342 replies to this topic

[Utnapishtim]

I played 3 Matches in the first session.

(Which 'mechs did you use?)- Spider 5K (twice) and Founder's Catapult (once)

(What improvements would you like to see made to 3PV?)- Less HUD (or even none at all would be nice... players should HAVE to rely on cockpit view for information), remove reticules entirely, and allow full range of arm motion.

(Additional Comments?)- had major texture issues on Forest Colony during last match. everything was the same (grey sky) color, water was glowing, all 'Mechs were silhouettes, and a tree became lodged inside my CT for the whole match. (environment destruction glitch?)

p.s. that's a nice JR7-D(S) you got there Niko.
-Utnapishtim

Edited by Utnapishtim, 01 August 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[Krivvan]

Acid Phase, on 01 August 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

I don't need to join this afternoon's public test. Pictures have spoken a thousand words.

Pictures don't show how absolutely awful trying to aim in 3PV is. You have to switch back to 1st person view to actually aim the shot, by which point any target you wanted to jump snipe has already moved.

Edited by Krivvan, 01 August 2013 - 11:38 AM.

[Rusty Shackleferd]

Which Mech(s) did you use for this test?
Dragon, Awesome, Highlander, Jagermech, Catapult
-----------------
What improvements would you like to see with 3rd person view?
I found it rather difficult to maneuver than usual 3pov, especially without the minimap. Although, I still prefer this to be a training grounds feature, the perspective could have a highlighted path that shows were the legs are going.
--------------
Any additional comments or concerns.
I like how the jagermech can fully use its superior arm reach up/down in 3pov. However, I notice that when you are trying to aim in 3pov, the reticle will jump up and down if you try to aim straight. Also, I noticed that arm reticle is not always flushed with the torso reticle in 3pov, as it always is in 1st person. This also applies to the Catapult. The phenomena makes it difficult to aim.

[Tuonela]

Anyone having an issue when logging into the test server getting an message "This Account is Not Authorized"? I patched, tried logging in, got that message. Production/regular server works fine...

[Krivvan]

Tuonela, on 01 August 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Anyone having an issue when logging into the test server getting an message "This Account is Not Authorized"? I patched, tried logging in, got that message. Production/regular server works fine...

Test server is offline until the next scheduled time today.

[Deathlike]

Niko Snow, on 31 July 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

Please comment below with the following:

• Which Mech(s) did you use for this test?
  
• What improvements would you like to see with 3^rd person view?
  
• Any additional comments or concerns.

1. Highlander and Jenner.

2. I'd rather have it removed. Since it is not likely going to happen, the FOV in 3rd person is overwhelmingly an advantage.. from seeing mechs going past you or being shot from behind... and of course seeing over/around hills... which is the #1 problem with the mode.

The lack of minimap (Seismic is useless), limited shooting movement (feels like arm lock, but it's just an enforced limit of 3PV), and the "I can't miss the blinking red drone in the distance" are a nice counterbalance. If you could fix the silly dizzy/shaking effect from running a fast mech (which is already confirmed as a problem) would be the most important fixes.

There are actually issues with where the camera is relative to your mech... particularly when your mech is naturally tall like the Highlander that makes seeing the legs impossible. Also, it is very difficult to poptart for the same reason... it probably would be a little bit easier in a Cataphract than it would be a Quickdraw based on their height alone.

The best use currently is to "scout" over/around the hill in 3PV and just go back to 1PV because it is actually difficult to determine if your shot would clear the hill. The strange irony is that MW4 made this easier for you (if you saw a red reticule, you were good to go) and it's actually very difficult in MWO.

3. MM was terrible when I "missed" the boat, which seems to show a lack of players at the moment I was trying to get into a match (had to wait 10-15 mins in the current cycle of games). I also had a strange "dump" to mechlab, but the mech wasn't locked in (which was good) early on in my session.

Edited by Deathlike, 01 August 2013 - 11:43 AM.

[Acid Phase]

Krivvan, on 01 August 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

Pictures don't show how absolutely awful it is trying to aim in 3PV is. You have to switch back to 1st person view to actually aim the shot, by which point any target you wanted to jump snipe has already moved.

Screw aiming, the switching between 3PV and 1PV will be mostly used for this reason alone.

Acid Phase, on 01 August 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

You can see more of what's going on in the left, right and above you.

Tactics are non existent. PGI are not going to lessen the advantage 3PV has. Done.

[ManDaisy]

YES! Rem

Utnapishtim, on 01 August 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

I played 3 Matches in the first session.

(Which 'mechs did you use?)- Spider 5K (twice) and Founder's Catapult (once)

(What improvements would you like to see made to 3PV?)- Less HUD (or even none at all would be nice... players should HAVE to rely on cockpit view for information), remove reticules entirely, and allow full range of arm motion.

(Additional Comments?)- had major texture issues on Forest Colony during last match. everything was the same (grey sky) color, water was glowing, all 'Mechs were silhouettes, and a tree became lodged inside my CT for the whole match. (environment destruction glitch?)

p.s. that's a nice JR7-D(S) you got there Niko.
-Utnapishtim

Removing the Reticule would greatly balance this 3rd person view. Why would a drone be able to see your aiming reticule anyway?

[AntharPrime]

Krivvan, on 01 August 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

Pictures don't show how absolutely awful it is trying to aim in 3PV is. You have to switch back to 1st person view to actually aim the shot, by which point any target you wanted to jump snipe has already moved.

They didn't have a problem doing so in 3PV on the NGNG livestream. The Spider they were running could see the mechs from behind cover, line up the shot, jump, hit and disappear faster than when the JJs had no reticle shake.

[xengk]

Heffay, on 01 August 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

Quick video I made of 3PV.

This proves that even with better FoV in 3PV, people are still horrible pilots.
Bumping into each other at the start.

[Capfailboat]

• Which Mechs did you use for this test? Misery, Yen Lo Wang, CPT-K2, Jenners
  
• What improvements would you like to see with 3rd person view? Do Not allow for switching views with in a match. It is either on or off. I found myself switching between the two modes for the mini-map. The camera drone make enemy mechs easily identifiable from a distance. On maps like Tourmaline, where mechs tend to blend in, you just look for the red lights.

[aniviron]

Played in a Raven, Victor, and Awesome. Here are my thoughts:

The crosshair snapping is pretty obnoxious. It's not at all uncommon for me to be aiming directly at someone who is in marginal or no cover only to have the algorithm decide that even though my weapon group indicators are centered on the other mech, I am really aiming at the ground. It also seems to hurt low-mounted weapons disproportionately, making them even less useful than they were before.

The crosshair being less useful is sort of a mixed blessing however, in the same way that bad PPC hitreg is- the bugginess helps to balance out something that would otherwise be too good. It's simply far too easy to see over ridgelines, and if you're smart with the camera, you can look up and then snap down before taking a shot, and you still get to see your opponent and line up ahead of time, while they don't get any advantage because the camera isn't visible until the last instant. It also helps mechs like the stalker a ton, as they need to expose just a tiny bit of their mech to shoot anyway, so even if the other guy sees the red light, he won't be able to return fire while you have him in constant view.

As far as the lack of info on the 3pv hud is concerned: you removed all the wrong things. While I appreciate that you want to make 3pv have its own set of drawbacks, most of what removing the minimap and lance list do is make it impossible to find your teammates. The blue triangles you see through the walls are worthless for this, as they appear the same size at 100m and 900m. Since this change is aimed mostly at new players, what you have done is given them a choice between being able to see around corners, essentially a free seismic sensor, at the expense of not knowing where their teammates are going, seeing how much health they have, or being able to see commander orders to attack, defend, move, etc. I can't imagine discouraging teamplay in this manner is going to make the pug game experience better, for anyone. At the same time, the removal of the lance display and minimap do not do much at all to address the concern that the forums have voiced about giving the player so much visibility around their mech; the hud elements you have chosen to remove do not prevent pre-aim or scouting from behind walls in the slightest. I would much rather see a removal of the target info box or red enemy brackets than the lance menu or minimap for 3pv.

The poll asks how much easier it was to tell how my torso was twisted, and doesn't consider that I might actually find it harder to tell in 3pv than fpv. When twisted 90 degrees to one side or especially when zoomed, I actually find it significantly more difficult to tell which way I am aimed. This is compounded if I am getting hit by LRMs or small ballistics that generate huge smoke clouds and obscure the model to the point of not being able to see it.

I found the camera to be unacceptably jerky when compared to 1pv; every little hillock and bump in the terrain jars the camera, and makes combat at all but the closest ranges quite difficult unless you slow your mech to a crawl. This seems to be due to the fact that the 3pv camera tracks the mech's body to determine where the crosshair should be, unlike 1pv. This is observable fairly easily when firing at a wall with a laser while moving parallel to it on level terrain. In 1pv, you will draw a perfectly level line across the wall with your beam, and the decals reflect this. In contrast, 3pv draws an undulating squiggle that varies based on where in the walking animation the mech is.

Unless I am mistaken, part of the reason for implementing 3pv was to let people admire their own mechs outside of the mechlab; unfortunately, even with the motion blur setting off in the menus, the game still has the persistent motion blur bug from months ago where it is never completely disabled. While it's not so noticeable on enemy mechs a few hundred meters away, it looks really really bad in 3pv, and makes my own mech look pretty awful, and completely mars the experience for me. This would be a good time to finally fix that bug.

No idea if the new bugs I was getting were related to 3pv or not, but might as well list them now in case they are:

The battlegrid is incorrectly positioned, it has been moved down too far and the bottom half is off-screen.

I almost never crash in normal play, but I got about 6-7 crashes to mechlab immediately after finding a match; it would load up the game, and come back as soon as the screen went back, before the loading screen came up. Oddly enough, this did not lock the mech in which I'd been trying to launch.

[Solis Obscuri]

[mariomanz28]

I used a Centurion, Highlander, Cataphract, Jagermech, and Awesome to test 3PV.

For one the reticle moves too much on it's own and I'm not talking about the bob when walking. It "snaps" up and down based on what you are looking at. I was looking at my friends Atlas and as soon as the reticle came to his mech it would "snap" down lower than where I was aiming and pulling up it wouldn't move until it would suddenly "snap" up into the air above his mech.

What do I think? The view definitely gives more of an advantage when it comes to seeing things but if you use seismic in the concern of seeing around corners it's not that great. But then again 3PV is free and doesn't take time to get the XP (or cbills) to use and you don't have to buy it for every mech or swap between them like you do with seismic. For me, personally, I couldn't stand using 3PV, it felt awkward and the reticle movement made it hard to aim, also "soft" arm lock even though I never use it. I'm still on the fence whether the increased vision outweighs the cons of 3PV. I for one will probably not use it at all.

Another note is that FPS in this build was absolutely horrendous for both me and my friend. MUCH lower than both the 12v12 test and 8v8 Live server and it didn't matter if I was in 1PV or 3PV. It was almost unplayable sometimes even though doing benchmarking tests for 12v12 and 8v8 resulted in a Average FPS of 40-50 across most maps and both 16 and 24 players. Here however I was lucky to be above 30 FPS.

Also something else 4 AC/2's are even more bugged. Probably my favorite Jager build and it's generating ridiculous amounts of heat (overheating from 0% in roughly 2 seconds of firing with 2x Elite bonus, talking jumps of 15-20% every cycle time) even when firing staggered 2 then 2. Before I was at least able to somewhat manage the bugged heat, now it's just time to tear it down and build a new setup.

[laconic specter]

Nijle, on 01 August 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

Since this is supposed to help newbies out, you know how when you are a new pilot and your first 30 games or so you get a C-Bill bonus? Why not let those people who are on the newbie C-Bill bonus use 3PV, then lock it to 1stPV after that?

This right here seems like a great idea to me.

[Farpenoodle]

Which Mech(s) did you use for this test?
JR7-F, TBT-3C, TBT-7M, CN9-A SDR-5K, CTF-3D

What improvements would you like to see with 3rd person view?
Make the transition between 1st and 3rd person much slower. Around 5 seconds would be my suggested number. Possibly locking the user out of his controls while the drone deploys/undeploys. This should make it harder for people to use 3PV to peek over a ridge and then switch to 1st person to shoot. This doesn't prevent someone on the team from being "overwatch" so I would also like to see the drone be destructible if 3PV is to be used in any kind of "serious" match.

Any additional comments or concerns.
I would still rather it not be in, but this is about as reasonable an approach to 3PV as I guess it could be. So good job on that I guess.

[Tsula]

Acid Phase, on 01 August 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

I don't need to join this afternoon's public test. Pictures have spoken a thousand words. The FOV in 3rd person is massive. There is no way to tweak 3PV in a way that doesn't give a massive advantage. You can see more of what's going on in the left, right and above you. So no. I don't care for it, and if it is implemented I'm done. Moving on. I can see many if not all playing this mode for obvious reasons.

Test it yourself for me it was a major change and awkward it does not break the game really. Picture are picture try aiming and things seem just off.

[Rema86]

My answers: Q1-Y Q2-3 Q3-3 Q4-4 Q5-2 Q6-4 Q7-3
Some were filled due to doubting or a lack of a better choice.

I am unclear wether the production build will let you switch view with F4 or if it will be locked for the duration of a round. Answers reflect this.

-Which Mech(s) did you use for this test?
Catapract 3D jumpsniper 2x erppc 1x gauss
Spider 5D - LL-ML mix. XL, JJ's
Jenner JR7-K 4MPL XL + JJ's
Hunchback 4P - XL225 2LL 6ML
Catapult A1 - 3x LRM10 2xLRM15 (jokebuild, but used it to test lrm's)
Stalker 5M -2xer ppc 2x ppc 1x MPL. STD300
Victor DS - 1x gauss 1x er ppc 2xLL 330XL+JJ's

What improvements would you like to see with 3rd person view?

----1In general viewing angles seem ok, they are locked to cockpit view and moving the camera closer when you get closer to a surface functions......... but...

For scouts, it doesnt work, it provides significant advantage to them because when looking below or around sloped sides you can abuse it to look over buildings/hills and around corners.
This allows peekaboo gameplay where the scout moves a lil from cover to take a potshot while the other mech turns or looks away.Scout can most likely safely return to cover because of speed.

For mediums and heavy's it seemed ok. Assaults (STk-5M) can also peek over buildings but the difference there is neglible due to the camera lights and the stalkers slow speed.

-Viewing angle makes it harder to aim arm weapons due to shifted field of view.
-Viewing camera became extremely rocky while going faster, this happened to me on both the spider and the jenner. This part I deem unacceptable. Also the camera on the spider 5d plain sucked. Made it feel like moving a sluggish cardboard model while walking.
-LRM boats like the A1 gained no significant advantage because of the time to lock and because the crosshair follows the cockpit view even while in 3pv. (for instance while standing behind a hip sized rock you could not keep lock for long) This was ok.

Requires tweaking.


---2 New player experience not sifnificantly improved although it does provide some insight into how far a mech can torso twist. On most mechs, it does not show the legs even while zoomed out. This in combination with the loss of the minimap would degrade team awareness if the view were to be locked in 3pv for the entire round.

I think a new player would prefer to loose things like health status, weapon groups and such rather than the minimap in 3pv, because he'll have no idea what his team is doing.

So if 3pv would be locked for the entire round: please proceed allong similar line but choose different hud elements to not show.
If not locked and switchable: remove mech paperdoll and weapongroups alongside minimap to make it feel less clutter-ish.

--3 Poptarting - It is easier to peek over building by looking towards the floor then jumping to make sniper shots. Jumpjets themselves feel weird, the first phew meters 'race' ahead because of odd visual effects on heavier mechs like the victor. Also the animation of the fire looks less nice up close. All this makes for a less pleasant viewing experience while jumpjetting but also because of the abusable viewing angle makes them able to do more damage without taking any. In essence you gain more advantage then you loose here. JJ shake is less effective. Requires tweaking.

My concern with this is that you would have to adjust 3pv angle on each and every mech seperately, unsure if this is possible or even viable for gameplay from a dev point of view.

Requires tweaking.

---4 Some people have commented ingame that the drone can be hit by weapons, this is undesirable if true. 3pv drones should not impact damage registration.

Any additional comments or concerns.

-I loved being able to see my Catapult flaps open and close.
-This build was remarkably unstable for me, several crashes to mechbay while normally I had no issues. Odd thing is that it didnt lock my mech. Matchmaking issue?

Closing comments:
Again assuming it may be locked for the entire round duration:

-I would prefer 3pv to be implemented in the form of just 1 gamemode if possible. Say one form of Conquest in 3PV and thats it. Perhaps even make it so you only earn Cbills there and not XP. The idea of 3PV in 1v1 solaris battles might be acceptable.

Multiple 3pv gamemodes however would suggest to people that it is the standard or more liked gamemode. New and more casual people would likely flock to it. I do not like the idea of this because 1st person provides much better atmosphere to the game. 3pv at times feels downright clunky. Not a good first impression to a new player if the view is locked for the entire round.

If not locked, seperate gametypes would not be needed if the option to 'mutate' 3PV out for competitive games remains. If not locked it would require further restriction and some changes, but can become acceptable.

All in all I can live with the option itself, but definitely do not want to see it in the competitive/community warfare scene. To much of a gamechanger. Detracts to much from atmosphere of the game.

Edited by Rema86, 01 August 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[Slopey]

Krivvan, on 01 August 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

Pictures don't show how absolutely awful trying to aim in 3PV is. You have to switch back to 1st person view to actually aim the shot, by which point any target you wanted to jump snipe has already moved.

You're missing the point though. PGI will fix all the disadvantages (no minimap, terrain-sticking aim) etc, to make it viable to play. Then with a field of view of 120 degrees, it is massively advantageous to use.

The very fact it exists is bad. Do you seriously trust PGI to implement it in *exactly* the current state? They'll get a torrent of bug reports about how it isn't as good as 1PV, and will *have* to fix it.

So it *will* become OP, even if it isn't in the current implementation.

[Krivvan]

Slopey, on 01 August 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

Do you seriously trust PGI to implement it in *exactly* the current state? They'll get a torrent of bug reports about how it isn't as good as 1PV, and will *have* to fix it.

If anything I'm expecting them to give it even more of a disadvantage.