260 replies to this topic

[Ghostrider0067]

Riddle me this: Why would seismic sensors work, AT ALL, if you're moving and thus generating seismic waves of your own to clutter the signal and thereby lead to a false reading? I suppose that seeing as how this game takes place far into the future that some kind of technology to eliminate your own signal would more than likely exist, but speculation of future tech is just that.

While I don't use it, the only clear option for it to work as it should would require you to remain stationary, albeit briefly, in order to pick up the signal of any oncoming mechs. Seeing as how some maps are wide open, remaining still could lead to a quick end; however, most maps offer some sort of cover that would enable you to get your reading, utilize your speed advantage to bug out before those enemies know you're onto them, and live to fight on.

[Enieles]

Dock Steward, on 02 August 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

I don't scout all the often, but the scouts in my Merc Group typically spot targets well beyond what even the pre-nerf Seismic could detect. Point being, Seismic was never all that great of a tool for lights. And it certainly didn't kill flanking. Flanking and taking the enemy by surprise is nice, but flanking is more about having your forward group maintain the enemy's focus while the flankers shoot them in the rear. Seismic doesn't stop that at all. If the enemy uses Seismic to detect the flankers at 250m, they're still left with the decision of who they want to have shoot them in the back, the forward group or the flankers.

Exactly.

[Mystere]

Roland, on 02 August 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

Most of that "use" is just in your head.

Hardly. I have successfully used it to appear as a threat and make enemy heavies move to a less favorable position, all the while not letting them know I was just a light armed only with machine guns.

[One Medic Army]

Mystere, on 02 August 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Hardly. I have successfully used it to appear as a threat and make enemy heavies move to a less favorable position, all the while not letting them know I was just a light armed only with machine guns.

Given most players, you could have run up to them and they would have gladly played "chase the squirrel" even knowing what you were armed with...

[Co Ward]

Sam Donelly, on 02 August 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Agreed, seismic should require you to be stationary to work at all.

this post belies your ignorance, if you have a seismic sensor in your mech all you would need to do is discount your own footfalls since the mech knows when it hits the ground and BAM! your own waves are negated and anything else is accepted as a positive reading. basic programming ftw.

[Xie Belvoule]

Viktor Drake, on 02 August 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Well you all got your way and we got a nerf to seismic. Congratuations

[Mystere]

One Medic Army, on 02 August 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

Given most players, you could have run up to them and they would have gladly played "chase the squirrel" even knowing what you were armed with...

Well, I've been almost totally ignored several times before while being that pitifully armed squirrel. The seismic module gave me another option.

Also, a bottled-up enemy team taking cover from intense fire from one direction sometimes feel extremely vulnerable and eventually panic when they see a threat coming from an unexpected direction.

[Rippthrough]

Shoot them in the arse, they still panic, only now you don't have to take 5 minutes to skirt the entire map to do it, only to find half your team dead already when you do.

[Unbound Inferno]

Homeless Bill, on 02 August 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad. Burn Seismic at the stake.

Yeah I agree, but I still mount it.

[Psikez]

Thanks for the grats, GG bro, gg.

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 02 August 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Suggestion: Make seismic work in a fashion that offers diminishing returns the large the mech it is mounted on. Motionless all mechs = 450m Lights = 400m Medium =300m Heavies = 250m Assaults = 200m The theory behind this for people who care about that sort of thing is that the heavier footsteps of a Assault would mask the seismic return thus reducing its range. The lighter footsteps of a light mech don't interfere as much so you get a longer range. If a mech is completely motionless then it always has maximum range. This would bring the seismic sensor back to being able to be used as a recon tool by light mechs while still retaining the range reduction when used by heavier mechs.

I would have sympathized with you, except mechs accelerate and decelerate too quick with the mech tree--thus easily able to abuse the mechanic. Remove those 2 bonuses from mech tree and I will reconsider.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 August 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[El Bandito]

Ghostrider0067, on 02 August 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

Riddle me this: Why would seismic sensors work, AT ALL, if you're moving and thus generating seismic waves of your own to clutter the signal and thereby lead to a false reading? I suppose that seeing as how this game takes place far into the future that some kind of technology to eliminate your own signal would more than likely exist, but speculation of future tech is just that. While I don't use it, the only clear option for it to work as it should would require you to remain stationary, albeit briefly, in order to pick up the signal of any oncoming mechs. Seeing as how some maps are wide open, remaining still could lead to a quick end; however, most maps offer some sort of cover that would enable you to get your reading, utilize your speed advantage to bug out before those enemies know you're onto them, and live to fight on.

Don't you know there are tons of seismic sensors planted in the map already by those who explored it? Mechs are simply bouncing off the sensor feeds from a geo-satellite.

Even if you are moving around, your own seismic waves will do nothing to mask the enemy's unless you two are really close to each other in proximity.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 August 2013 - 05:12 PM.

[VikingFarmer]

Anyone who says seismic is a necessary mod is using it as a crutch. I bought one of them, and move it from mech to mech when I find a new favorite I'm going to play for a while, Even before the nerf i switch mechs so much half the time i didn't even have seismic on the mech. Seismic really made no impact on my game play, I use my eyeballs and common sense to find the enemy not a little red dot. The only time it was really handy was when trying to run down lights.

[Lostdragon]

Dock Steward, on 02 August 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

I don't scout all the often, but the scouts in my Merc Group typically spot targets well beyond what even the pre-nerf Seismic could detect. Point being, Seismic was never all that great of a tool for lights. And it certainly didn't kill flanking. Flanking and taking the enemy by surprise is nice, but flanking is more about having your forward group maintain the enemy's focus while the flankers shoot them in the rear. Seismic doesn't stop that at all. If the enemy uses Seismic to detect the flankers at 250m, they're still left with the decision of who they want to have shoot them in the back, the forward group or the flankers.

I bet a lot of the snipers and missile boats I meet on my Jenner wish they had seismic so they could have seen me coming before I melt their rear CT. It is a huge advantage. I think it's OP, but I also like to win, so I use the equipment that gives me the best chance of winning.

[Umbra8]

Posting this again:

Seismic is one of the worst implemented ideas since the original ECM jesus box. It absolutely absolves you of situational awareness and destroys the ability of lights or fast mediums to orchestrate flanking manoeuvres or surprise attacks. Worse, if they don't have the module themselves it becomes ridiculously easy to turn the tables and flank and isolate the skirmisher. Moving into enemy territory to harass missile boats or sow confusion is already a high risk play and this module pretty much removes it's viability, without telling you it's been removed until you're a smoking pile of slag wondering how they all knew exactly where you were going to show up. It cheapens flanking plays without requiring any risk or penalty to the opposing team or even giving any counterplay options to the skirmisher.

This video should give you an idea of just why this thing is wrong:

http://www.penny-arc...de/counter-play

Even if it were free and everyone had it installed it would still cheapen play. Everyone would snipe or blob-brawl as the risk/reward for end-runs or flanks would be too punitive.

Edited by Umbra8, 02 August 2013 - 07:44 PM.

[Mystere]

Umbra8, on 02 August 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

Posting this again:

Seismic is one of the worst implemented ideas since the original ECM jesus box. It absolutely absolves you of situational awareness and destroys the ability of lights or fast mediums to orchestrate flanking manoeuvres or surprise attacks. Worse, if they don't have the module themselves it becomes ridiculously easy to turn the tables and flank and isolate the skirmisher. Moving into enemy territory to harass missile boats or sow confusion is already a high risk play and this module pretty much removes it's viability, without telling you it's been removed until you're a smoking pile of slag wondering how they all knew exactly where you were going to show up. It cheapens flanking plays without requiring any risk or penalty to the opposing team or even giving any counterplay options to the skirmisher.

This video should give you an idea of just why this thing is wrong:

http://www.penny-arc...de/counter-play

Even if it were free and everyone had it installed it would still cheapen play. Everyone would snipe or blob-brawl as the risk/reward for end-runs or flanks would be too punitive.

Link broken

[Skyfaller]

Ozora Wolfsaber, on 02 August 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Anyone who says seismic is a necessary mod is using it as a crutch. I bought one of them, and move it from mech to mech when I find a new favorite I'm going to play for a while, Even before the nerf i switch mechs so much half the time i didn't even have seismic on the mech. Seismic really made no impact on my game play, I use my eyeballs and common sense to find the enemy not a little red dot. The only time it was really handy was when trying to run down lights.

The sad thing is, this logic is flawed.

Old seismic out to 400m 'giving away' your light mech? LULZ.

How fast does that light travel? Oh ..right. It clocks 130 speed.

How long does it take for said mech to come up and touch you? Less than 3 seconds.

Seismic was NEVER a defense against light mechs.

It was a scouting tool to detect mechs behind objects. Since the data was not shared to other mechs it could not be used as an omniscient scouting tool. Aka a light could not park behind a wall and share its seismic data with the team.

What it WAS good for was for light mechs to give early warning of enemy team location as it scouted the map. Being able to detect something in the adjacent valley is priceless.

It was useful for heavies and assaults to get a few seconds warning of another mech coming up behind them or to the flank..but given most of those mechs carry weapons that can hit at 500m or more that was not much of a warning.

As it is now, seismic is utterly useless as both a scouting tool and as a self-defense warning tool. Range too short. Way too short.

[Xmith]

Bernard Matthaios, on 02 August 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

While I liked the idea of seismic. I hated it when it went live, I really tried to enjoy it. However running around in a light then being cored when turning a corner was and still is BS. No matter how they tweak it its still BS. If seismic is to be left in game there should be a ninja shoe module.

if you had seismic, you would not have been suprised when rounding the corner. However you also said you had tried it and didn't enjoy it. If you actually had seismic, you would had known there were mechs around the corner.

[EXSODER]

-Raises a hand.-
...um.
-Fidgets.-
Maybe a counter-seismic? -Ducks in anticipation of stones being thrown.-
Sure, sure, you can howl about how it's broken from the start or whether it's useful, but maybe there can be a counter to it like how the BAP cancels ECM in a certain proximity...of course, it isn't good to solve every broken module by adding a counter module, but of course the possibility is there in a worse-case scenario...
I originally thought, well, what about a consumable which fires spreads of concussion grenades to confuse the sensors - and then realized how...STUPID that is.
There are things, though, that can be done to counter it...I don't use it, because I use the same tried and true methods I used to (identify which Mechs have shifted their attention to me, maneuvering, making unexpected movements to make people shoot X amount of meters away from where I actually wind up, etc).
In reality, even if you told the system to account for your own footfalls, with such heavy components making footfalls against the ground, you're going to get sensor echoes here and there. Your lumbering Highlander might make the one step that happens to finally shake apart a rock three meters underground, and that would show up on any sensor...not only that, but this is probably happening a lot depending upon the terrain...
Anyway, this probably hasn't added much of anything that can be used gameplay-wise, but it's an interesting discussion nonetheless...

[Mystere]

Xmith, on 02 August 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

if you had seismic, you would not have been suprised when rounding the corner. However you also said you had tried it and didn't enjoy it. If you actually had seismic, you would had known there were mechs around the corner.

Well, unless they weren't moving and were actually setting a trap.