342 replies to this topic

[Phalanx100bc]

Wow...no interest in 12 v 12 gameplay like framerates..hit detection etc.

Really PGI you have all the metrics you need for Sept?

[Bobby Bolivia]

1) Atlas DD-C and Raven 3L
2) None. The implementation seems pretty neutral, if not slightly biased towards first person. My personal opinion as a long time player who did not want 3rd person is that the way it is would be fine in the actual game.
3) I like the current implementation as it will open the game to a broader audience without affecting gameplay for the current user base.

[NoBodie]

Drone can be seen at over 3k. Get ride of the flashing light. Gives away your position.

Would like to have the mini map available.

Seen no advantage or disadvantage. Would like to see all of the legs and feet. That way can kick those pestie light under your feet.

[MegaZordTrololo]

Which Mech(s) did you use for this test?

Yen-lo-Wang, Hunch-4P, Atlas-D-DC

What improvements would you like to see with 3^rd person view?

• The texture quality on the back of the Atlas appears blurred and ugly due to its close proximity to the third person view. Perhaps the camera should be seated further back somehow (not sure how you would do this without giving an unfair FOV to the player)

• I understand and support enforced arm lock in 3pv from a point of view of balancing, however there is a noticeable (but not useful) amount of travel in the arms still which just feels clunky. It would be better if the arms were stiffly locked to the torso.

• The goal for 3pv to make mech piloting more intuitive has only partially been met. The legs are barely visible from the chosen viewpoint. I found that I had far less judgement of where my legs were in relation to my torso in 3pv than in 1pv. I would often find myself unexpectedly reaching my torso twist limits or lurching about in unexpected directions. However this drop in piloting accuracy may be down to the loss of familiarity I have with 1pv.

Any additional comments or concerns.


While 3pv has a number of effective tradeoffs with 1pv, the fact remains that a player who chooses to use 3pv for brief periods to gain situational awareness has an advantage over a player who uses 1pv alone. For example a player might briefly switch to 3pv to verify what mech chassis seismic sensor blips represent, by peeking over a ridge or around a corner. For this reason 3pv would have to have a seperate queue to those who want to play in 1pv only.

I do not feel that 3pv as it is currently implemented would be helpful enough to new players to warrant the fracturing of the player base it necessitates.

Edited by MegaZordTrololo, 01 August 2013 - 05:08 PM.

[Drakari]

I tried 3PV... it was nearly impossible to aim my weapons (made even worse by the fact that arm lock was replaced by "your arms can move in a tiny space around your torso reticle, regardless of arm lock status and even whether your arms are capable of moving). It was slightly easier to keep track of the difference between torso and leg facings, but not by that much and it would definitely not make a later transition into using the minimap for such things any easier.

As for seeing behind you and/or over obstacles, I can see that being a problem. While actually fighting with 3PV enabled would be difficult, it can be switched to very quickly to get a look over or around something without exposing yourself to damage. With the potency of Seismic sensor it seems like a pretty bad trade to remove the ability to easily benefit from that for occasionally being able to stay in cover while looking at enemies.

All that said, I don't think there would be that much of a balance issue if you had to choose one or the other, and can't switch during a match (or at least if it was a significant thing, say something that takes as long as shutting down and restarting your mech).

[Devil Fox]

I think if you introduce a 3PV only queue, and remove all the downsides in the mixed queue, then 3PV might be enjoyable for fun matches or just to casually relax whilst watching your camo melt away.

[P4riah1]

Having now used it, 3rd person should most definitely NOT be in this game, for multiple reasons.

NOTE: I am operating under the assumption that the reasons the devs are adding it is to help new players.

1) For actual fighting, 3PV is VASTLY inferior to 1PV. It's less smooth, but mostly it's the forced arm lock. Making it worthless in a fight, and doesn't even make sense. Having unlocked arms won't give you any extra view advantage. If this is to help newbies, I think it will turn them off of the game, because it's far less effective in a fight.

2) It's WAY to good for scouting. The poll question on this one is stupid, and doesn't have the right answers. It asks about 'can see me can see them' but none of the answers are the correct 'its way too easy to see things without being seen'. You can easily see around corners without being seen in the slightest, and you can see over ridges without the danger of being shot. Sure, they know you're there, but you can watch them for minutes at a time, relaying data to your team, and never get shot. 100% should not be in the game like this.

3) On 75% of the mechs, you can't actually see the legs AT ALL, so it's WORTHLESS for the 'see where your legs are' excuse (and I'm starting to think that's just what they are - excuses). You can see the legs on light mechs and a few really short mediums and heavies (can see legs on Dragon, can't on Hunchies, Cents, Catapults).

4) The HUD penalties are dumb. 100%. Balance this thing on it's OWN gameplay mechanics, don't artifically remove unrelated elements in what's one of the most clumsy attempts at 'balance' I've ever seen. And if it can't be balanced on it's own, then that should be a clue.

TL:DR
So it's worthless for fighting, it's not even good at it's stated goal of helping new players see their own mech, and it's ONLY good at breaking the game as far as scouting is concerned.

Edited by P4riah1, 01 August 2013 - 05:41 PM.

[Dyrael]

• Which Mech(s) did you use for this test? Awesome
  
• What improvements would you like to see with 3^rd person view? A slight delay when deploying "the drone", maybe add a neat sound effect, something to make it not instantaneous.
  
• Any additional comments or concerns. Felt like a great addition. Felt essentially the same as 1st person view, didn't feel there were any significant advantages for using it. Look forward to seeing it again.

[Clint Steel]

Mechs tested: Cicada, Raven, Catapult and Highlander

Notes on build (not necessarily 3POV) I use a mouse to move recticle and turn torso, and joystick in left had to control throttle and leg turning.

Overall I found mouse response was was off, could have been something to do with using profiles with my G700 and this being a different exe but i couldn't get it to feel right.

Turning in 3rdPOV seemed particular sluggish, i think because unlike 1stPOV you are locked to your torso.

I couldn't use 3rdPOV for battle, nor would I want to. Like a race sim I like being in the cockpit it gives a more immersive feel to do it like the people in real life. If the point of this is to help the new play see his leg orientation its somewhat of a failure since your legs are still not readily visible and some mechs use "backwards legs" which will confuse the rookie.

I would fix leg orientation by allowing a wide "projected" arrow appear on the ground oriented with your leg direction as a player gets more comfortable they can disable it. Or in your hud, an image that shows a 3D image of you and your legs. (a customizable hud would be nice to locate it where the person might want it.

Either way my vote is to only put 3rd person in testing grounds.

[Texas Merc]

really great posts on page 17

[DevilCrayon]

• Which Mech(s) did you use for this test? - Trial Cicada
  
• What improvements would you like to see with 3^rd person view? - the snap-to on targeting reticule is a bit ... jarring?
  
• Any additional comments or concerns. - Only got one game in before servers were shut down.

[Sharp Spikes]

Mechs used:
Victor 9K: 2*ERPPC+Gauss
Blackjack 1X: 6*Ml+Lgl

* In 3PV crosshair jumps unpredictably when trying to aim at something. It makes aiming in 3PV nearly impossible.
* 3PV gives significant tactical advantage in some situations (ability to see where enemy mechs are while being completely hidden from them).
* Hit detection for lasers works no better than on production servers and that means it doesn't work.
* Hit detection for ballistics/PPCs seems to be OK.
* Fps significantly (that is below 20) drops in combat, both in 1PV and 3PV. That wasn't the case in previous test, when we tested 12VS12 mode.
* PPCs got their heat increased, quiaff?

[Hexenhammer]

I played, Atlas D and HBK-4SP

The one thing I love about the noob light is the one thing I would change. It screams. "HERE I AM!" with a voice so loud I can hear it over 2k away. I don't know if it needs to be toned down or taken out because right now its like the glowing red eye of the Atlas. Cool idea but trolls will be using it to give away people's positions.

[Ranger Aodhan]

• ASD-D(F), ASD-RS, ASD-K, CDA-3M, CMD-2D
  
• Reduction of the brightness of the drones' red light to not cause another atlas eyes thing.
  
• The aim snapping to distances was horrible for trying to pop in and out of cover shots.

[Dadrick]

Mechs used:
Centurion, Highlander, Raven, Cataphract,

With regard to 3PV, I felt that it actually reduced my situational awareness. The loss of the mini map makes it difficult at times to coordinate with my team mates. In fact, I noticed that there were many cases of people bumping into each other while playing tonight.

Another point I'd like to touch on is that hit detection with missiles and autocannons was very poor. I was having missile volleys fail to connect with targets standing still not even 200 meters away.

One last closing note. My fps was about 20 frames lower on the test server than it is on live. I tried changing all of the video settings to their lowest, but it made no difference. This for me was the biggest issue tonight, it became very difficult to play when there were a lot of mechs on my screen.

[Foust]

Mechs used:
Jenner, Centurion, Cataphract, Atlas

There is a advantage in the ability to see over some cover while remaining hidden, or to "peeking" around the edge of terrain. I did notice what I will called "assisted aiming" where the reticle snaps to a object or terrain feature. That was difficult to play around.

Playing in 3PV I felt detached from the rest of my team. That could be a symptom of the lack of familiarity playing in 3PV however.

I am torn. On on side, I am disappointed that 3PV is going in. I did not sign up for that. On the other, CW will be all 1PV and I will be able to queue in 1PV only. So zero difference to me.

Plus if it truly brings more players into the game, and they bring money, I can keep playing it.

[P4riah1]

One more thing: I would like to echo the posts about hit ditection issues with LRMs and ballistics. I was having issues with my Gauss, and I think I got rear torso cored from LRMs from the front once. Also ballistics have very different visual models for the bullets. They look like glitches, honestly. Weird 3d models without much in the way of effect covering them. Gauss was almost impossible to see on Alpine, 'cause it was jsut a small white dot.

[MuonNeutrino]

Quote

• Which Mech(s) did you use for this test?
  
• What improvements would you like to see with 3^rd person view?
  
• Any additional comments or concerns.
  

Mechs used: Spider, centurion, blackjack, catapult, stalker.

Improvements: scrap this implementation and start over. Failing that, remove the ability to switch view modes while in game, bring back the battlemap in 3pv while removing other UI elements instead, and please find some way to prevent vets from abusing this to gain vision advantages.

Additional comments:

I can understand what you were going for with this implementation of 3pv. And, in a lot of ways, you even pulled it off. There are a variety of drawbacks that actually do act to balance the advantages in many ways. At first glance it seems as if it manages to combine the best of both worlds by giving a viable third person camera which does not, overall, have a glaring advantage over 1pv.

Unfortunately, despite this, the actual way those drawbacks work makes this a quite flawed system. It does have the best of both worlds in some ways, but in a way such that it simultaneously has the worst of both, as well.

The problem has several aspects.

First, the advantages of 3pv lie in different areas of the game from the disadvantages. This might seem like a no-brainer and unremarkable, and indeed it would be except for the fact that you can freely toggle between the two modes on the fly. This means that a savvy player can reap the advantages of both view modes while mostly avoiding the disadvantages. For example, 3pv gives you superior vision at the cost of making it more difficult to aim. If you could not switch, this would simply be a tradeoff you'd have to make. Since you can switch, though, you can do something like run up behind a ridge, switch to 3pv to look over it and gather a bunch of scouting information, and then switch back to 1pv and move on. Sure, the enemy can see your drone. They now know that *something* is behind that ridge, but not what. They would also have known you were there under the old 1pv system as well, of course, but the difference here is that not only would they have been able to tell what you were, they would also have been able to shoot at you! 3pv enables people to see around obstacles without being able to be shot - even if the drone makes it so that you can't see them without them seeing you, this is still a significant advantage, and because you can simply switch out of 3pv when you're done you don't have to suffer the corresponding disadvantages.

Second, the disadvantages of 3pv are severe enough that, in my opinion, they outweigh the advantages for the one group this was supposed to help most - newbies who get disoriented while trying to move. This is supposed to allow new players to more easily tell where their legs are pointing and more easily grasp the distinction between leg facing and torso facing. However, on many mechs the camera is positioned such that the legs are mostly or totally off the screen with the default FoV, which completely defeats the purpose. Similarly, they are unlikely to be able to take full advantage of the viewing angle advantages 3pv offers immediately due to inexperience with the importance of mechanics like scouting or ridge-humping/poptarting. Meanwhile, the areas where 3pv is a drawback are *also* areas where new players often struggle. For example, they are already generally bad enough shots even with the fully responsive non-jumping reticle of 1pv - veterans will probably learn to compensate for it fairly quickly, but newbs in 3pv won't be able to hit the broad side of a barn from inside it. For another, new players are notorious for having extremely poor situational awareness, very easily losing track of enemies and allies and blundering into bad situations, and 3pv removes the single most important situational awareness tool - the battlemap. Again, vets will be able to compensate, but you might as well blindfold the newbs at that point. And, adding insult to injury, the battlemap is *also* the primary indicator of relative torso and leg facing - in order to add its own (often unreliable) indicator of leg heading, 3pv removes another! 3pv's drawbacks hit new players harder than vets, and its advantages are less useful to them.

Finally, these two different problems interact in a rather intractable manner. The most obvious solution to the first problem is to remove or highly restrict the ability to hot-swap your view mode during a game. However, this exacerbates the second problem, because now new players are forced to suffer the disadvantages of 3pv for the entire match as well as never gaining any experience with one of the most important UI elements - the battlemap. On the other hand, if you try to address the second issue, you make the first one worse because there are fewer drawbacks to accidentally getting caught in 3pv.

Ultimately, I would rate this as a bad implementation. It is too easy for vets to game this system to gain advantages, yet simultaneously it is too clunky and has too many drawbacks to actually significantly benefit new players, and this is totally leaving apart issues like the jerky camera, wonky arm lock, and further splitting of the player base. This should not go live as it currently stands.

Edited by MuonNeutrino, 01 August 2013 - 05:39 PM.

[Redshift2k5]

Niko Snow, on 31 July 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

Please comment below with the following:

• Which Mech(s) did you use for this test?
  
• What improvements would you like to see with 3^rd person view?
  
• Any additional comments or concerns.

Catapult, Jagermech, Quickdraw

I feel the camera is "too high" in many cases. In particular it feels much too high when piloting a Catapult, the arms are fine but all of the torso weaponry is just much too far below the line of sight, especially difficult since there is no indicator in the HUD if a weapon is behind intervening terrain or not (which is an issue in 1pv as well of course). not so bad on the Quickdraw but very difficult with the Catapult.

Did it help with visual awareness as to the position of your torso to your legs?

No. If this is supposed to "help" with torso and leg movement, I should be able to see my legs in a functional capacity. All mechs I used did not display the mech below the waist at all.

I feel that the leg/torso angle indicator from the minimap should still be present in 3pv. Not the map itself, just that layer highlighting your mech's current twist angle.

---

Bonus feedback! 12v12 still inflict drastic negative performance on my computer, even with everything low and the game set to it's lowest resolution.

[Cache]

I'm a 1st person view player whenever possible. I found 3rd person to be a little disorienting. I saw video from others where the legs of their Mech were barely visible, thus rendering the need for 3PV "to help new players learn to orient their feet" a little pointless... unless FoV is set back (or lowered). Mine is at 80 and I was able to see down to my Atlas' ankles in 3PV.

Also, I ran into an FPS issue. My normal FPS is around 50. While piloting my Founder's Atlas (Coconut Monkey equipped) for two drops it fell to 30-35 FPS. I tried a Jenner [S] the next drop (no cockpit items) and FPS went back up around 50. I have never experienced this on the regular server but have heard others complain of it.