58 replies to this topic

[LastPaladin]

Sybreed, on 30 July 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

I can use 4 groups effectively, so I'm guessing it shouldn't be a problem for most of you.

Maybe PGI can find time in their busy patch schedule to allow us to actually map commands to the middle mouse button if they want us to have to handle even more weapon groups to play effectively. It would be nice.

[tigerija]

Yes, Chain Fire has to be changed or expanded because its not working with new heat system.

[Bluecricket]

Heads up: Alpha striking is going nowhere and you will continue to die to them and cry about it

[Xandre Blackheart]

No, alpha strike just got more diverse. And stronger.

Stupid solutions make problems worse. This one is making the problem worse.

2PPC+ Gauss + UAC5 + ERLL is worse than just getting nailed by 4 PPC's and it's just as easy to aim with.

It's LESS heat. What it DOES do is make chassis that can carry it more valuable, and make chassis that can't less desirable.

SAY... it's almost like THEY WANTED YOU TO BUY MORE CRAP

[White Bear 84]

I alway run my mechs with a cooling efficiency of at least 40%, so never really jumped on the boating bandwagon.

I have always hated stalkers for their high alpha PPC boats. Getting a one hit kill on a CT or L/R torso from 700+ meters on full armor is a joke, most time someone gets a kill like that they are boating and that requires 0 skill. In fact all boating requires 0 skill

[Corvus Antaka]

+1

[AsakuraZero]

if memory serves me right.

adding heat to something already hot, and which cooling system its pretty much saturated, heat scales instead just adding up some numbers.

just trying to give some physics to this, but dont take my word on that but take it on this, its harder to remove heat than adding it.

[Shivaxi]

The heat penalty may work for some weps, but there's still plenty (if not more now) dual erppc and guass cats flying around. The heat penalty is a joke honestly. This is not how you balance a game. It doesnt make sense in the first place. They should have just lowered the overall heat capacity on DHS. imo...DHS are overpowered lol.

At this point, I'd rather just see them remove DHS and Endo-Steel and Ferro-Fibrous. All these alpha strike noobs...lets see them play back in closed beta before all this crap. Where matches actually lasted the full 15 minutes and there was no one-shotting anything.

[Aim64C]

Sybreed, on 30 July 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Lol, I think PGI demonstrated just how "skilled" you guys are. They nerfed alphaing, perhaps not in the best of ways (that, I can agree with) but it results in an alpha nerf nonetheless and you guys are acting all outraged and confused.

Good job. You're more intelligent and observant than the lower 30% of the population.

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Look, the PPC isn't nerfed, the ER-PPC isn't, the AC/20 isn't, LRMs aren't, the LL isn't nerfed either.

Really kind of depends upon how you look at it. Take the Swayback versus the Gauss-PPC build. Who can deal more realistic and pinpoint damage?

Or the AC20+2PPC combination?

4 LRM10s are nerfed by comparison to 2 LRM20s.
(This, actually, is likely an attempt to cover up their horrible missile implementation that makes LRM10s stupidly more effective than LRM20s due to their launch pattern).

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All that is nerfed IS YOUR ABILITY TO ALWAYS FIRE ALL OF THEM AT THE SAME TIME.

So, the smart player who wants to kill things more efficiently moves to the combinations of weapons with better front-loaded damage that are not penalized. Gauss+2PPC, AC20+2PPC, 6xMPLSR, etc.

Which is precisely what we are seeing and precisely what I, and others with a shred of analytical ability, said would happen.

Now it becomes a game of Whack-A-Build and Wheel-Of-Stupid where we begin to try and add new builds to the list of "needs to be nerfed" (and based on what ******* criteria other than arbitrary "it kills too fast?") while cycling chaotically through various "multipliers."

This is why hardpoint restrictions were argued for. Back with the lethal gaussapult. But that was the type of customization PGI wanted to support - hence the creation of artwork for it.

That was why convergence and/or corrections to the heat mechanic were argued for - back when people were taking a face full of PPCs.

Instead, we got this pathetic excuse for a solution that only adds more complexity and needlessly adds an entire new system to make a current system work as it is supposed to (heat is supposed to limit your rate of fire).

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So, stop crying about it and learn some skills, you can still use the same loadouts as before. You will only have to keep your aim for a little longer and use chain-fire

Or just switch to the builds that aren't included in the system, yet.

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PGI killed alpha-boat warrior online. In a weird, arbitrary and non intuitive way, but still, it did its job.

... What game are you playing?

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It's about time we play Mechwarrior now.

lol. This isn't MechWarrior.

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Note: Sorry, I had to vent. Sick of reading noobs cry about alpha nerfs and confuse them with weapon nerfs.

You are not forgiven.

[Aim64C]

AsakuraZero, on 30 July 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

if memory serves me right.

adding heat to something already hot, and which cooling system its pretty much saturated, heat scales instead just adding up some numbers.

just trying to give some physics to this, but dont take my word on that but take it on this, its harder to remove heat than adding it.

This is incorrect.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Heat_equation

The exact mechanics behind the buildup of heat are somewhat complex, and involve the distribution of mass, the properties of mass, boundary conditions, etc.

The best way to simulate heat buildup in a mech would be to think of your mech as having two different heat scales.

The first is the load on your heatsinks. This represents the dissipation capacity of your heat system - how much heat can be drawn off of components by evaporator systems and channeled away to a condenser (the heat sink). The more heat sinks, the greater this capacity. The greater this capacity, the more heat can be removed from weapons as they fire.

However, heat dissipation to the atmosphere takes time. The heat yanked away from your weapons is eventually going to begin seeping back into the chassis, despite the best efforts to insulate it.

Your chassis would have a 30-heat threshold used to calculate penalties in real-time (this figure could be adjusted, but let's just start from tabletop and adjust as testing indicates). Using a differential equation simulating the transfer of heat from one mass to another across an imperfect insulator, we can then begin to apply heat from the heat system's capacity to the chassis. The greater the difference between the two - the more rapidly heat will spill across. Thus, high "alpha" builds will transfer more heat to the chassis before it can be dissipated than those that run a 'softer' chain-firing approach.

Penalties don't build up instantly and can still be represented using an analog graph that is intuitive to understand (having two heat meters beside each other, showing heat flowing from one into the other, and a label of "chassis" - and probably some hazard indicators and other such things).

By adjusting these values and the heat of weapons that are fired - you can bring the "high alphas" under control using the game's original systems within a real-time environment. You'd get lore-accurate penalties and have a system that much more accurately represents the style of combat as described in the lore.

[Sybreed]

oh noes, someone just multiquoted me, pinpointing (pun intended) all the potential weaknesses in my observations. I should probably respond in a similar manner in order to look equally smart or... not... give... a single.... ****...

[Aim64C]

Sybreed, on 30 July 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

oh noes, someone just multiquoted me, pinpointing (pun intended) all the potential weaknesses in my observations. I should probably respond in a similar manner in order to look equally smart or... not... give... a single.... ****...

Many of the problems we face, today, stem from people not giving a single "****" about being incorrect and dysfunctional.

People only think about the surface of issues and race to be the first to offer a solution that sounds good. Then they wonder why cities go bankrupt and their business model fails. Again, they look at the surface of the issue, and find a popular entity to blame without actually analyzing or understanding the cause of the problem.

Which is why my assessments are spot-on and my forecasts accurate.

[Lightfoot]

Make Analog Turn on Joysticks as sensitive as Pitch and Twist and you could say this change is fairly applied. However, with Analog Turn being so jumpy the recent changes hit Joystick users very hard and Mouse users hardly at all.

Jumpy joystick Turn that does not coinside with Pitch or Twist sensitivity also excludes Light mechs from Joystick users. In a Light mech you need control over that turn.

Anyway, in all fairness they should have fixed Analog Turn Sensitivity before the heat-scaling was added. Probably 10-15% of MWO players are using a joystick and more would if analog Turn was working right. You want all these players to keep playing MWO, not give-up because they can't aim a chain-firing mech.

[Sybreed]

Aim64C, on 30 July 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Which is why my assessments are spot-on and my forecasts accurate.

sure they are... sure they are...

Do I think the game is fixed? Nope.

Did the actual heat scale changed anything? Not really, not that I noticed.

Do I find laughable people who cry because they can't alpha all day? Oh god yes

[Takony]

It's not hard, it's worthless and pointless, considering double armor and that burst damage is always king. Large lasers at max 2 is also laughable, since lasers being dots already made them second-rate weapons at best. Seriously who the f**k even _used_ ERLL and LPL? People will move on to other min max builds (hello double Gauss Ilya and Jagers) so franken-build lovers could cry more. Not to mention the noobiest solution = vomiting 60-80 LRMs .5 secs apart, 2-3 boats per match per teams, obliterating people dumb enough not to use cover, is already all over the game. QQ indeed made the game more enjoyeable. Not. These gloating posts, honoring the crappiest design decisions of PGI ever, are just pathetic. The same whiners were whining about the "unfair" brawler meta... beacuase they were bown up by ML+AC20+SRM, lol.

[Lightfoot]

Heat Scaling is just a bad idea that won't solve anything, but it will make players angry when they have chain-fire and twitch gaming forced on them. MechWarrior Online needs to allow all playstyles, not enforce one (twitch-fire-macro) because they can't balance damage levels.

The level of additional heat indicates the level of desperation. And it just won't work anyway. MechWarrior has too much depth and skill will circumvent Heat-Scaling making it a greater hit on new players who are having the hardest time.

Also I agree on LLAS, should be three, not two, but I don't think Heat-Scaling will stay as it is.

Edited by Lightfoot, 31 July 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[Xandre Blackheart]

You know... no one seems to have considered why they decided to try and build some kind of complicated system to nerf "boating" instead of encouraging chain fire and weapon mixes by providing bonuses to mix weapon builds and using chain fire.

Like, lowering recycle time for chain firing. Or reverse heat scaling for cycle fire if they just can't stand not having some kind of kludge.

I'm really starting to think it actually is because they want to encourage people to just move on to the newer mechs that support mixed pinpoint alpha and away from the older mechs that don't have a mix of different hardpoints.

[FrDrake]

Xandre Blackheart, on 31 July 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

You know... no one seems to have considered why they decided to try and build some kind of complicated system to nerf "boating" instead of encouraging chain fire and weapon mixes by providing bonuses to mix weapon builds and using chain fire.

Like, lowering recycle time for chain firing. Or reverse heat scaling for cycle fire if they just can't stand not having some kind of kludge.

I'm really starting to think it actually is because they want to encourage people to just move on to the newer mechs that support mixed pinpoint alpha and away from the older mechs that don't have a mix of different hardpoints.

This is just like when people conspiracy theory that the government is doing something dumb but it's secretly for a very smart reason that we just don't know about.

The government and PGI aren't smart enough, you are giving them too much credit, they're just dumb.

[Atheus]

Sybreed, on 30 July 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

...They nerfed alphaing, perhaps not in the best of ways...

trimming...

not in the best of ways

trimming...

not the best way

I think I found the problem.