260 replies to this topic

[Degalus]

Well with all this hate and flaming vs seismic, why we dont put it out of the game and use the old radar out of the old MWO titels? U know the one where u see everytime everyone in range beside of offline or passiv sensor mechs?
XD that would create a great flamewars in the forum.
(funny that in old CB times so many players complained because the radar dont work like in the old games)

[One Medic Army]

Degalus, on 03 August 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

Well with all this hate and flaming vs seismic, why we dont put it out of the game and use the old radar out of the old MWO titels? U know the one where u see everytime everyone in range beside of offline or passiv sensor mechs?
XD that would create a great flamewars in the forum.
(funny that in old CB times so many players complained because the radar dont work like in the old games)

The bit that annoys people is the seeing through terrain (hills, buildings), not the seeing behind you bit.
Seeing through terrain should be a BAP feature, it should be ~150-180m range, and it should be countered by ECM.

[Foxfire]

That would actually make the BAP useful for something other than ECM countering.

[Degalus]

One Medic Army, on 03 August 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

The bit that annoys people is the seeing through terrain (hills, buildings), not the seeing behind you bit.
Seeing through terrain should be a BAP feature, it should be ~150-180m range, and it should be countered by ECM.

Yea but what i dont get is why seismic is such a deamon for mwo players. In the old mw games there was always a real working radar and noone complained about that.

[One Medic Army]

Degalus, on 03 August 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

Yea but what i dont get is why seismic is such a deamon for mwo players. In the old mw games there was always a real working radar and noone complained about that.

Serious question here (since I haven't played any of the older games) did the old 360 radar look through buildings?
Also, did the old games have light/medium mechs that weren't garbage?

[Butane9000]

Your argument OP is that seismic is a fantastic tool for lights.

The problem is it's abused by EVERY OTHER CHASSIS and it kills battlefield tactics by giving away your position long before you reach your opponent.

It needed nerfing, maybe it could have been nerfed another way but it's in no ways the end state for seismic. They could end up changing it again later.

[Degalus]

One Medic Army, on 03 August 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Serious question here (since I haven't played any of the older games) did the old 360 radar look through buildings?
Also, did the old games have light/medium mechs that weren't garbage?

The old Radar was seeing everything beside of passiv sensor or offline mechs. Lights and mediums in the old titles? ... would say mwo make a good job in making them more useful. In the old games they was only canon fodder.

[One Medic Army]

Degalus, on 03 August 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

The old Radar was seeing everything beside of passiv sensor or offline mechs. Lights and mediums in the old titles? ... would say mwo make a good job in making them more useful. In the old games they was only canon fodder.

I'd gladly go passive on my radar if it made me harder to spot when I'm trying to be sneaky, but it's not currently an option.

[Degalus]

One Medic Army, on 03 August 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

I'd gladly go passive on my radar if it made me harder to spot when I'm trying to be sneaky, but it's not currently an option.

Passiv doesnt make u to a ninja ^^ u are detectable in a radius of 500m but u are also have only 500m radarrange. (in old mw titles)

[Ghostrider0067]

Viktor Drake, on 03 August 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

This one is easy. Seismic doesn't read outgoing waves, in fact since they are outgoing, they don't reach the sensor at all. It only reads incoming waves or those generated by other mechs. IFF is used in the Filtering process so all sensor readings from known friendly mechs are filtered leaving only unknown reading. These unknown reading are then labled by the computer as Enemy.

Radar kind of works the same way. The Radar antenne projects waves outward and only reads the waves that are reflected back to the recieve i.e. hard objects that are likely aircraft.

Sonar is also the same. Sound is sent through water until it hits a solid object or denser water at which point, it reflects back to the sonar reciever.

In all honesty, I was being somewhat facetious in my posting. I would assume that they'd have figured out the technology to filter out the signals by then, don't you think? Still, I think remaining stationary would make the most sense and provide the absolute cleanest signal.

I'm very well aware of how IFF and radar works. I dealt with both on a daily basis as part of my job while stationed on a guided missile destroyer. Your simplified view was fine, however. Carry on.

[Khobai]

Seismic needed to be nerfed. However it was nerfed in the wrong way. You do not nerf the range of a sensor module. Detecting enemy mechs at range is the entire point of sensor modules. So nerfing the only reason its worth using is just asinine. Its like nerfing the heat on PPCs instead of the projectile speed or adding boating penalties for large lasers/large pulse lasers for no reason. It makes no sense. Why would you do any of that?

The problem with seismic wasnt that it allowed you to see mechs at 400m away. The problem with seismic is that it wasnt restricted to only light and medium mechs being able to use it like it shouldve been. Heavys and Assaults should not be able to use sensor modules anymore than lights should be able to use combat modules. Because its not their role. The only weight class that should be able to use almost every module is mediums because versatility is their main advantage.

TLDR: rolewarfare needs to restrict modules to certain weight classes to better enforce the roles of each weightclass.

Edited by Khobai, 03 August 2013 - 04:13 PM.

[Deathlike]

One Medic Army, on 03 August 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Serious question here (since I haven't played any of the older games) did the old 360 radar look through buildings?
Also, did the old games have light/medium mechs that weren't garbage?

In MW2/MW3/MW4, the answer is yes to "see through buildings".

With the latter question... in MW3, yes. In MW4, heavier mechs were generally preferably for a strictly TD gameplay, but light mechs were somewhat OK for TA/TAA and optimal for CTF... I'm not entirely sure.

For MW3, radar was oddly "infinite" in multiplayer (unless you shut down). The thing was, there was no benefit to shutting down and dying meant you had to spend a lot of time to get back to the middle of combat.

Khobai, on 03 August 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Seismic needed to be nerfed. However it was nerfed in the wrong way. You do not nerf the range of a sensor module. Detecting enemy mechs at range is the entire point of sensor modules. So nerfing the only reason its worth using is just asinine. Its like nerfing the heat on PPCs instead of the projectile speed or adding boating penalties for large lasers/large pulse lasers for no reason. It makes no sense. Why would you do any of that?

The problem with seismic wasnt that it allowed you to see mechs at 400m away. The problem with seismic is that it wasnt restricted to only light and medium mechs being able to use it like it shouldve been. Heavys and Assaults should not be able to use sensor modules anymore than lights should be able to use combat modules. Because its not their role. The only weight class that should be able to use almost every module is mediums because versatility is their main advantage.

TLDR: rolewarfare needs to restrict modules to certain weight classes to better enforce the roles of each weightclass.

I wouldn't restrict the modules to a particular weight class... rather change the effectiveness by class and/or vs other classes. That is a more fair way to go about it.

Edited by Deathlike, 03 August 2013 - 05:35 PM.

[Mycrus]

Somebody is missing their favorite wall hax...

[Skyfaller]

Khobai, on 03 August 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Seismic needed to be nerfed. However it was nerfed in the wrong way. You do not nerf the range of a sensor module. Detecting enemy mechs at range is the entire point of sensor modules. So nerfing the only reason its worth using is just asinine. Its like nerfing the heat on PPCs instead of the projectile speed or adding boating penalties for large lasers/large pulse lasers for no reason. It makes no sense. Why would you do any of that?

The problem with seismic wasnt that it allowed you to see mechs at 400m away. The problem with seismic is that it wasnt restricted to only light and medium mechs being able to use it like it shouldve been. Heavys and Assaults should not be able to use sensor modules anymore than lights should be able to use combat modules. Because its not their role. The only weight class that should be able to use almost every module is mediums because versatility is their main advantage.

TLDR: rolewarfare needs to restrict modules to certain weight classes to better enforce the roles of each weightclass.

No, actually they should made the seismic detect only when your mech was static and could only detect mechs that are moving.

That alone makes it a great scouting tool for lights that can zip to location and 'sense' the ground for contacts. Heavier mechs can also benefit from its situational awareness but not so much as a light because these mechs NEED to keep moving since they are so slow..to flank, advance, get to cover, shoot, etc.

[Khobai]

Quote

No, actually they should made the seismic detect only when your mech was static and could only detect mechs that are moving.

Thats not enough to balance it. Especially since being stationary for a heavy or assault isnt much of a burden. Most of the time defensive gunlines are stationary anyway, waiting for the enemy to leave cover, so they can snipe them.

It would be better if only lights and mediums could use sensor modules. Since it reinforces their roles as scouts/spotters/etc...

[Lord of All]

Siesmic should be an advantage to a defending force. As both forces could not have occupied the same territory to plant siesmic detectors. This should be part of the broader game setup. But I'm sure things like this are not even being considered as this company seems to have no forward looking plans.

[Chemie]

Khobai, on 03 August 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Seismic needed to be nerfed. However it was nerfed in the wrong way. You do not nerf the range of a sensor module. Detecting enemy mechs at range is the entire point of sensor modules. So nerfing the only reason its worth using is just asinine. Its like nerfing the heat on PPCs instead of the projectile speed or adding boating penalties for large lasers/large pulse lasers for no reason. It makes no sense. Why would you do any of that?

The problem with seismic wasnt that it allowed you to see mechs at 400m away. The problem with seismic is that it wasnt restricted to only light and medium mechs being able to use it like it shouldve been. Heavys and Assaults should not be able to use sensor modules anymore than lights should be able to use combat modules. Because its not their role. The only weight class that should be able to use almost every module is mediums because versatility is their main advantage.

TLDR: rolewarfare needs to restrict modules to certain weight classes to better enforce the roles of each weightclass.

or limit to detection when you are not moving....and allow mechs to go below a certain speed and not be detected so you can still flank.

lazy implementation and lazy nerf.

[Aim64C]

Degalus, on 03 August 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

Yea but what i dont get is why seismic is such a deamon for mwo players. In the old mw games there was always a real working radar and noone complained about that.

Radars don't have the ability to see through terrain, and are unreliable at detecting things on the other side of a building (you -can- do it, but it depends upon the construction of the building and what band of radar you're using).

MWO is more 'real' in this regard. No magic all-seeing sensors.

The idea behind BAP in tabletop was that it was a more literal application of radar technology and could penetrate foliage and other types of concealment (not cover). It also allowed a mech to detect ECM presence.

Anyway...

Seismic simply shouldn't exist on mechs. Certainly not as a module. It does more for situational awareness than BAP (a physical component on your mech that requires tonnage).

If you wanted to have a seismic station that you could capture and use to relay vague seismic activity around the map - then that would be one thing (or if you had it as a support vehicle as a tertiary defense objective, or something)... but seismic as it's implemented is just a bad idea.

The fact that such a module is only available to players who have played a considerable amount of time (to gain hideous amounts of general xp) or paid a considerable sum to convert mech xp to the general variety is even more worrying.

In a game where the "problem" has been "alpha-warrior" - giving players the ability to know when something is about to pop around a corner without a coordinated spotting effort by team members is just... insane.

It simply comes across as the game developers saying: "Don't look at us... we just work here. We were told to make a MechWarrior game... why do you have to be ****** about this?"

I mean... seriously... "We think mechs are dying too fast and we need to cut down on the amount of damage players can do with one press of the button."

"How do we do that?"

"Well, let's start grouping weapons we feel are too powerful together and give them some kind of heat multiplier..."

"Good idea!"

"But before we do that, let's give them the ability to see through walls with seismic."

"Why not MagScan?"

"That will be a Clan mech exclusive. Anyway - it doesn't allow them to see through walls, just know exactly when someone is trying to sneak up behind them or going to poke their head out from behind a wall. People will be caching in MW-credits left and right to speed up their ability to be able to zap that guy they've been chasing down."

"Oh, yeah, that will be a great idea. But we need to nerf the large pulse laser. People will abuse the hell out of that with the seismic module."

"Ooo... yeah, you're right. Just to be on the safe side, the large laser should be there, too."

I seriously wonder how accurate my 'meeting parodies' are, sometimes.

[Erata]

Seismic exacerbated the long range meta by giving slow snipers an early warning to prepare with.
It absolutely needed to be nerfed.

Now they just need to buff pulse weapons further or something to bring back the brawling game and fix SRM hit detection and we'll be sitting pretty(baby).

[aseth]

It's still incredibly useful, and remains the first module I put in my Jenners. Or anything, for that matter.