BACK by 10 heat (that's 2 and a half fewer lasers you can fire), and double the cooling rate if you have DHS. That's it.

This video has 2 mechs with 40 capacity, 1.0 cooling (SHS). This is the closest one can demonstrate for you on MWO. 2 ML, 2 AC/2 and another LB-10x, 2 ML, LRM-10.

This one has another two matches with the same capacity and heatsink count, sporting 1 missile, 1 AC/20, and 2 ML for both.

Basically your alpha strike abilities would be Lower than a Stock or Trial mech in MWO's current 10 SHS standard. Your safe heat level would be lower than your typical stock / trial mech by 10 points of heat. (30 instead of 40).
Your cooling abilities would be increased by 0.06 per second (0.6 per 10 seconds) per DHS beyond 10 to compensate.

That's it. In the long run you fire less, you alpha less, you spend more time moving and running around, and you see that bar rise and drop by insane percentages because of how much smaller it is compared to your average 50 to 88.6(max possible at the moment) capacity that you have now.

Jungle Rhino, on 30 July 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Do we keep the link between heatsinks and increasing capacity - Could do this simply by just halving the existing heat caps? Or remove the +30 from the formula entirely. The heat scale in MWO is measuring a different parameter than the heat scale in TT so keeping +30 just for the heck of it makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm afraid of that. Here's why. If we start at zero your basic 10 heatsinks have 10 capacity. You can't even fire 3 lasers without killing yourself. 10 DHS gives you 20 capacity.
15 DHS gives you 20 + 7 = 27 capacity.
22 DHS gives you 20 + 16.8 = 36.8 capacity.
Far too many shutdowns. Holy crap unless you're in an Atlas the game would be absolutely NO fun!
This royally screws over lights and mediums much like the current system.
If you can't hold a 250 engine, you're screwed further.

Edited by Koniving, 30 July 2013 - 03:10 PM.

[Roland]

Quote

I remember PvE in Mechwarrior 3. If you made a ERML boat, you could basically oneshot enemy mechs. That hadn't anything to do with being heat neutral, it was simply that you could stack too much damage in one mech and put it all in one spot thanks to perfect pinpoint convergence.

Exactly. It had nothing to do with heat. It had everything to do with the fact that you could pack as many medium lasers onto a mech as you had tonnage, and they'd all combine into a single uber laser.

Got 15 tons free? Here's a 75 point alpha strike for you!

It's troubling if the PGI guys think that the problem with the gun-bags in MW3 was "heat neutrality".

[Deathlike]

In MW3, everyone wanted to play cold maps, and if you did, you'd have 12 ermeds fired in 3 groups of 4... just to make sure you'd not overheat and die, but also figure out everyone's lag shield. There would be less meds in hotter maps (like 6-8 ermeds, in 2 groups).

It wasn't quite the same alphawarrior as people are trying to claim it as.

[Koniving]

FatBabyThompkins, on 30 July 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

The overall idea was to distract the human behind the keyboard when they are running high heat. It is not an end-all-be-all solution, but something that could penalize those heat banking. As for skill, those with the ability to learn and overcome will adapt thereby increasing skill cap. Note: this is only a graphical reticule jump, not weapons will fire where the reticule jumps to. So they'll still fire forward (or where your reticule actually is), but your targeting computer is overheating and can't accurately represent that information to you.

I like the concept. But unless your actual shots jump to random places like on with JJ flight, yeah, it won't really have an effect.
Personally I think if you have armlock on and you hit this, it should 'disengage' armlock randomly. I'd put an evil smiley but there aren't any.

[mania3c]

MustrumRidcully, on 30 July 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

Pretty much this.

Let's say you have 20 DHS and 4 PPCs. You're heat neutral, so you can fire all day long if you want to.

But every salvo produces 32 heat. That is too much heat in one shot, you would overheat every alpha.
So you have to spread the shots. You need to build in a 0.5 second delay minimum between the salvos to avoid overheating.

Since you have to chain-fire in some manner now anyway, you can also consider running another mech that requires you to chain-fire, like a mech mixing two different weapon types. You could build a 2 PPC + 2 ER LL build for example, and use the spare weight for some short range side arm like an SRM6 or few medium lasers.
(Note: the game is still not perfectly designed for this, since PPC, ER LL and SRM6 have different cycle times - if we could adjust that, too, we get closer to making versatile loadouts to be competitive - the more weapons you can mix and put into an ideal power rotation, the merrier)

While this make sense.. I don't believe this would improve the game.. actually.. i think I wouldn't enjoy meta under these conditions at all..

If heat neutrals build ..and I mean strong neutral builds (dual gauss is not really that strong..ticking bomb next to your XL engine) would be possible..meta would basically shift to these builds and game would be really...messy.. basically best way to fight would be shoot nonstop ..with maybe just few weapons at a time...but nonstop chain-firing..laser show everywhere.. and honestly..it is much further from good mechwarrior feel than what we have now..

Yes..huge alphas are bad..but hell..it's still better than some spam fest without any heat management..

I don't like over complicated solution too..but more I think about it, more I believe current systems are step in right direction..

Edited by mania3c, 30 July 2013 - 06:26 PM.

[Xerxys]

Namais, on 30 July 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

Also on the gauss equation - let's not forget that you're forced to carry volatile ammo for it. That doesn't have a tangible impact on the damage math but does make a huge difference to the big picture when comparing weapons.

They way PGI has it now, gauss ammo will not explode

[Xerxys]

Dracol, on 30 July 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

In prior mechwarrior games, heat neutral laser builds were an issue. IMHO, I believe Paul was referencing those types of builds when he made his comment. Heat neutral ballistic builds have to manage ammo instead of heat.

But they never have to worry about overheating and being a huge immobile target unless they have the worst fire control in the world. I still don't see why this is an issue. I'm heat neutral, but I can only get you with 15-20 damage at a time or fall back on fire control. The game as is stands right now benefits ballistic players greatly and bends over and rapes energy builds. Lasers are so heat inefficient, even with PGI dbl heat sinks, that they severely hamper any energy build. Everyone is crying about how OP PPCs are and that gauss rifles are crap now. I've never done more damage as quickly and as constantly as I have since buying my Firebrand and it duals GRs. You're complaining about heat neutral mechs, but they're already in the game. You just have to have a ballistics build to have one. What most people are asking for is an equal heat neutral energy build. And yes they do have ammo, it's just called double heat sinks, and no matter how many you have you can't fire willy nilly like I can with my Firebrand.

[Xerxys]

MustrumRidcully, on 30 July 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

I have to disagree here, however - DHS are still a seizable upgrade. You will need to do a lot more to change that. What would be a lot better is that stock mech configs would appear more workable despite being stuck with SHS, and upgrading to DHS would make them "overcooled".

If we don't want DHS a clear-cut always-required update, I would probably change one fundamental rule: Engine heat sinks are always treated as single heat sinks. That way, you don't get a free 10 heat sinks out of the upgrade, which is the equivalent of giving every mech 10 extra tons to be spend on energy weapons. This would hurt stock DHS builds, however, which may cause issues.

It's utlimately a design decision: DO we want new tech to be upgrades like they were designed to be in the table top, or are they side grades? PGI never made a clear-cut statement on what they wanted - they are mucking around the issue, basically. Both are viable options, I think, but you should probably segregate low level tech players from high level tech players, just like most modern MMOs don't force 1st level players with their Rusty Longswrods to fight in PvP with endgame players with their epic level ultra-rare +20 Vorpal Longswords of PvP Baddassitude.

If the heat system was working the way it should and was more inline with how TT played out I could agree with you, but as it is now PGI's BS 1.4 heat sinks with this broken heat system are a laughable joke. But they have to give you reason to buy their cool shots, so....

[Xerxys]

Royalewithcheese, on 30 July 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

The thing to remember re BF/CoD is that TTK in those games is measured in milliseconds or, if sniping, the time it takes to pull the trigger. Spread and a time cost to eliminate spread is specifically designed to mitigate that. TTK is much less important in MWO.

If we're talking about MWO convergence, it's important to remember that lasers and DPS weapons pretty conclusively demonstrate that convergence is not the problem and the ability to aim is not the problem. The problem only arises in situations where you can instantly land large amounts of damage. If we limited the number of PPC/gauss/AC20 type weapons, this wouldn't be an issue.

You would find people abandoning those builds for more moderate builds if the heat system wasn't dicked up and then some. Being able to create heat neutral mechs would allow for more brawling builds, better battles and a lot more variety on the field. With the heat the way it is now the optimal build is the high heat hugely front loaded damage. You'd probably be surprised how much of a threat those laser boats would be if the didn't over heat after 10 seconds. Chain firing was supposed to be the symbiotic firing method to a heat managed build so they could keep up a sustained damage output instead of this alpha strike, alpha strike, run away and cool off crap that we have now.

The heat cap would also prevent these cheese builds that everyone complains about, and I don't care if a 3 PPC Awesome 8Q is heat neutral. It still has to fire the ppcs in more of a chain fire method which limits the burst output and gives people a fighting chance. I made a 4 ERPPC stalker and I absolutely wrecked my opponents, but I also overheated after every salvo. The heat cap would eliminate that and unless PGI makes the mech go nova if they tried something like this, the kill count would be low as the massive heat would destroy their electronics.

If PGI does make them go nova we could just call the build a nova bomb. Rush into a group of enemy and alpha strike to go nova and kill them all.

Edited by Xerxys, 30 July 2013 - 11:05 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Koniving, on 30 July 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

To Tolkien on the Awesome firing 3 ER PPCs at once and "alpha all day."

Spoiler

I can appreciate where that's going. I can estimate that David noticed that too. But let's really take a look at that.

Actually said Awesome, namely the Awesome 9M, cannot alpha strike in TT. No mech can. What it does is space out 3 ER PPCs over the span of 10 seconds. A 9M firing 3 ER PPCs with 20 true DHS and 30 hard heat cap can fire all 3 ER PPCs in the span of 10 seconds. Stock build. In 10 seconds the Awesome 9m fires 3 ER PPCs, generates 45 heat and sinks 40, bringing it to 5 out of 30 capacity.

Though doing the math I'm gonna keep this very interesting.

Breakdown, one fired at a time.

Spoiler

• Every 1 second the Awesome cools 4 points of heat.
  
• At 0 seconds the Awesome fires the shot 15 heat and 50%.
  
• At 1 it is down to 11 heat.
  
• At 2 seconds, 7 heat.
  
• At 3 seconds it is at 3 heat.
  
• At 4 seconds the Awesome fires again for 15 heat totalling 18 heat (60%) but has also cooled another 4 this second for 14.
  
• At 5 seconds the Awesome is at 10 heat.
  
• At 6 seconds the Awesome is at 6 heat.
  
• At 7 seconds the Awesome fires the third ER PPC generating 15 heat to reach 21 but in the same second has sunken 4 more heat for 17 heat.
  
• At 8 seconds 13.
  
• At 9 seconds the Awesome is at 9 heat.
  
• At 10 seconds it is at 5 heat which is 16.67% heat capacity.

Boils down to 5 heat at the end of 10 seconds. No shutdown.

Breakdown, fired 2 then 1.

Spoiler

• Every 1 second the Awesome cools 4 points of heat.
  
• At 0 seconds the Awesome fires the shot 30 heat and 100%. Emergency shutdown.
  
• At 1 it is down to 26 heat.
  
• At 2 seconds, 22 heat, Awesome starts back up.
  
• At 3 seconds it is at 18 heat.
  
• At 4 seconds 14.
  
• At 5 seconds the Awesome is at 10 heat.
  
• At 6 seconds the Awesome is at 6 heat.
  
• At 7 seconds the Awesome fires the third ER PPC generating 15 heat to reach 21 but in the same second has sunken 4 more heat for 17 heat.
  
• At 8 seconds 13.
  
• At 9 seconds the Awesome is at 9 heat.
  
• At 10 seconds it is at 5 heat.

Shutdown briefly but within the turn it'll never register on TT. Comes down to 5 heat at the end.

Awesome 9M fires all 3 ER PPCs at the same time.

Spoiler

• Every 1 second the Awesome cools 4 points of heat.
  
• At 0 seconds the Awesome fires 3 ER PPCS for 15 heat each generating 45 heat and 150%.
  
• Capacity.
  
• Emergency shutdown.
  
• Too late.
  
• Core breach warning.
  
• "Eject, eject, eject!!!"
  
• Pilot ejects after clutching his chair screaming "EJECTING EJECTING EJECTING!!!!"
  
• Core breach.
  
• Mech is destroyed.
  
• Nothing is left to salvage (the megamek image is literally a crater).

Mech is destroyed. Pilot ejected. Emergency shutdown failed to contain engine reaction. Nuclear breach. Explosion occurs. The good news is the enemy gets nothing in salvage.

(This is fluff: If the engine succeeds in shutting down (by reaching that limit slower instead of so suddenly) the mech would still be alive. Say if it reached 45 heat via lasers or something more gradual the shutdown could occur sooner, but then again the pilot would have to deliberately override to get to that point. The computer would then expect the high load and have time to safely contain the situation, dealing strong damage but not destroying the mech and engine. But with ER PPCs there's no time, there's no anticipation. Mech is lost.)

But what if the same Awesome 9M had 20 Standard heatsinks? It's still possible to use 3 ER PPCS!

Spoiler

Breakdown, one fired at a time. 20 SHS

Spoiler

Every 1 second the Awesome cools 2 points of heat. At 0 seconds the Awesome fires the shot 15 heat and 50%. At 1 it is down to 13 heat. At 2 seconds, 11 heat. At 3 seconds it is at 9 heat. At 4 seconds the Awesome fires again for 15 heat totalling 24 heat (80%) but has also cooled another 2 this second for 22. At 5 seconds the Awesome is at 20 heat. At 6 seconds the Awesome is at 18 heat. At 7 seconds the Awesome is at 16 heat. At 8 seconds the Awesome is at 14 heat. At 9 seconds the Awesome is at 12 heat and fires again for 15 heat now at 27 heat. At 10 seconds it is at 25 heat.

Result: 25 heat out of 30.

Breakdown, fired 2 then 1. 20 SHS

Spoiler

Every 1 second the Awesome cools 2 points of heat. At 0 seconds the Awesome fires 2 ER PPCS for 15 heat each generating 30 heat and 100%. Shutdown. At 1 it is down to 28 heat. At 2 seconds, 26 heat. At 3 seconds it is at 24 heat. At 4 seconds 22 heat. At 5 seconds the Awesome is at 20 heat and has powered up again. At 6 seconds the Awesome is at 18 heat. At 7 seconds the Awesome is at 16 heat. At 8 seconds the Awesome is at 14 heat. At 9 seconds the Awesome is at 12 heat and fires again for 15 heat now at 27 heat. At 10 seconds it is at 25 heat.

Result: 25 heat out of 30.

Awesome 9M 20 SHS fires all 3 ER PPCs at the same time.

Spoiler

Every 1 second the Awesome cools 2 points of heat. At 0 seconds the Awesome fires 3 ER PPCS for 15 heat each generating 45 heat and 150%. Capacity. Emergency shutdown. Core breach. Pilot ejects. Mech is destroyed. Nothing is left to salvage (the megamek image is literally a crater).

Killed itself.

So, that's how it works!

3 ER PPC Awesome versus 6 ER PPC Stalker (gist of it).

Spoiler

In tabletop you can't actually self-destruct, my Awesome's streak ammo cooked off, causing me to go boom. But in mechwarrior you can and in battletech lore you can which is done as a way to prevent abuse and demonstrate the genuine fear that pilots have in mechs and why they don't fire full auto with their weapons, and thus, you can't alpha strike 3 ER PPCs. You can however fire as I described just fine which is effectively the same thing in a 10 second window.

Now, to be honest I very rapidly caused my Awesome 9M in tabletop versus Lordred's 6 ER PPC Stalker to self-destruct much sooner than said 6 ER PPC stalker, even though said stalker spent over 30 seconds (3 turns) completely overheated to the point that it fell down. It then spent over 20 seconds trying to get back up and failing miserably. Said Stalker had no armor and an XL 340 engine, it also had better heatsinks, generated 90 heat and sunk 26 per 10 seconds (leaving it with 64), allowing it to happen. In an MW translation he'd die instantly.

After firing once (in which he hit 3 different components and missed 3 shots; meaning he fired one at a time), the stalker never recovered from falling over the first time.

Said stalker's pilot eventually died, as the numerous failures to get back up and the extreme heat exhaustion the pilot suffered with many effects on his performance, eventually caused said stalker to stumble a final time. The pilot apparently impaled himself on some aspect of the cockpit during the stalker's collapse, killing the pilot within the stalker which had approximately 13% internal structure health remaining, two broken arms from numerous stumbling and a broken leg in the final fall.

-----------------------------------
Now, to everyone.

More tabletop musings! Atlas K versus Marauder and Mercury. (Just because it's so much fun! Ripe with juicy details on second by second awesomeness)

Spoiler

Though my Awesome 9M from earlier didn't fair so well, my Atlas K prevailed quite nicely as a long range mech much as I predicted from the loadout on MWO when I brought it stock into TT. LRMs missed a lot and the ER large lasers helped a bit, but the gauss really showed good potential as I crescented over a hill and laid waste to the Highlander and Crab in the distance. At one point I even charged forward (slowly) for 15 seconds and then dived into a prone position, where I discovered that mechs in TT don't crouch, they go prone by laying down and apparently I can only use one arm weapon at a time while prone meaning my other hand is holding me up. In this position I was able to use my Gauss rifle at half range and one ER large laser. Getting back up in the next turn, I found myself engaged by a Mercury 20 ton mech from behind and a Marauder in front. The mercury snuck up on me and wasn't detected until after I was already engaged by the Marauder. I then discovered the coolest thing. There was an ® next to both medium pulse lasers in my Atlas's ....back!

I fired the ER LLs and the Gauss forward. Hit an arm, hit a side torso, and hit a leg. I then fired the 2 MPL backwards. One missed, the other got a head. Note the Marauder is already standing in front of me and does not move. I do not move. The Mercury is approaching me from behind.8
Breakdown

Spoiler

• Atlas K cools at a rate of 2 per second.
  
• At 0 seconds I fired 2 ER LLs at the same time hitting the Marauder left arm and left torso as the Marauder reacts to keep my shot away from its weakened head, generating 12 heat each for 24 heat. 80% capacity reached. "Heat level warning."
  
• At the same time the Marauder has fired an AC/2 and missed.
  
• At 1 second I am at 22.
  
• The Marauder fires a PPC and hits me left torso at less than 90 meters with the Field Inhibitor (allows it to deal damage at close range and Capacitor (deal extra damage) turned off for 15 damage; the PPC fails the roll as well and explodes in the process dealing 10 damage to the Marauder that fired it. That arm is lost.
  
• 2 seconds I am at 20 heat.
  
• I fire the Gauss Rifle at 3 seconds and hit the Marauder's leg gaining 1 heat for 21 but sunk 2, I'm now at 19. The shot was at exactly 60 meters, the Marauder's leg takes 15 damage.
  
• 4 seconds, 17 heat.
  
• 5 seconds 15 heat and the Mercury has appeared.
  
• 6 seconds the Mercury fires 2 ML at the same time generating 6 heat. I won't go into how it sinks it. I'm now at 13 heat.
  
• 7 seconds I fire 1 MPL backwards and miss. 13 + 4 is 17 - 2 sunken at the same time is 15.
  
• 8 seconds I fire a second MPL backwards and score a hit on the Mercury's head. 15 + 4 heat is 19 - 2 is 17 heat.
  
• The blinding light and damage caused to the cockpit rips the armor off. The cockpit is exposed at the end of the beam. Though the pilot himself is untouched, the light combined with the heat has caused the pilot to faint. The mech, no longer balanced by the mental signals of the pilot's neuro-helmet and thus unguided, becomes confused and collapses. The impact causes a cranial injury to the pilot. He spents the next 70 seconds unconscious.
  
• 9 seconds I cool to 15 heat and stare down the Marauder.
  
• The Marauder pilot quakes in his seat at the sight of an Angry Atlas that can bullseye an enemy 20 ton mech firing BACKWARDS!
  
• 10 seconds I cool to 13 heat and stare down the Marauder. Glowy Atlas eyes of doom.

The OPs suggestion (which has been a widespread request, demand, and foot-grovelling plea for some time by much of the community that pays in to this game) sounds awesome, but why do we need a 30 capacity? What's wrong with the current system?

Spoiler

For that I'll have you choose your explanation.

Short explanation.

Spoiler

This is MWO's heat system. Please watch. If it does not time skip, go to 9 minutes and 43 seconds in and watch from there.

Detailed explanation.

Spoiler

Currently in MWO we have a rising capacity. 30 base + your heatsink value = your capacity. We're already above tabletop even with 10 SHS.
With 22 DHS we have (30 base) + (10*2.0 DHS) + 12 (1.4 DHS) = 67.8 heat efficiency + elite unlock level for Basic Unlock Heat Containment which is + 20% (13.56) and now we have 81.36 capacity. Almost 3 times tabletop, allowing us to fire almost 3 times more alpha strikes.

High alpha meta anyone? There's no reason to fire or use wimpy weapons, in fact you are punished for them with higher than canon heat. Meanwhile PGI keeps lowering heat on the high damage weapons!

But wait, it gets worse!

10 Engine DHS only in MWO gives us 20 for heatsinks + 30 base = 50.
That's a 250 engine.
What if we had a 175 engine and put in DHS? Having 7 Engine DHS (7*2=14) + 3 Chassis DHS (3*1.4 = 4.2) + 30 base = 48.8.

That's hardly fair! Anything that can't mount a 250 engine minimum is screwed out of capacity. This means light mechs and medium mechs carrying heavy weapons are punished by not having even 'minimum' capacity for a 250 engine user. Not only are you slow, you're punished for being slow! Which means everyone must run faster engines which means more hit detection issues.

Flea, Locust, Commando, Blackjacks, all get screwed out of capacity. MWO's current system punishes them for being what they are. In general all lights and mediums are instantly made inferior compared to the incredible capacities possible with Victors which can top out at nearly 90 capacity before unlocks (but can't carry much in weapons at that point).

How would the proposed 30 capacity affect you?

Spoiler

In general you would reach shutdown very frequently for alpha strikes. Thus you would stop using them except in emergencies as is canon. Chain-firing your weapons, however, you would be rewarded by longer running times even though you'd still shutdown considerably sooner than MWO's current setup. This requires trigger control, which will in turn make battles last longer.

Longer battles result in more time to strategize and plan. Coordinate with your team. This builds up PGI's ideal, which is not possible due to PGI's misinterpretation in how TT's heat system translates to real time.

You will find yourself withdrawing from a fight to circle around an obstacle and intentionally power down while a teammate protects you. The best teams will be those that treat the battle like a coach would a game -- by cycling Battlemechs. These 6 battlemechs are running out of stamina (too hot), they withdraw and 6 more cycle in to take the place, and when they get hot they switch back.

Even with MWO's current rising capacity minimum of 40, I'm having myself and my lance cycle back and forth. When I overheat I pull back and shutdown with the two of them guarding me. LRM boats and snipers of any sort will have identical issues. This is a good thing, as it encourages role warfare and gives Medium mechs a true purpose -- protecting larger mechs from smaller ones.

The Hunchback and Centurion are both mechs with specific roles. The Hunchback is an urban warfare unit, but without the urban environment it is also used to escort Atlases and other heavier mechs. The 4J for example would escort a Catapult. The 4H or 4G would escort an Atlas. In the case of the Centurion, it actually is made specifically to escort an LRM Trebuchet, and the Trebuchet's insane height is to allow it to crest over tall walls to lob LRMs at enemies while its speed allows it to escape while the Centurion kills its attacker.

The 30 capacity, 0.2 per second (2 per 10) cooling of DHS and 0.1 per second (1 per 10) cooling of SHS would actually reward you for using smaller, weaker weapons that generate less heat. Trading medium lasers for smalls would reward you with endurance.

In any Mechwarrior game you trade speed for weapons and heatsinks, weapons for heatsinks and engine, or heatsinks for weapons and speed. Everything is a trade off.

Here, after the change you could have high firepower but low speed. Or high firepower but be easier to kill (XL engine). Thing is for high firepower you trade off a lot of impact for having little to no endurance. You can't spam shots. Shoot 3 ER PPCs in the current 11 heat form and shut down immediately. Space 3 ER PPCs out over 10 seconds and you might be okay. But, you are screwed without team support.

You can trade high damage for low damage and there, you get more endurance. You can keep firing and running around so long as you don't spam your fire buttons. Lights and mediums could never achieve the same capacity as assaults and heavies in MWO's current system. After the change, Lights and Mediums would be on equal terms with regards to maximum safe heat before shutdown (29). Since lights and mediums will become pushovers with knockdowns, this is Extremely Important.

Being heat neutral is actually a goal of light pilots, who would use weak weapons but rarely have the chance to overheat as being knocked over would be instant death; standing still would be instant death, lights can't afford these things!

As a light you can't afford to shut down, as you'll never get back up. Also AC/20s, ER PPCs, and Gauss Rifles are supposed to be able to knock a light mech down upon enough impact. Making it even more important to have this 30 capacity system in before lights get royally screwed over.

With this capacity, you would be punished for high heat, high power builds; not in a bad way like the penalty system but in a way that makes sense. It would be like the original 6 PPC Awesome 8Q in closed beta, just after XL engines but when standard heatsinks was cheaper to run and before the 20% capacity increase and other crazy pilot efficiencies. The Awesome would fire 6 PPCs and immediately shutdown with just enough capacity to avoid exploding. It then had to wait until 0 to fire again. In this though, your limit would be 3 regular PPCs at once at proper heat levels. With MWO's heat for PPCs it'd be 4 and shutdown.

The highest pinpoint damage you can do without worry of shutdown with a 30 hard capacity cap with MWO's heat values is 2 ER PPC + 2 Gauss Rifles = 50 damage and 24 heat (thanks to PGI's super low heat levels on weapons further causing disparity to our already frayed balance). But, 3 ER PPCs in MWO's heat levels would still shut you down for a second.

That 50 with 16 DHS gives you (24 - 3.2 per second = 6 seconds until 4.8 heat minimum safe re-fire time) 6 seconds until that mech can fire again.

With penalties that's actually cut down to 45. 45 is a lot easier to manage than what we have now, and they would fire slower than they do now. Meta builds of 2 Gauss rifles and 1 ER PPC will surface, but those are fragile.

Obviously MWO would require heat-tweaks. Medium laser heat would definitely need to be lowered (6 ML currently generates 24 heat, 7 generates 28, 8 = shutdown) but I think PGI was aiming for this with the penalty system, so I don't imagine that will change. The heat for the PPCs and ER PPCs need to rise by more than 1 point. But for now PGI already made the penalty system, so that could be used.

(Btw under the penalty system 3 ER PPCs would instantly kill yourself with the 30 capacity, lol! That 3 regular PPC thing is gonna HURT!)

Role warfare and tactical gaming would increase significantly. Mechs would live longer without increase armor even further. The PPC meta would come to a crippling halt without the penalty system. Twin AC/20 builds would find heat to be troublesome without the penalty system. AC/10s might become a new meta ( ) and well, things would generally be a little easier on everyone. Lights and mediums would benefit the most, while heavies and assaults would find a dire need to have mediums protecting them.

If PGI keeps the Heat Containment unlock, instead of extreme changes as demonstrated in "What's wrong with the current system," any mech's capacity would be upgraded by 6 (30+ 20% for elite 2x basic Heat Containment unlock = 36). Which would allow you to fire 3 MWO's ER PPCs without shutting down except on hot planets. On mild temperatures you'd have to do so while standing still. In frozen city you can do so while walking.

MWO's "Cool Run" unlock would have to go, however, so as to not create a new problem.

The new metas would shift toward small lasers, SPL, ML, MPL, LL (it'd be safe to use 4 again provided you remove the penalty on them), and ACs. Lots of ACs. But ACs and Gauss Rifles in 12 vs 12 are NEVER going to have enough ammo.

That brings me to point number 2... Minor Autocannon tweaks and eventual introduction of Variants.

Spoiler

PGI will need to address the lore-breaking UAC/5. No, I don't mean the perma-jam. I mean the fact that in a burst-fire version of the UAC/5 is a 2 shot minimum weapon, with a secondary breach ready to feed another 2 shots. That's 2.5 damage + 2.5 damage per trigger pull, and a 'double tap' of another 2 shots of 2.5. That'd fix the pinpoint there and keep it in lore (UACs are always smaller caliber than the original guns. The only way a UAC/5 would have single shots is if it's a UAC/10 with only one barrel, and it'd have an AC/5 sized barrel -- speaking of which UAC/10s are depicted with 1 to 4 barrels).

In their current form a single UAC/5 can outperform two AC/20s. Pack in 2 and let 'em rip.

Autocannons can be further balanced with this concept, already being looked into supposedly many months back but this is a low priority compared to the heat capacity change. The idea is to work in conjunction with recoil, which would help keep players reigned in on their fire times but allow them to spam in emergencies.

(Note: Responses to the video have been lower single shot AC/20 DPS to 4, but keep multi-shot AC/20 DPS at 5 rather than remove the 203mm current AC/20 variant.)

This is MWO with a 40 unit capacity. (30 base + 10 SHS.) A 30 unit capacity would bring the percentages down faster even with SHS, but each shot would also bring it up on the percentage by 25% more than any weapon demonstrates in this video. Notice the heat management I have to do. Choosing between firing 2 lasers at once or chainfiring. Pausing to cool a little before I fire my AC/20. That's the goal here; a true mechwarrior experience balanced by heat management.

How would my course of thinking and level of fun change with the new lower capacity (severely restricting alpha strikes) and faster heat dissipation (cooling)?

Spoiler

I'm glad you asked! I'll use this post from the ATD 43 answers community responses:

Thank you all for your time.

Edit: Added short and detailed explanations as to what's wrong with the current MWO capacity system.

Koniving, on 30 July 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Actually 4 ML Jenners wouldn't be heat neutral without being at less than 120 kph with canonical heat values. But MLs do 4 heat instead of 3 each.

Going with Smurfy's listed value for an SPL times 6... The 6 SPL rig generates 14.4 heat per alpha, burns and recharges to fire again in a total of 3 seconds. All calculations here are using currently listed MWO heat levels for 6 SPL.
In this build http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7787201ceab6f3b with the proposed values...

Spoiler

14 DHS sinks 28 heat per 10 seconds, that's 2.8 cooling per second.
Capacity at 30.
14.4 / 3 is 4.8 generated per second.
4.8 versus 2.8 you'd gain 2 heat per second, 15 seconds to reach capacity.

[size=4]You'd shut down in 15 seconds of constant fire.

MWO's current system:

Spoiler

10 engine DHS = 20 + 4 Chassis DHS = 5.6 + 30 base = 55.6 capacity.
20 + 5.6 = 25.6 cooling per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.56 cooling per second.
Heat generated from 6 SPLs per second is 4.8, minus cooling per second is 2.24 gained per second.

Time to reach 55.6 capacity at a rate of 2.24 per second... 24.5 seconds.

24 seconds hits 53.76, and 25 seconds hits 56 to shutdown.

That is not including pilot unlocks of 15% faster cooling with Cool Run elite-level and 20% increase in capacity with Heat Containment.

Proposed system hurts your 6 SPL 'heat neutral' rig while MWO's current system rewards it with an insane firing time and dps.

To be heat neutral it'd need to cut down to 3 SPL at the most. Then he'd have to stay within 90 meters to do anything.

To be heat neutral with 14 DHS it'd have to be 2 ML. You could use 2 ML. But once you get any higher than that you're generating more heat than you can sink.

Thank you for taking the time to detail a few scenarios and comparing them. Very informative on how the proposed system would work in context of MWO.



I figure that this kind of change seems like it would improve the MWO experience IMHO, and I assume that the devs would not need to make that many changes to implement this for at the very least, testing.

The best part I think is that once meeting the enemy doesn't result in a flash of weapons fire of within two or so minutes, with mechs dropping quickly from so much damage getting dealt, like we currently have.

[MustrumRidcully]

Kaldor, on 30 July 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

Mustrum,

As much as I respect you, you are preaching into a hurricane. The devs are not listening. We have hashed this idea over a couple hundred times across various threads on these forums over the last year. I know, I championed this idea for the last 9 nine months or so after someone explained to me how the real tabletop mechanics work.

Still we see nothing.

The simplest solution often turns out to be the best one. Unfortunately, the simple solution is being ignored.

I know. But hey, when in 10 years, someone has the glorious idea to make a Mechwarrior game, even though everyone says there isn't any money in it, IGP and PGI provded that, maybe he will have read this forums and heard of the idea?

Oh, I don't know. I guess I am just getting insane, repeating the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

[Desdain]

Namais, on 30 July 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Are you really going to stand behind a tenth of the OED definition there? Mathematically volatile is not chemically volatile.

However - pick whichever one you like. If the ammo is destroyed you no longer own it making your ammo pool volatile. Once you've decided which definition best suits you whilst still making precisely the same point, take it, and your tediously obvious e-peen somewhere else.

I don't know why I'm replying to this, but he's correct. Gauss ammo is not volatile. We have dictionaries for a reason (an agreed upon standard meaning for words.) Your point about mathematically and chemically is irrelevant.

[Mack1]

It's almost as if the Devs run lights more than any other Mech....oh wait

[Prezimonto]

What also doesn't help in the slightest is that double heat sinks are always better (barring a very small number of Assault mech builds) and there's no downside to taking them. Back when RnR was in the game (not that I think it's good mechanism to balance around) upgrades were painful to run for new players trying to earn cash.... so not every build went doubles, but as we saw then it was Pay to Win with premium time as you could then afford expensive builds.

What we need is a good reason to take singles vs. double heat sinks. Double heat sinks combined with the high heat threshold are a huge reason people can boat silly amounts of weapons without chain fire.

[Roland]

Namais, on 31 July 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

http://oxforddiction...nglish/volatile

http://www.merriam-w...ionary/volatile

http://dictionary.ca...ritish/volatile

Spot the explosion. Anywhere.

I do resent being elucidated to on word definitions by people who clearly stopped reading the moment their education ceased requiring them to.

If you ask Google to define volatile, the first two links that come up both include explosive in the definition.

Generally, volatile is considered a synonym for explosive in the english language. When talking about things like ammunition, it's definitely the case. Gauss ammunition in Battletech and MWO would not be considered volatile.

When someone says that ammunition in a mech is volatile, they mean that it can explode. Not that you can change the ammount of ammunition. No one would describe heat sinks as volatile.

[Roland]

Namais, on 31 July 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

They would if they had a decent command of the ******* language. If a value is subject to change, it is ******* volatile.

But no one is referring to the number of rounds when they describe ammunition as volatile. They are referring to the rounds themselves.

If someone was talking about the amount of ammunition being volatile, then you'd be correct, but no one is saying that.

[Buehgler]

Based on what I have seen in this thread, I am growing more convinced that lowering the heat cap and increasing heat dissipation is a viable strategies to discouraging the super high-alpha builds and the associated peek and shoot play style they require. Although I am also in favor of "fixing" the convergence issue, but that is a different topic.

The one problem that seems to persist with bringing TT heat mechanics to MWO (not that I ever played much TT) seems to be the "heat spike" associated with the MWO mechanics of giving you the heat for firing the weapons instantly. This has apparently encouraged the expanded (and heat sink based) heat cap mechanism and in turn the reduced heat dissipation mechanic and thus made heat neutral builds difficult/impossible. So why not lower the heat cap to a fixed 30 (or maybe provide some small bonus for more heat sinks), consider increasing the dissipation (and maybe make doubles really 2.0) and then most importantly spread the heat production of weapons out in time. Specifically, having the heat production spread over the cycle time of the weapon (or some fraction of it) would reduce the spike and reward builds with more heat sinks with the ability to stay in a fight rather than produce more/larger alpha strikes. A PPC and an AC2 would both require 20 units of heat sink to run heat neutral, but with 2 of either and no additional heat sinks you would reach the heat cap in 15 seconds of full rate fire. and a 4 PPC build with 20 units of heats sink would only be able to produce 2 alpha strikes before overheating significantly.

[Tombstoner]

MustrumRidcully, on 31 July 2013 - 02:46 AM, said:

I know. But hey, when in 10 years, someone has the glorious idea to make a Mechwarrior game, even though everyone says there isn't any money in it, IGP and PGI provded that, maybe he will have read this forums and heard of the idea?

Oh, I don't know. I guess I am just getting insane, repeating the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

1.5+ years for me.... o and i wish people would stop confusing instantaneous heat with accumulated heat.