301 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

Koniving, on 01 October 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

But stages of shutdown are a neat idea. How might you apply it to a 30 to 54 threshold? (54 is the highest point I've hit with a concept of hardset thresholds with variations assigned to specific variants of different chassis with the current pilot skills; it was for an Awesome 9M which began with 45 as a threshold and after 20% increase hits 54).

As far as I understand - hardset threshholds could be unique to each Mech?

The TT heat capacity has to be reflected by the dissipation only - while actually the heat capacity is reflected by heat dissipation and threshhold - thats why actual heatsinks are twice as good as in TT.

So my example with the Atlas and 4MLAS...and 20SHS. will have a dissipation of 2 per sec (means it is able to remove 20 heat in 10sec)

Firing all MLAS - once will raise heat towards 16 (because heat is in MWO 4) - i have to wait for 8sec...to get to zero. That means I have to wait for 2 cycles - firing once?
With a fixed threshhold of 34? (TT max Alpha Heat * 1,2)
You can fire those 4 MLAS - for 3 cycles....before the Mech shut down. Is this a result you want to have?

I think there is a danger in this concept - the same danger we allready have in MWO - so maybe not the worst. You simple can remove weapons - for heat sinks and still got better results.
The MLAS is a bad example - if you mind I take the AWS-9M with 3 ER-PPCs and 54 threshhold.
You can remove a ER-PPC and some of the secondary armament for a different fusion allowing to mount at least 24 DHS instead of 20.
With 2disspation per heat sink - the worser armed awesome can fire - up to 9times its PPCs while the 3 PPC can only fire 6times...before overheating. That means in the same frame - at maximum rate of fire - the worser armed Awesome will win.
(not to mention the shut down times of the 3 PPC Awesome)

That is exactly the problem with linear heat systems - a better system should force the 3 PPC Awesome to alter his weapon fire (3 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 3) - while the 2 PPC Awesome (2-2-2) Should waste cooling time - means second where his heatsinks could dissipate waste heat but there is none.

That is much more complex...and has to be done for each stock Mech at its own.
For example the Awesome: I think 54 is a good value -

I would say - first warning at 50% - but with 2 sec time to respond - or to wait and cool the weapons - to get below 27 heat points. Next warning at 75% with 1sec to cool down or override ( 40) Next and last warning at 90% only override - even when mech heat gots below 48 - and you didn't have triggered the ovverride the Mech will shutdown.

It will restart when heat is below 50%.

I have increased the dissipation for DHS at 0.45 to prove something.

Now the 24 DHS Awesome can cool 10 per second...that means with 2 ER-PPCs it will be at zero heat after 3seconds - leaving one second for nothing.

The 20DHS Tripple PPC Awesome - has to wait for 5sec until its cool again an trigger the next Alpha Strike (consider that Ghost Heat is not in place)

Now you can stagger fire - like you have to do with Ghost Heat - firing alternating fire pattern between 1 and 2 all the time...although you are always above 50% heat - (means you shut place Override at a big push button next to your keyboard) you will be able to deal much more damage as both other alternatives before you - that means heat managent skill - is required for the optimum.

Hopefully for some clearance: 19sec turn - left top - 2 ERPPC 24 DHS version (100dmg), left bottom -3 ER-PPC Alpha Version (120dmg) , right bottom - alternate fire pattern (140dmg)

[Koniving]

(To be edited later when I have more time.)

Stock Awesome 9M, 20 DHS.

After trading armor and going for a bigger engine, I was able to fit in a total of 23.
23 DHS Awesome 9M
But in order to achieve that better efficiency, he lost his third ER PPC, and cools 0.6 points per second faster as his return. If it fit 24 total DHS, then it'd be 0.8 points per second as a return. Though he'd be generating 15 heat less per firing due to not having that ER PPC to put down range. Less firepower for more heat efficiency. Seems fine to me. It's why the thread is titled that heat neutral mechs (as in mechs that generate x amount of heat and cool it down as soon or almost as soon as it can fire again) are perfectly fine. After all what can accomplish that which isn't already in the game and doing it with even better ease now? They are significantly weaker and traded firepower for thermal endurance.

To use the analogy I've been using for some time: "The turtle and the hare." The turtle is endurance, slow to kill but doesn't stop. The hare is high damage attacks, fast to kill but gets tired quickly. Battletech and Mechwarrior has always tried to be a balancing act between these two factors.

Also, unlike those with lower thresholds, it will take longer for this version of the Awesome 9M to get cold than it would for say a Victor (30 threshold) to go from 28 to 0.

The mech-variant-specific hardset threshold It was a secondary concept to try and encourage PGI to roll with it as an additional balancing mechanic. After all PGI's thrown out so many potential balancing mechanics that they are about picked clean of acceptable ones and the only things left to do now is create things much worse than ghost heat. But if the thresholds are hardset, they can be used to better balance mechs that need it and to help diversify them a bit more. (From something I read, Mektek tried this to balance out MW4's cluster-duck, but still kept thresholds way too high).

So let's roll with an example of the problem that concept was trying to fix here: At the moment the Victor is in every way superior to the Awesome.

• Because of the 'limited tubes', the Victor's LRMs concentrate heavily on CT damage and pinpoint accuracy. The Awesome's LRMs take a shotgun approach and about 40 to 80% of every volley misses. The 80% misses are from when it could fire 4 LRM-20s at the same time. Thus, Victors make deadlier missile boats in MWO.
  
• In terms of PPCs, the Victor can carry up to 3 + a Gauss Rifle. The Awesome can carry up to 6, but it cannot manage the heat due to significantly smaller engine sizes and the requirement of using an XL engine. Yes, the Victor must use an XL engine to carry the gauss + the PPCs, but with its larger engine it can better handle the heat, and the gauss generates only 0.25 heat (basically nothing it's gone as soon as you notice it). Thus, Victors are superior with PPCs in MWO.
  
• PPCs are supposed to be what the Awesome is good at. That and ranged combat support.
  
• The Victor is supposed to be a close-in fighter, relying on missiles, ballistics, and low-end lasers.

And so the thought was how to go about that. If everyone got 30 threshold it'd be fair and heat management would truly matter. But the Awesome... would still be in the same boat it's in now. Except it'd be even worse as now it wouldn't even be able to engage enemies quickly enough to prevent them from getting close. Beyond simply asking for escorts, the Awesome would essentially become completely useless. So I had a thought: What if the typical energy Awesomes got a bit more threshold?

If everyone had 30 threshold, and PGI's pilot skill Heat Containment adds 20% when mastered (10% basic skill x2 when all elites are unlocked), then in the end everyone gets 36. Just enough to fire 3 PPCs at once and walk on normal maps. Or on lighter snow maps, to fire 3 PPCs at once and run.

If the Awesome 8Q got, say 38 for its starting threshold, it'd be able to do the "oh the Awesome can fire 3 PPCs at once" thing that everyone believes in (even if we do know that in reality they chain fire from 0 seconds onward in a system of averages -- MWTactics realized this and I'm sort of proud of them; pity the mechs are uglier than sin). After firing those 3 PPCs it'd take 12 seconds for the stock 8Q in MWO to return to zero heat. Though it'd be able to fire all 3 PPCs at once within 10 seconds.

It'd gain better efficiency firing one at a time, and can ride the heat pretty well doing 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1.

After heat containment + 20%, it'd beef up to 45.6. Just enough to use 3 ER PPCs at once and shut down if it's moving in the slightest or just 'vaguely warm' outside. Or enough to fire 4 PPCs at once while moving, with this build allowing it to cool off at 3.6 per second meaning it'd have 11 to 12 seconds cool off from 40 heat. Of course, not alpha-striking it'd get far better efficiency and we do want to encourage that fact.

Then, I had the Awesome 9M in the example start at 45, which after skills goes up to 54. However, the 9M cannot equip more than 3 PPCs of any sort (I did think this one through) and literally has to choose between a 2 chest hardpoints of energy or 2 chest hardpoints of missiles.

I've done several examples of the concept with one underlying rule: No matter what's done to the threshold, under no circumstances can anyone fire more than 3 ER PPCs at once without shutting down.
And yes I think it's problematic but at the same time it's still far more under control than PGI's core heat system of rising thresholds per heatsink. The concept specifically targets the "worthless" mechs to give them some value to compete with the superior mechs of the same weight class. Only two variants of Awesome were targeted.

I did an example with stalkers; semi unnecessary but it's for the two least-favorite variants, the 3H and the 4N. The 3H after skills winds up with 40.8, starting from 34. Basically enough for it to be able to play itself as a glass cannon or LRM spammer (twin LRM-20s its supposed to come with generate 12 heat without ghost heat). Higher thresholds do take longer to cool off although if chain-fired it'll hold a bit more endurance. Still needs an escort. The 4N only got 32 threshold, bumping it to 38.4 which is enough to alpha strike its lasers only without shutting down (before or after). If perfectly stationary under a map with normal heat, it could alpha strike its 4 ML, 2 LL, and 2 SRM-6s literally ride 98.958333333333% heat. With this mock-up it'd cool at 3.6/sec in 10 and a half seconds.

Now granted, I didn't throw in the 15% cool run in for those builds, because if I did the skill tree I would not have cool run available to mechs with enhanced thresholds. Although if I designed this game from the beginning, Heat Containment would raise your 'premature shutdown risk' threshold, and not the overall heat capacity of the mech. But working with MWO's skill system, that's what I came up with.

The obvious goal is that for an alpha strike it'd take nearly or over 10 seconds to recover. But for those who chain fire, the risk is significantly less.

[Koniving]

Random because I did it...

Topic: 4*LRM-20 Catapults and Awesomes.

NameWithheld, on 07 October 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

It will be devastatingly effective... which indicates one of the things wrong with LRMs today.

It would be hard for PGI to balance against LRM spammers.

Koniving, on 07 October 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

Easy. Remove ghost heat. It's allowing the constant chain-fire spam to be more prevalent than the alpha spam which is slower with lots of gap and far less focused.

Easier, remove ghost heat and set the threshold to 30. LRM-20 generates 6 heat. 4 LRM-20s generate 24 heat. 24 out of 30 means after one firing or one fast chain firing, with this rig you'd have to wait approximately (24 - 2/sec =) 3 seconds to safely fire 2 LRM-20s and shutdown. To cool to zero from 24, it'd take 12 seconds. Of course you fire once every 4.75 seconds, so in reality... you'd cool 9.5 heat before you can fire a second time, giving you allowing you 14.5 heat and allowing you to fire 3 LRM-20s before you shutdown, going a little over 30 heat and taking some damage in MWO's damage over 100% system with a 30 threshold. That's 7 LRM-20s back to back and shutdown.

So 7 LRM-20s back to back and shutdown. Or 4 LRM-20s + wait 12 seconds before you can safely fire another 4 LRM-20s without shutting down. And if you're moving you'd shut down after firing just 4 LRM-20s, as you generate 6 heat at full speed with speed tweak on the 'heat neutral' maps (forest colony, canyon, river cities, crimson strait) by moving with a 250 engine.

Compared to now, where the same build is 30 base + heatsink count (10*2 true doubles for 250 engine) + 20% threshold for mastered mech (2x heat containment is 10%*2) = 60 threshold until shutdown (twice as much spam allowed) with 2/sec cooling enhanced by 2x cool run (7.5% faster cooling *2) = 2.3/sec cooling. That's an alpha strike (without ghost heat) of 24 out of 60, with faster cooling than tabletop. Note that the "1.4" rule applies only to heatsinks added to the mech. The engine is still 2.0 per heatsink pre-installed.

Now, there's 4.75 seconds between firings of 1 LRM-20. That means before you can fire again you've cooled 10.2125 heat. So after 24, you're down to 13.7875 + 24 for your second alpha bringing you up to 37.7875 which brings you to 63% heat (rounded) (you'd have shut down with 30 threshold but we're on MWO). By the time you can fire for a third time you'll be down to 27.575 heat + 24 for the third alpha bringing you to 51.575 or a measily 85.95%. For the fourth you'd have cooled to 41.3625 heat and fired again to generate 65.3625 and finally shutdown.

That's 16 volleys of LRM-20s alpha striked and shut down in MWO's rising threshold system without ghost heat. Problem is, with ghost heat you fire no more than 2 at a time. Know what that means? You'll get away with at least 20 LRM-20s fired back to back before shutdown with only 10 DHS in MWO's current system.

LRM spam online enabled by ghost heat.

Comparison:

• 30 threshold, no ghost heat 10 DHS (2.0/sec cooling for all 10) = 7 LRM-20s back to back and shutdown. Or 4 LRM-20s with a 12 second wait before firing the next 4 LRM-20s without shutting down.
  
• MWO's current 60 threshold for 10 DHS + 2.15/sec cooling (for all 10 DHS) due to elite skills and 250 engine (all engine pre-installed DHS are 2.0 -- those added after are 1.4) Without Ghost Heat = 16 LRM-20s alpha striked back to back in groups of 4 before shutdown.
  
• MWO's current 60 threshold for 10 DHS + 2.15/sec cooling (for all 10 DHS) due to elite skills and 250 engine (all engine pre-installed DHS are 2.0 -- those added after are 1.4) With Ghost Heat = minimum of 20 LRM-20s fired back to back before shutdown, fired in volleys of 2 LRM-20s at a time with 1 second spacings.

The difficulty is that PGI has done a year of balancing with the current system and it's very unlikely to change it.


(Pesky extra words.)

LRM-15*6 Catapult with 10 DHS in MWO.


The SRM spam comment from the video is finally acknowledged here: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2812866

[focuspark]

LRMs are supposed to be stupid scary. There is nothing wrong with Konivings build, except that he got smacked by ghost heat (which is a stupid mechanic).

[MustrumRidcully]

I am not sure how we suddenly got an LRM focus in this thread... Was there another LRM apocalypse and I missed it?

[New Day]

MustrumRidcully, on 03 November 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

I am not sure how we suddenly got an LRM focus in this thread... Was there another LRM apocalypse and I missed it?

My premade might have been responsible for that. I think there was at least 150 of lrms.

[Solidussnake]

Koniving, on 04 August 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Don't forget to triple the armor after that.

I made this as a private debate on balance, but it's perfect. It begins with the 9 ML hunch, with tabletop values in real time versus the 9 ML hunch with MWO values (no heat penalties). Then it goes on to break down a 3 PPC Awesome. All calculations are assuming 0 degrees celsius, which is 2 degrees warmer than Alpine.

On the 9 ML 4P I'll give you a comparison with 2.0 cooling, 3 heat per laser, 30 capacity versus MWO's system on two Hunchback 4Ps using 14 DHS with both in real time.

The 9 ML 4P would never have been much of an issue, if capacity stayed at 30 and shutdown. Tabletop heat, tabletop cooling at a per second rate (0.2 per second per heatsink). 9 ML at 3 heat = 27. With 14 DHS (my average number in DHS for a 4P) at a cooling rate of 2.8 per second (2.0 per 10 seconds or 0.2 per second per heatsink) it'd cool to 1.8 excess heat in 9 seconds, and -1 heat in 10. Thus somewhere between 9 and 10 it'd be zero. That's 9 seconds before it's safe to fire again without a shutdown.

MWO's system with 14 DHS.. Assuming 250 engine 10 engine DHS (20) + 4 chassis DHS (5.6). Capacity 30 base + 20 + 5.6 = 55.6
and 2.56 dissipation.
MWO's 4 heat per ML. 55.6 minus 36 heat = 19.6 capacity remaining. Time to reach second alpha strike at 2.56 cooling per second: 7 seconds to reach 37.52 free capacity for a second alpha strike.

• In tabletop, it'd be 9 seconds of waiting before it could safely be done. More accurately about 8 and a half before you could alpha strike them again safely.
  
• In MWO's current system without the penalty {Scrap} and with MORE HEAT PER LASER WEEE!!! It'd be 7 seconds, or more accurately approximately 6 and a half before you could alpha strike them again.
  
• Read that again. Tabletop / MW3's faster cooling + less heat per laser + 9 ML = 9 to 10 seconds between safe alpha strikes without shutting down. MWO, current system without ghost heat, 9 ML at 4 heat each, with SLOWER cooling, gives us 7 seconds of wait time before we can do a second alpha strike.
  
• Please read that one more time. With 30 threshold, lower heat for medium lasers and faster cooling means waiting longer to alpha strike. MWO's system with more heat, less cooling, says you can alpha strike faster. Why? Rising threshold. This is before skills, which confound the problem further!

---------




I could go through this with PPCs, with virtually anything else, and even use MWO heat generation and firing rates for all weapons. Even with higher dissipation the tabletop system (it's only 0.06 cooling per second increase for any DHS above 10 compared to the current, but a HUGE nerf on maximum heat capacities) requires people to shoot slower, space out their shots, can't alpha strike most of the common builds. Everything the penalty system is trying to accomplish, but without it. We might not even need to have double armor anymore!

It was mentioned that we need to avoid heat neutral builds. Someone running 20 DHS at 0.2 cooling per second could use 2 PPCs at the 8 heat per PPC is supposedly "heat neutral". So? Fix the heat. It's supposed to be 10.

But even at 8 heat per PPC, 20 DHS will not make them heat neutral in a 4 second firing span, they will be heat neutral if they fire 2 PPCs once in 8 seconds. How many PPC users hold their trigger finger for 8 seconds? None. They would have to drop to 1 PPC to be truly heat neutral. How many heavy or assault mechs are effective with only 1 PPC and max speed? Virtually None. Not seeing an issue there.

But what about lasers! OMG they'll be so OP! ....Seriously? At MWO's 4 heat per ML, 4 medium lasers can be heat neutral with 20 DHS in 8 seconds. Oh, wow. Really now? Firing 4 ML once per 8 seconds. You're afraid? Oh no the big bad stalker is gonna kill me firing his 4 medium lasers once every 8 seconds! I'm terrified! Sure the same thing can be done on a faster mech.


Yet here's the kicker, this is assuming 0 degrees celsius, which Alpine is the closest map to that level at -2 degrees celsius. You still wouldn't have heat neutrality in 8 seconds with either of those builds on forest colony snow.

Heat neutrality is defined as the huge sacrifice of fire power in exchange for being able to function with higher endurance or worrying about shutting down. It is also defined as being able to return to 0 heat before you can fire again, or as the ability to hold your fire until you reach zero heat (which means all builds are heat neutral if you hold your fire long enough). How many mechs can do that at their actual firing rate in MWO with 30 capacity and 0.2 per second per heatsink cooling? Even the heat neutral builds of tabletop would not be heat neutral with the same system in MWO. Why? We fire faster. A lot faster than once per 10 seconds.

-------------------------------
In David's example of heat neutrality he used an Awesome 8Q with 3 PPCs at 10 heat each, and 30 SHS.
In real time 8Q fires 3 PPCs, shuts down. Starts back up at zero heat in the end of 10 seconds.
Or he fires one at a time or two then one. Pinpoint is defined as 2 or more fired at the same time to hit the same spot.

Let's break that down in every variation we can.

First tabletop direct translations with 1 at a time, 2 then 1, and then all 3 at once.

Spoiler

If he fires 2, then 1.

Spoiler

Capacity: 30, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 2 PPCs, 20 heat.
At 1 seconds, 17 heat. Fires 1 PPC. + 10 heat = 27 heat. Fired all weapons for turn.
At 2 seconds, 24 heat.
At 3 seconds, 21 heat.
At 4 seconds, 18 heat.
At 5 seconds, 15 heat.
At 6 seconds, 12 heat.
At 7 seconds, 9 heat.
At 8 seconds, 6 heat.
At 9 seconds, 3 heat.
At 10 seconds, 0 heat.

Heat neutral, did 30 damage in 10 seconds. 1 instance of pinpoint damage for 20 damage.

If he fires 1 at a time.

Spoiler

Capacity: 30, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 1 PPCs, 10 heat.
At 1 seconds, 7 heat. Fires 1 PPC. + 10 heat = 17 heat.
At 2 seconds, 14 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat = 24 heat. Fired all weapons for turn.
At 3 seconds, 21 heat.
At 4 seconds, 18 heat.
At 5 seconds, 15 heat.
At 6 seconds, 12 heat.
At 7 seconds, 9 heat.
At 8 seconds, 6 heat.
At 9 seconds, 3 heat.
At 10 seconds, 0 heat.

Heat neutral, did 30 damage in 10 seconds. No pinpoint damage.

If the same build fired 3 at once, he'd shut down and be at 0 heat at the end of 10 seconds.

Now tabletop capacity and cooling, but with MWO's firing rate, fired as fast as possible to avoid shutdown.

Spoiler

Capacity: 30, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 2 PPCs, 20 heat.
At 1 seconds, 17 heat.
At 2 seconds, 14 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat. 24 heat.
At 3 seconds, 21 heat.
At 4 seconds, 18 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat = 28 heat.
At 5 seconds, 25 heat.
At 6 seconds, 22 heat.
At 7 seconds, 19 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat = 29 heat.
At 8 seconds, 26 heat.
At 9 seconds, 23 heat.
At 10 seconds, 20 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat = 30 heat = shutdown.

Player has shut down at exactly 30 heat and managed 6 PPCs for 60 damage in 10 seconds. Only 2 were pinpoint on the same spot for 20 damage.

Tabletop, MWO's firing rate + MWO's heat.

Spoiler

Capacity: 30, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat.
At 1 seconds, 21 heat.
At 2 seconds, 19 heat.
At 3 seconds, 16 heat.
At 4 seconds, 13 heat. Fires 2 PPCs + 16 heat = 29 heat. (Heat level critical!)
At 5 seconds, 26 heat.
At 6 seconds, 23 heat.
At 7 seconds, 20 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 8 heat = 28 heat.
At 8 seconds, 25 heat.
At 9 seconds, 22 heat.
At 10 seconds, 19 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 8 heat = 29 heat.

Player is at 29 heat, did not shut down, and managed 7 PPCs for 70 damage in 10 seconds. 3 were pinpoint (30 damage), and then 2 more were pinpoint (20 damage).

Versus MWO's heat capacity system, with 10 heat per PPC, and then with 8 heat per PPC.

Spoiler

MWO's system. 30 SHS, 3 cooling per second. Base capacity 30 + 30 heatsinks = 60 capacity.
Using tabletop's 10 heat per PPC.
Awesome 8Q fires 3 at a time, three times in 10 seconds (at 4 second firing rate),

Spoiler

Capacity: 60, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat.
At 1 seconds, 27 heat.
At 2 seconds, 24 heat.
At 3 seconds, 21 heat.
At 4 seconds, 18 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 38.
At 5 seconds, 35 heat.
At 6 seconds, 32 heat.
At 7 seconds, 29 heat.
At 8 seconds, 26 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 56.
At 9 seconds, 53 heat.
At 10 seconds, 50 heat.

50 excess heat. Dealt 90 damage. That's with 10 heat per PPC in MWO's system with the same build. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage or 30 damage to each of 3 targets.

MWO's current unchanged system without heat penalties. 30 SHS, 3 cooling per second. Base capacity 30 + 30 heatsinks = 60 capacity.
Using MWO's current 8 heat per PPC.
Awesome 8Q fires 3 at a time, three times in 10 seconds (at 4 second firing rate),

Spoiler

Capacity: 60, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat.
At 1 seconds, 21 heat.
At 2 seconds, 18 heat.
At 3 seconds, 15 heat.
At 4 seconds, 12 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat = 36.
At 5 seconds, 33 heat.
At 6 seconds, 30 heat.
At 7 seconds, 27 heat.
At 8 seconds, 24 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat = 48.
At 9 seconds, 45 heat.
At 10 seconds, 42 heat.

42 excess heat. Dealt 90 damage. That's with MWO's heat per PPC in MWO's system with the same build. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage or 30 damage to each of 3 targets

Except for MWO's capacity system, all of the above same can be done with 15 DHS.

My estimation is that the damage dealt would weaken slightly with MWO's DHS compared to MWO's SHS, but it'd still be superior to the systems listed before it.

This is MWO's system with DHS, once with MWO PPC heat (8) and tabletop PPC heat (10).

Spoiler

Let's find out.
MWO's system, MWO PPC heat.
15 DHS, 10 engine (2.0) + 5 chassis (1.4).
Capacity = base capacity 30 + 20 engine + 7 chassis = 57
Dissipation = 27 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.7 per second.
Fires 3 at a time, 3 times.

Spoiler

Capacity: 57.
Dissipation: 2.7 per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat.
At 1 seconds, 21.3 heat.
At 2 seconds, 18.6 heat.
At 3 seconds, 15.9 heat.
At 4 seconds, 13.2 heat. Fires 3 PPCs + 24 heat = 37.2 heat.
At 5 seconds, 34.5 heat.
At 6 seconds, 31.8 heat.
At 7 seconds, 29.1 heat.
At 8 seconds, 26.4 heat. Fires 3 PPCs + 24 heat = 50.4 heat.
At 9 seconds, 47.7 heat.
At 10 seconds, 45 heat.

Player is at 45 heat and managed 9 PPCs for 90 damage in 10 seconds. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage to each of 3 targets.

MWO's system. Tabletop PPC heat.
15 DHS, 10 engine (2.0) + 5 chassis (1.4).
Capacity = base capacity 30 + 20 engine + 7 chassis = 57
Dissipation = 27 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.7 per second.
Awesome 8Q fires 3 at a time, three times in 10 seconds (at 4 second firing rate), with Tabletop's 10 heat.

Spoiler

Capacity: 57,
Dissipation: 2.7 per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat.
At 1 seconds, 27.3 heat.
At 2 seconds, 24.6 heat.
At 3 seconds, 21.9 heat.
At 4 seconds, 19.2 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 49.2.
At 5 seconds, 46.5 heat.
At 6 seconds, 43.8 heat.
At 7 seconds, 41.1 heat.
At 8 seconds, 38.4 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 68.4 Shutdown..

Shuts down at 68.4 in 8 seconds, possibly dies as a result.. Dealt 90 damage. That's with 10 heat per PPC in MWO's system with the same build. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage or 30 damage to each of 3 targets

We know PGI isn't interested in changing the system. That would make it too close to a thinking person's shooter and less appetizing for the casual Hawken player.

So how it would be if all mechs had 1.4 capacity rise, 1.4 cooling across the board for DHS as a compromise, so that mediums and lights don't get screwed with MWO's system?

Spoiler

Let's find out.
8 heat per PPC. 1.4 for all DHS.

Spoiler

MWO's system, MWO PPC heat.
15 DHS, 1.4 each = 21
Capacity = base capacity 30 + 21 = 51
Dissipation = 21 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.1 per second.
Fires 3 at a time, 3 times.

Spoiler

Capacity: 51.
Dissipation: 2.1 per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat.
At 1 seconds, 21.9 heat.
At 2 seconds, 19.8 heat.
At 3 seconds, 17.7 heat.
At 4 seconds, 15.6 heat. Fires 3 PPCs + 24 heat = 39.6 heat.
At 5 seconds, 37.5 heat.
At 6 seconds, 35.4 heat.
At 7 seconds, 33.3 heat.
At 8 seconds, 31.2 heat. Fires 3 PPCs + 24 heat = 55.2 heat.

Player is at 55.2 heat and shutdown in 8 seconds, managed 9 PPCs for 90 damage in 10 seconds. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage to each of 3 targets.

MWO's system. Tabletop PPC heat.
15 DHS, All 1.4 = 21.
Capacity = base capacity 30 + 21 = 51
Dissipation = 21 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.1 per second.
Awesome 8Q fires 3 at a time, two times in 4 seconds (at 4 second firing rate), with Tabletop's 10 heat.

Spoiler

Capacity: 51,
Dissipation: 2.1 per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat.
At 1 seconds, 27.9 heat.
At 2 seconds, 25.8 heat.
At 3 seconds, 23.7 heat.
At 4 seconds, 21.6 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 51.6. Shutdown.

Shuts down at 51.6 in 4 seconds.. It could easily start right back up. Fired 6 PPCs and dealt 60 damage. That's with 10 heat per PPC in MWO's system with the same build. 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage or 30 damage to each of 2 targets

Compare what I would like (30 capacity, 45 self destruct, 2.0 cooling per 10 seconds per DHS which is 0.2 cooling per second per DHS, with what we have now (variable capacity, 2.0 cooling per engine heatsink, 2.0 capacity increase per engine heatsink, 1.4 cooling per chassis heatsink, 1.4 capacity increase per chassis heatsink). Remember I didn't even take pilot unlocks into account, or you'd spam even more with MWO's system.

We wouldn't even need such hot maps with an appropriate system, but that's just me. But I digress, PGI seems to believe more alpha strikes is considered far more balanced, than wimpy heat neutrality builds. That whole thing above me is a tabletop heat neutral build. With the ability to fire PPCs at 4 second intervals, even with avoiding alpha strikes and spacing them out that heat neutrality is impossible.

Where's the problem, PGI?

Edit: (Fixed poor wording about the listed heat neutral build.)
Edit 2: Stare Dad meme. PGI's solution!
Edit 3: Stare Dad Meme 2: PGI's solution to the solution's problems!
Edit 4: Realized I did regular DHS as a demonstration, but said it was for 1.4, 1.4 the whole way through with no engine b.s. Separated that. Found mistake in some math, fixed. All math should now be accurate, please say something if the actual math given has a mistake.


And so maps must constantly be hotter than the previous one to try and contain the problem.

Edit3: In the first example as I re-read it, it is very important to note 3 heat per ML + "better" cooling and 30 threshold = 9 seconds before safe to fire. In MWO, 4 heat per ML + "worse cooling" + super threshold of MWO = only wait 7 seconds before firing again.

This is great.

[Kaldor]

/beatdeadhorse

[Tombstoner]

Kaldor, on 16 December 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

/beatdeadhorse

Its called tenderizing.....

[Kaldor]

Tombstoner, on 17 December 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

Its called tenderizing.....

Nah, Im a huge champion of this thread. I seen this problem back in closed beta 16 months ago when I started to actually pay attention to the mechanics. They have only muddied it up even more by refusing to simplify the system with something that works on paper and thru many discussions about potential problems by long time community members.

I applaud the efforts of guys like Mustrum and Kon, but like I said, /beatdeadhorse

[Tombstoner]

Kaldor, on 18 December 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Nah, Im a huge champion of this thread. I seen this problem back in closed beta 16 months ago when I started to actually pay attention to the mechanics. They have only muddied it up even more by refusing to simplify the system with something that works on paper and thru many discussions about potential problems by long time community members.

I applaud the efforts of guys like Mustrum and Kon, but like I said, /beatdeadhorse

well tenderizing is a process where low quality of meats is somehow improved and made palatable.
We all know discussing just about anything is really just between forum users. thus heading to the forums is about coming to terms with the situation. it is part of the stages of greef.

I get the reference that is its a futile effort, but id like to have the illusion of hope.

[MustrumRidcully]

Tombstoner, on 18 December 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

well tenderizing is a process where low quality of meats is somehow improved and made palatable.
We all know discussing just about anything is really just between forum users. thus heading to the forums is about coming to terms with the situation. it is part of the stages of greef.

I get the reference that is its a futile effort, but id like to have the illusion of hope.

Here, I give you some hope:
Microsoft has continued the license granted to PGI for a few years, that means PGI has an incentive to make this game good enough so that people buy all those clan packs, premium time, consumables and what not.
That should mean they also have a strong incentive to fix the heat system and build a well balanced system.


Mustrum "Does this work as illusion" Ridcully

[Tombstoner]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 December 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Here, I give you some hope:
Microsoft has continued the license granted to PGI for a few years, that means PGI has an incentive to make this game good enough so that people buy all those clan packs, premium time, consumables and what not.
That should mean they also have a strong incentive to fix the heat system and build a well balanced system.


Mustrum "Does this work as illusion" Ridcully

Yes they do have a strong incentive to make the game better, but better is subjective. I dont see PGI making a move with heat until at least a year post 2.0 and CW.

The clans are an enormous complication for creating a well balanced system, What Paul outlined was very good, but so was everything else for the last 2 years. Then we got heat cap, ECM and ghost heat.

so no i need a stronger form of cool aid.

[MustrumRidcully]

Tombstoner, on 18 December 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

so no i need a stronger form of cool aid.

I got nothing.

[Tombstoner]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 December 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

I got nothing.

What keeps me going is what they could do with clan tech. also its free to play. if MWO had a monthly....i'd be dead to me like eve.

I have to beleave they see the issues we point out, but the game works decently enough to do the job warts and all.
once the games making money and primary content is delivered. MWo 2.0 can be considered, maybe addressing our concerns potentially with actual dialogue and discussion for such and such.

[Kunae]

Tombstoner, on 19 December 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

What keeps me going is what they could do with clan tech. also its free to play. if MWO had a monthly....i'd be dead to me like eve.

I have to beleave they see the issues we point out, but the game works decently enough to do the job warts and all.
once the games making money and primary content is delivered. MWo 2.0 can be considered, maybe addressing our concerns potentially with actual dialogue and discussion for such and such.

They just need to take MWLL, update the models, maps and engine to Cry3, and start from there. Would have cost them a great deal less, and we'd be so much further along, with a much more comprehensive game, right now.

[Corvus Antaka]

Kunae, on 19 December 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

They just need to take MWLL, update the models, maps and engine to Cry3, and start from there. Would have cost them a great deal less, and we'd be so much further along, with a much more comprehensive game, right now.

No one knows why PGI doesnt draw on the community. long history of modders & nerds. We've never gotten a good answer as to why either. MWO maps for example are nice, but nothing special, in terms of what I've seen modders map & make. Yet PGI won't touch community maps, resources I guess maybe, but really the advantages seem to really outwiegh not doing it.

One day a game company is gonna figure out how to bring user content into F2P like MWO as they did in Neverwinter and itll be glorious, we could have 50 maps or more.

For the heatscale, lets not forget mech3 heatscale lended for even more boating than MWO does. mechs would die even faster if we used a mech3 type heatscale most likely. pacing would also be off.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 20 December 2013 - 01:26 AM.

[Kaldor]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 20 December 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

No one knows why PGI doesnt draw on the community. long history of modders & nerds. We've never gotten a good answer as to why either. MWO maps for example are nice, but nothing special, in terms of what I've seen modders map & make. Yet PGI won't touch community maps, resources I guess maybe, but really the advantages seem to really outwiegh not doing it.

One day a game company is gonna figure out how to bring user content into F2P like MWO as they did in Neverwinter and itll be glorious, we could have 50 maps or more.

For the heatscale, lets not forget mech3 heatscale lended for even more boating than MWO does. mechs would die even faster if we used a mech3 type heatscale most likely. pacing would also be off.

They dont do it because they want to make their own game. Thats fine, but they are completely ignoring the ways that some of the previous problem were fixed, in other words, they are trying to reinvent the wheel.

I like some of the mechanics in this game, beam weapon burn time is a great solution to slow down pinpoint damage. However because of that, ACs and PPCs are better due to full location damage. Making large caliber ACs have multiple shots for their damage is an interesting idea, and opens possibilities for multiple types of ACs like an AC20 that single fires, but has a very slow projectile, or shoot 4 rounds in a second with the projectile speed of an AC2, stuff like that. PPCs should be made hitscan with a 1/4 second burn time. I feel SSRMs are in a pretty good place right now, other than the shooting behind you thing, and having more damage than SRMs, /boggle. SRMs are pretty much dead due to low damage and HSR. LRMs are OK, but need to have their angle of attack reworked slightly.

The biggest failing of heatscale in this game is that we have too much capacity and not enough dissipation. It turns what should be a heat neutral, or very close, stock mech into a coffin. Thats a problem. And makes other high damage builds very overpowered as they can alpha repeatedly with no real consequences.

[MustrumRidcully]

One problem of the current heat system is also that it doesn't really matter whether you install 2 extra DHS or one extra ton of ammo and one extra ton of armour. There is just so much wiggle room in the high heat threshold that you just won't feel the impact of this difference. A higher dissipation, lower threshold and actual heat penalties would make this distinction more important and make many build choices have more impact.

[wilson0x4d]

I don't feel PGI has improved MWO with all the "balancing" they've done.

Rather, I find my gameplay less enjoyable now than when I began. I never felt disadvantaged before, even when receiving 3+ PPCs to the face.. and I certainly don't feel any more advantaged now that changes have been made.. on the contrary, I'm constantly frustrated by game mechanics that are foreign to the MW/BT universe, they are more of an aggravation than "alphas" ever were.

You know what I miss? Focus fire of energy weapons and flamers on a "heat neutral" mech to force him into his heat cap. Nobody does this in MWO because MWO's heat mechanics are all about QQing on forums until some new and ******** penalties are put into place.

Ghost heat is a joke.
Increased armor is a joke.
Increased damage is a joke.
Increased dissipation is a joke.
Decreased capacity is a joke.

Balancing combat solely through heat mechanics? Mostly a joke.

I plugged a lot of money into MWO and I haven't spent my time botching and moaning on the forums, but I don't feel like PGI is really delivering on the MW franchise the way I expected. Instead I feel like a million crybabies have gotten their way and my experience has only become worse as a result, and yet I'm helping to pay for it all, such horse pucky.

Now with the Clan mechs coming out and seeing Paul's stance on how they will continue to "balance" clan tech by further relying on already broken heat mechanics, well, I'm not buying a $500 Daishi (oh, yes, I was about to, only waiting on a staff post to hint at us how clan tech was going to be "balanced.")

I get that MWO is not BT canon, sure, but at this rate it's just going to become a glorified robot game that happens to have franchise rights to the MW name. As time goes on some things just feel less like battletech/mechwarrior and more like.. well.. something else. If I wanted "something else" I wouldn't have signed up for MWO.

I've held out for some 2 years as my experience became worse and worse, but if PGI can't stop creating monstrosities disguised as "game balancing changes" I can't continue plugging money into the franchise, as of today I'm done funding development. It's like their producers, designers and developers get all ********* when someone notes some superior mechanic from another MW title, or BT canon, or even community suggestions..

Over it. Today I'll be spending the $500 I saved on Star Citizen instead of MechWarrior, because I still have faith in RSI to deliver a fun product.