260 replies to this topic

[Benden]

All was said already in the previous posts.
Personally I've felt that pre patch Seismics were a bit OP.
Just reducing the range is not the best answer. Maybe they just did this because it was the easiest and fastest way to nerf it.
I miss the old radar view with passive and active sensors.
Devs are supposed to implement passive sensor "soon" so maybe they'll tweak seismic too :stronger signal/longer range from heavier mechs, no signal from standing target, no sensor from running mech etc. ?
On that matter I'm confident on PGI next moves, well I hope.

[Nutlink]

If it was based around mech weights, I'd be OK with that. More than OK, it would actually make sense. Maybe something like 180m max for 20 ton mechs and going up by 10 meters every 5 tons, topping off around what, 340m for 100 tonners? Reduce effectiveness while moving would also be nice, as in around a 20% reduction at walking speeds and 40% while running full tilt.

Random numbers being pulled out of my rear, but I'd love if it worked this way, and judging from most of the posts in this thread so would a good chunk of the community.

[Dimento Graven]

BOTA49, on 04 August 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

If it was based around mech weights, I'd be OK with that. More than OK, it would actually make sense. Maybe something like 180m max for 20 ton mechs and going up by 10 meters every 5 tons, topping off around what, 340m for 100 tonners? Reduce effectiveness while moving would also be nice, as in around a 20% reduction at walking speeds and 40% while running full tilt.

Random numbers being pulled out of my rear, but I'd love if it worked this way, and judging from most of the posts in this thread so would a good chunk of the community.

No, I don't think that's sufficient. It should be based on weight and what the 'mech is doing. If a 'mech is moving slow enough, it shouldn't be detectable over range, however a 25 ton 'mech doing 150kph is going to making some serious seismic noise. After all, that 5 ton garbage truck that ROLLS down your street/alley at least once a week, at only 25 mph max, you can feel those vibrations readily enough. You can imagine even more so for the 'mech that's at least 5 times that weight, STOMPING around at, at least, 5 times the speed is going to cause some SERIOUS vibrations.

So no, there's no such thing as a "stealthy" 'mech, period. Get over it, move on, go cry on some other forum.

What I don't get is how PGI misses the obvious balance factors, maps like Terra Therma and Caustic Valley, volcanic maps and therefore by default very seismicly active maps, should have reduced/negated/confusing seismic sensing.

THAT would make more sense than anything else PGI could have done.

[Rippthrough]

That 12 ton garbage truck that runs down my road doesn't make enough vibration to feel it even stood next to it. Maybe yours are broken?

[Nutlink]

Dimento Graven, on 04 August 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

No, I don't think that's sufficient. It should be based on weight and what the 'mech is doing. If a 'mech is moving slow enough, it shouldn't be detectable over range, however a 25 ton 'mech doing 150kph is going to making some serious seismic noise. After all, that 5 ton garbage truck that ROLLS down your street/alley at least once a week, at only 25 mph max, you can feel those vibrations readily enough. You can imagine even more so for the 'mech that's at least 5 times that weight, STOMPING around at, at least, 5 times the speed is going to cause some SERIOUS vibrations.

So no, there's no such thing as a "stealthy" 'mech, period. Get over it, move on, go cry on some other forum.

What I don't get is how PGI misses the obvious balance factors, maps like Terra Therma and Caustic Valley, volcanic maps and therefore by default very seismicly active maps, should have reduced/negated/confusing seismic sensing.

THAT would make more sense than anything else PGI could have done.

Yeah, except you're comparing real life with a video game. Based on the future. With giant stompy robots. That has had a ruleset for around 30 years. Which has stealth options for said stompy robots.

You shouldn't have 100% 360 degree awareness by any means, and yet basing it around realism would be overly time consuming and futile. Get over it, move on, go cry on some other forum.

Edited by BOTA49, 04 August 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

BOTA49, on 04 August 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Yeah, except you're comparing real life with a video game. Based on the future. With giant stompy robots. That has had a ruleset for around 30 years. Which has stealth options for said stompy robots.

You shouldn't have 100% 360 degree awareness by any means, and yet basing it around realism would be overly time consuming and futile. Get over it, move on, go cry on some other forum.

You still don't have 100% 360 degree awareness even with Siesmic. You still have no clue what mechs the red dots represent and they don't tell you the facing of the enemy mech. You can use skill and experience to intuit those things such as observing speed and direction but the sensor doesn't give you that information. Additional even at 400m it was rather limited in range when you consider you can be targeted and hit at 1000+ meters.

Also since you are unaware of this. In all the battletech lore, mechs had 360 degree sensor suites. They had full 360 degree view capability as well as full 360 degree radar that would pick up and more importantly, target enemy mechs in any direction. They also had long range seismic detection capabilities that had enough range that allowed mechwarriors a few minutes to react to approaching enemy mechs. Oh and lets not forget about magnetics which detected large moving metal objects. I believe that one was called MagScan though I am a little hazy.

[Dimento Graven]

Rippthrough, on 04 August 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

That 12 ton garbage truck that runs down my road doesn't make enough vibration to feel it even stood next to it. Maybe yours are broken?

Well, perhaps you're just a lot less observant than I am, or maybe the terrain you on doesn't allow vibrations to flow as readily as they do in my neighborhood. The fact is if you pay attention, window panes are probably rattling, pictures hanging on the wall may be vibrating, liquid in a glass sitting on a coffee table may be shivering.

The fact is there are measurable vibrations from all vehicles, enough so that certain experiments and measuring devices require isolation and insulation from the random vibrations from nearby traffic, freight trains, or just the 'normal' sort of stuff that comes from equipment in the buildings.

BOTA49, on 04 August 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Yeah, except you're comparing real life with a video game. Based on the future. With giant stompy robots. That has had a ruleset for around 30 years. Which has stealth options for said stompy robots.

You shouldn't have 100% 360 degree awareness by any means, and yet basing it around realism would be overly time consuming and futile. Get over it, move on, go cry on some other forum.

I don't recall the "stealth" options allowing a 'mech moving at speed to be completely invisible, unseen, and 100% undetectable. In fact, I remember the exact opposite with MAD sensors, rear firing weapons with 360 degree view screens, and the like 'mechs actually had a 360 degree sensing. Only by taking advantage of significant heat sources, metallic anomalies, and the like could a 'mech even be partially 'cloaked'.

The only "stealthed" 'mech is one that was not powered up enough to do anything but run passive sensors.

So YOU are the one that needs to get over it, etc., yadda yadda.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 04 August 2013 - 04:04 PM.

[Crazycajun]

i dont think it got hit hard enough ..

i still think it need be reduced 50m more

[Jesus Box]

ObsidianSpectre, on 02 August 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

The best way to improve seismic is to remove it completely.

That's what we all said about ECM but they didn't do that either.

[Dimento Graven]

Crazycajun, on 04 August 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

i dont think it got hit hard enough ..

i still think it need be reduced 50m more

Jesus Box, on 04 August 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

That's what we all said about ECM but they didn't do that either.

Spoken like people who want one dimensional game play... Don't want to have to change their mode of play for something that makes the game a lot more immersive and strategic... The same sort of people who believe that militaries would fly 200 light years across the galaxy to go park 5 minutes on a square.

Gamers who think progressing a gaming environment means that developers should be taking features OUT of games... Wow... I guess the transition from Microsoft Solitaire must have been traumatic.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 04 August 2013 - 04:15 PM.

[Aim64C]

Dimento Graven, on 04 August 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

Gamers who think progressing a gaming environment means that developers should be taking features OUT of games... Wow... I guess the transition from Microsoft Solitaire must have been traumatic.

There are 'features' that simply don't belong.

I want my PPC to behave like real particle cannons and be able to shoot through buildings with little loss of energy (yes, real particle cannons can do this - that's why they are used in the removal of brain tumors - you can precisely 'drop' energy into a small region of space through the densest of obstacles).

More importantly - I want them to be able to bypass armor, completely, and do damage straight to the internals of a mech (again, real particle physics allows for this).

That's a pretty cool feature, wouldn't you say?

Would force people to think about their builds and their play style.

What? It would be overpowered?

Gee... I guess someone should learn how to adapt to their environment.

The problem with Seismic is multi-fold.

First - it, somehow, works while mech's are jump-jetting into the air, falling, or in a full-on sprint. To say: "That doesn't make any sense" is an understatement.

Second - you get it for "free." Any mech can carry it. It functions throughout the match and does not need to be repurchased. It does not -enhance- equipment already present, it -adds- functionality that surpasses components with tonnage and space requirements (BAP).

Third - such a component is restricted to those who have played the game enough to have the gxp on hand to unlock it, or the mech-xp to convert at financial cost. Unlike ECM - which is a function of the mech and available to anyone who purchases an ECM capable mech; this ability to 'see through walls' is only available to people who have played an average of 400 decent matches, or so, to unlock (unless they pay).

It's a module that should be getting the same outcry that consumables were.

http://mwomercs.com/...e-an-mwo-how-to

You want information warfare features? There you go.

[Skadi]

Homeless Bill, on 02 August 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad. Burn Seismic at the stake.

Homeless Bill, officially my favorite poster.

You get my(Atlai) seal of approval

[Umbra8]

Dimento Graven, on 04 August 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

Spoken like people who want one dimensional game play... Don't want to have to change their mode of play for something that makes the game a lot more immersive and strategic... The same sort of people who believe that militaries would fly 200 light years across the galaxy to go park 5 minutes on a square.

Gamers who think progressing a gaming environment means that developers should be taking features OUT of games... Wow... I guess the transition from Microsoft Solitaire must have been traumatic.

As has been mentioned numerous times before, seismic removes complex game elements instead of adding them. It penalizes styles of play that are already high-risk such that they are no longer worth attempting. If everyone had seismic we'd all be sniping or blob-brawling and that's it.

If you want multi-dimensional play you need a system that is more universal in it's application (the gxp and cbill requirements make this a late game module) which opens up play styles or tactics instead of shutting them down. There is no strategy inherent in this module. It's a crutch for those who would rather not scout that passage or try to predict enemy flanking maneuvers or god forbid look behind them and instead just want a wall hack that will do it all for them.

Good riddance, I hope it'***** again with the nerf bat for the sake of gameplay if nothing else.

[Roadbuster]

Volomon, on 02 August 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

I've never like SEISMIC really, I thought it was such a dumb idea. If it wasn't already in the game I would call you nuts for asking for such an ability. I really don't like the ability that some of the recon gear gives you like detecting powered down mechs, this needs to be removed as well. Which takes the ambush tactic of power down pretty much out of the game.

I've yet to see someone shut down and wait for the opponent.
Seismic was not bad. It was nice when I had it equipped, but it didn't hurt when I forgot to move it when changing mechs.
I agree that the range was a bit too high, but now...if you don't have advanced Seismic it's crap.

The idea with higher range when standing still is good, but detection depending on mech weight would mean you sense assault mechs at a higher range than light mechs and not vice versa.

Standing still 400m
Assault 350m
Heavy 300m
Medium 250m
Light 200m

I'd also add detection by speed. By this I mean, if your mech walks at less than 20% max speed you will be harder to detect (reduced Seismic range by 75%).
Basically a sneaking mode.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Dimento Graven, on 04 August 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

Spoken like people who want one dimensional game play... Don't want to have to change their mode of play for something that makes the game a lot more immersive and strategic... The same sort of people who believe that militaries would fly 200 light years across the galaxy to go park 5 minutes on a square.

Gamers who think progressing a gaming environment means that developers should be taking features OUT of games... Wow... I guess the transition from Microsoft Solitaire must have been traumatic.

This is exactly how I feel. Seismic opened the door to a ton of new tactics but instead of people focusing on what the could do with Seismic, they focused on what they no longer could do and whined about it which is why I am so pissed off about the whole nerf.

Umbra8, on 04 August 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

As has been mentioned numerous times before, seismic removes complex game elements instead of adding them. It penalizes styles of play that are already high-risk such that they are no longer worth attempting. If everyone had seismic we'd all be sniping or blob-brawling and that's it.

If you want multi-dimensional play you need a system that is more universal in it's application (the gxp and cbill requirements make this a late game module) which opens up play styles or tactics instead of shutting them down. There is no strategy inherent in this module. It's a crutch for those who would rather not scout that passage or try to predict enemy flanking maneuvers or god forbid look behind them and instead just want a wall hack that will do it all for them.

Good riddance, I hope it'***** again with the nerf bat for the sake of gameplay if nothing else.

This is total BS. I have posted numerous times how Seismic actually added complex game elements and tactics but you and several others don't seem to want to open your mind to the posibilities. I used it for planning my angles of attack, insuring I didn't walk into an ambush, hunting for cut off enemy mechs, verifying travel routes, distraction, determining enemy locations that I could relay back to my team, countering ECM equiped lights, countering entire ECM screened enemy teams, planing retreats, and a whole slew of other activities. Your going to tell me none of these things are "Complex Game Elemements or Tactics"? Total BS that.

Also I found Siesmic the most useful on lights because it gave me much needed information to insure my survival, the EXACT opposite situation that most light pilots claimed seismic sensors created. I mean how does it penalize styles of play eactly? What, it made it so that lights relying on blind luck could occassional run up behind an enemy mech? That is 50/50 my friend, you run around that hill and you have a 50/50 chance they are looking at you or away from you. That isn't playstyle, that is luck. Seismic took luck out of of the equation and made it so a light mech pilot had complete control over his fights so that skill and only skill took over.

As far as it being a crutch, I guess for some people it was but that is only if you were so narrow minded about it you didn't see any of the other possibilites or uses for it. Rather it was a tool that if used correctly, greatly enhanced gameplay and added tons of tactical uses that improved not only the individual using it but his teams capability to win a match.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 04 August 2013 - 11:22 PM.

[One Medic Army]

The tears of all the people in love with seismic just makes the nerf all the sweeter.

Oh, and since the OP got 9 likes, and the post saying seismic should be burned at the stake got 58, we all know which way the community as a whole is leaning.

Edited by One Medic Army, 04 August 2013 - 11:24 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

One Medic Army, on 04 August 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

The tears of all the people in love with seismic just makes the nerf all the sweeter.

Oh, and since the OP got 9 likes, and the post saying seismic should be burned at the stake got 58, we all know which way the community as a whole is leaning.

Oh I know the community feels differently that I do which is why they managed to get a nerf pushed through. Still doesn't change that fact that the original seisimic offered MORE in the way of tacitic and gameplay rather than less.

Look I understand that people might like things one way over another and it is obvious our community perfers to be deaf, blind and dumb, relying on blind luck to determine how well they can perform rather than have any sort of real information warfare. It wouldn't even shock me to hear that the community would prefer to not have any sort of radar, nightvision or thermal vision, maybe make MWO more like CoD or something.

This doesn't mean that they are right about the Siesmic sensor. The nerf cost us a valuable information warfare and recon tool and dumbed down the game substancially in my opinion. That is what people wanted so that is what they got, simple as that. Then again this is the current trend with all games. I mean I can't recall how long it has been since I played a game that actually required skill and thought. That apparently is just too hard for people and they can't be bothered to take the time to learn anything therefore it won't sell so game designers quit making them. Welcome to the world we live in.

[Theodor Kling]

Rippthrough, on 04 August 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

That 12 ton garbage truck that runs down my road doesn't make enough vibration to feel it even stood next to it. Maybe yours are broken?

Depends on the road and the building... my building vibrates with each bus or truck passing by. But anyway: A mech would definetly cause different vibrations..less frequency then a truck..but FAR more amplitude

Dimento Graven, on 04 August 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

What I don't get is how PGI misses the obvious balance factors, maps like Terra Therma and Caustic Valley, volcanic maps and therefore by default very seismicly active maps, should have reduced/negated/confusing seismic sensing.

Hmm..now that you mention it.. that would make sense.

BOTA49, on 04 August 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Yeah, except you're comparing real life with a video game. Based on the future. With giant stompy robots. That has had a ruleset for around 30 years. Which has stealth options for said stompy robots.

You shouldn't have 100% 360 degree awareness by any means, and yet basing it around realism would be overly time consuming and futile. Get over it, move on, go cry on some other forum.

True about stealth in BT..but we actually SHOULD have compressed 360° viewscreens in our cockpits according to lore

[Umbra8]

Viktor Drake, on 04 August 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

This is total BS. I have posted numerous times how Seismic actually added complex game elements and tactics but you and several others don't seem to want to open your mind to the posibilities. I used it for planning my angles of attack, insuring I didn't walk into an ambush, hunting for cut off enemy mechs, verifying travel routes, distraction, determining enemy locations that I could relay back to my team, countering ECM equiped lights, countering entire ECM screened enemy teams, planing retreats, and a whole slew of other activities. Your going to tell me none of these things are "Complex Game Elemements or Tactics"? Total BS that.

Planning angles of attack pre-seismic: Visual confirmation or unobstructed radar or team relay of grouping location and vectors
Planning angles of attack post-seismic: Glance down and slightly to the left

Avoiding enemy ambush pre-seismic: Easy, as the enemy didn't have a wall hack to see you trying to sneak by their front
Avoiding enemy ambush post-seismic: Also really easy, as you can all look at each other with your seismic, unless they're not moving of course

Hunting for isolated mechs pre-seismic: Missile contrails, ppc light-trails, sound, unobstructed radar or just good situational awareness
Hunting for isolated mechs post-seismic: Occasionally glance down and slightly to the left, unless he's not moving, then you have to do it the hard way. Mind you, that other mech is going to see you coming bro.

Verifying travel routes: I don't know why you're calling your travel broker during a mech fight, but whatever. Unless this refers to something in-game as oppose to some made-up ********.

Distraction pre-seismic: Make yourself seen, visually or on radar, generally you will know when this is successful.
Distraction post-seismic: As above, or not, as you don't really know if you've been spotted on seismic or not, or even if they do have it, as the mech responsible might have not been moving so... maybe you've been spotted already, maybe not. Only way to know for sure is to do what we all did pre-seismic and hope they don't happen to have the module as well and snipe your *** as soon as you clear cover.

Detecting enemy locations pre-seismic: Actual work that required some measure of skill
Detecting enemy locations post-seismic: Look down and slightly to the left

Countering enemy ECM pre-seismic: BAP or your own ECM
Countering enemy ECM post-seismic: As above, because seismic doesn't do squat about the inability to lock on or relay targeting information. Or perhaps you define 'counter' differently, I don't know.

Countering entire ECM screened teams: I don't... I don't even... perhaps you need to look up what hyperbole means.

Planning retreats: Yeah, cause when that's been needed we all sat down and started working on a plan. I don't know about you but this game seems a bit dynamic for that. Perhaps you're referring the ability to detect safer exit routes when it all goes pear shaped? Seismic is good for that, but it's also good for the enemy to know your location, trajectory and speed prior to breaking cover, so that's kind of a wash in my book.

A slew of other activities: I'm guessing anything that had any relevance at all you already mentioned, but perhaps the module has some unknown benefits for treating altimeters or will get me a reduced rate on a Costco membership.

As for your other statements, I recommend reading my earlier posts, one of which explicitly pointed out why the module was much better for heavier classes than lights. Oh, and you were using the blind luck module to get behind mechs before? Get rid of it, that thing is garbage. I suggest using some tactics and situational awareness instead. It's worked for me.

Unless you have seismic, then you could just use that.

[EvilCow]

Seismic is nice conceptually but (not so surprisingly...) poorly implemented.

In my opinion it should:
1) Only work when standing still.
2) Unable to tell enemies from friendlies.
3) Only give an approximate direction, not a position.
4) Be affected by the terrain type (water, rock, soft terrain, ashes) and the target speed and weight.

An alternate implementation would be to make it to be some kind of acoustic amplifier, you would hear footsteps from much farther away (while standing still), and that's all.

Edited by EvilCow, 05 August 2013 - 12:20 AM.