54 replies to this topic

[Hagetaka]

Let's be honest about what House Steiner is- Space Germans.

That's fine, really. Every House is pretty much a thinly veiled cultural/racial stereotype. We don't need to go over them all. Some are really far more offensive to the cultures they represent (the 1980s were not the most PC decade).

The Lyrans are predominantly German in culture, apart from those troublesome separatist Scots (Isle of Skye- if you haven't put two and two together, that's a nickname in actual real world today for actual real world Scotland). Nowadays we're familiar with German culture's more harmless side- techno, schnitzel, uptightness, a strong economy. That's nothing bad- believe me, I was stationed in Germany for three years and loved every minute.

But there's one word always floating around there, just below everyone's notice, and nobody really wants to mention it when we're playing a fun Space Pew Pew Robot game.



Nazis.


German military tradition is what has kept Germany fighting above its weight class the last 150 years; to be frank, it has picked fights in the last century it had no business winning except for its industrial might and strong military; the WWII Wehrmacht was probably the most copied and studied army of any nation at any time in history. At some point the stereotype of the deadly serious German soldier embedded itself as deeply as the (far more unfair, historically inaccurate) one of the French "cheese-eating surrender monkey".

So why, in any piece of fiction or fluff from the original game (and plenty from later on in the timeline), do the Space Germans suck so bad at...actually fighting a war?

Because of a conscious effort on the part of the original source authors to eliminate any potential Nazi imagery or parallels. Remember, tabletop wargame grognards already have a fairly unhealthy Wehrmacht Worship Complex (just point out any of Rommel's very real shortcomings over a tabletop and watch the profanities fly), and a strong Lyran military steamrollering Marik and Kurita units in a few pieces of game fluff is all it would take before your next tabletop game would be against an angry fat guy in his 40s with a buzzcut and a bunch of miniatures with SS lightning bolts and Death's Heads all over them.

So to avoid all this unpleasantness, a new cultural stereotype. Not the lean and mean German with the iconic helmet and the thousand-yard stare. Instead, the fat bearded Prussian aristocrat, full of beer and mutton and barely able to squeeze into his Assault Mech. Instead of the German tradition of junior officers showing initiative and the de facto requirement that senior officers come from combat arms, the Prussian tradition of aristocratic appointees, and the usual choice of second and third sons (ie those not in line for family titles) to accept cushy military positions. Instead of the (practically German-invented) close training of combined arms, we have the big, ponderous artilllery pieces of their day (ie, Assault Mechs). Instead of the cultural obsession with accurate intel and recon, we have senior officers who have no use for anything under 80 tons.

In short- FASA made you guys fat, slow and incompetent on purpose. They'd rather have Elsies than Nazis. Just look at the FedCom Alliance- they were trolling you all along. It took the Space French to show you how to fight

[Serevn]

I think i brought the goons a little to far out of their hole... I truly smacked the hornets nest.

[ninian]

Serevn, on 11 June 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

I think i brought the goons a little to far out of their hole... I truly smacked the hornets nest.

Just sit back, grab some popcorn, and enjoy the show.

[Camembert]

That was an interesting take on an issue I'd never really thought about before. Good job, OP!

[Hawkeye 72]

Interesting take. I just ask that all who reply avoid invoking Godwin's law and be mindful.

Obviously that period in German history is a very sensitive subject, and rightfully so.

Undoubtedly any video game or source of fiction wants to avoid coming off as a Nazi-supporter, as that is an instant death sentence for your work. Therefore, whether consciously or subconsciously, artists, writers, and game developers may intentionally make flawed characters/factions with German roots.

Then again, Steiner has had several capable leaders over the years (ignore the Katrina Civil War debacle, which is what most people look at).

Rommel had his shortcomings like everyone and there were better generals, but to deny he was a strong commander would be foolish.
I am not sure if I would state that the German army in WWII is the most studied either...military history is extremely broad. If it is the most studied, then I would attribute it more to the era and the large amount of relevant data we have to study rather than the armies effectiveness. (That is not to say their army sucked either...)


If such a thread is to continue, you may want to get a moderators blessing. Such a thread is begging to be set fire with a massive flamewar, and must be treaded on lightly.

[NOBLETETATAEWARRIOR]

The Noble Tetatae have never engaged in genocidal warfare against our own species. We have never had need for global conflict, all being nobile and of Avian Wisdom.
At this point in the history of your species, all factions are guilty of genogical warfare. But there are some who are just that little bit more experienced, got something of a head start. if you squaaak what i mean

edited

Edited by Metro, 12 June 2012 - 06:55 AM.

[Supremacist]

Supremacist, on 11 June 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

POST Objectionable at best - REMOVED

Isn't that ComStar/Word of Blake?

• Religious ideology trumping common sense.
  
• They own the Inner Sphere and control all media.
  
• Backed by everyone and no one at the same time.
  
• The Jihad.

EDITED

Edited by Metro, 12 June 2012 - 06:54 AM.
POST Objectionable at best - REMOVED

[Max Liao]

Supremacist, on 11 June 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

POST Objectionable at best - REMOVED

Isn't that ComStar/Word of Blake?

• Religious ideology trumping common sense.
  
• They own the Inner Sphere and control all media.
  
• Backed by everyone and no one at the same time.
  
• The Jihad.

edited

Edited by Metro, 12 June 2012 - 06:55 AM.

[Prawned]

I always understood Lyran's as the stereotypical "has money to afford decent 'mechs but no idea how to pilot them at all, thus completely reliant on wealth to buy a new 'mech after their Atlas get's blown up by a half-drunk samurai piloting a raven" faction. Isn't that how they're always depicted in the lore?

[Niftal]

An interesting idea, OP. I would rather FASA made Steiner to be more like the Germans after the Marshal Plan and rebuilding of Western Europe. Considering this started before the Berlin Wall fell, they would have to use Western Germany as a template. Then again, an Eastern Germany take-off would have been very odd. No, no, now that I think about it, an Eastern Germany based faction in Battletech is a bad idea.

Or, go back further than Prussia and base it before Bismark. (Probably the wrong spelling) A lose collection of warring factions that no one wanted to or could tame.. Oh, wait, we got the clans for that.

And concerning the idea of a Space Israel, I'll put forth that Earth itself is a good example of it: Constant war over it in Battletech, crusaders want to reclaim it, religious orders to defend it, to name a few themes.

[Evinthal]

ninian, on 11 June 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

Just sit back, grab some popcorn, and enjoy the show.

M'kay.

Even though I am feeling more like this:

Seriously though I did laugh at the "It took the space French to show you how to fight." bit.

[Karl Streiger]

Interesting lets see in which direction this topic will go

@Niftal curious about the GDR? Why would it has been a bad idea?

[Chuggernaut]

First, let me say Germans have kicked *** a lot of other times besides World War 2. Still, though, you are on to something. It is a good thing for the game that Steiner's regimental leadership has been weak, because without the historical ineptness at the middle officer ranks, we would be unstoppable.

Unlike the Mariks, who have the economy and industry to back them up, House Steiner has leaders who can actually make people do stuff rather than scream "no, YOU shut up!" And unlike the Mariks of 3050, after Thomas got that power, we build mechs that don't suck.

Unlike the Kuritas, we can't be crippled by a major strike at a centralized industrial world like the Kuritans can with Luthien.

Unlike Liao, we aren't all poor and such, where we can't afford new bullets and have to recycle them.

And unlike Davion, we know how to read and don't farm dirt.

We're better than everybody, but we're held back by a matter of circumstance. That's why Melissa had to bungle the continuation of Katrina's clearing-out of the officer corps, why Katherine had to take everything backwards, and why Melissa II is the stupidest person ever. Everyone else is held back by some major structural failing, but we just happen to be stuck dealing with fools. Otherwise we would rule the Inner Sphere. We'd educate the Davion people to a 4th grade level (small steps!), show Marik how to keep their house in order, give the Kuritans a lesson in maybe not being a 24th-century weeaboo's fantasy, and teach Liao how to balance a checkbook. Because nobody's finer than House Steiner.

[Serevn]

Chuggernaut, on 12 June 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

Unlike Liao, we aren't all poor and such, where we can't afford new bullets and have to recycle them.

How are we poor?

[Lt muffins]

Serevn, on 12 June 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

How are we poor?

I think he is talking relatively speaking the lyrans have quite the industry.

Edit: another point unrelated to the first

Be afraid when the lyrans get clever

Edited by Lt muffins, 12 June 2012 - 01:00 AM.

[Allen Wren]

Frankly, I'm a bit tired of vintage FASA's lazy "oh just slap some cultural stereotypes on it and hope no one seriously analyzes it" methodology.

[Chuggernaut]

Serevn, on 12 June 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

How are we poor?

A command economy like the CC seldom does any favors for economic strength. The CC has never been in a good position economically, but it's 3049 in universe. Right now, the Capellan Yuen is really only being propped up by Marik. They're not quite North Korea poor, but they're still broke as a joke.

Plus, I'm a Son of Furillo; everyone seems like a bunch of filthy broke peasants to me.

[Hagetaka]

Chuggernaut, on 12 June 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

Unlike the Kuritas, we can't be crippled by a major strike at a centralized industrial world like the Kuritans can with Luthien.

COUGHHESPERUSIICOUGH

[Karl Streiger]

Hagetaka, on 12 June 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

COUGHHESPERUSIICOUGH

Ever tried?
Only once in current history the FWL thanks to the surpreme leadership of the LCAF handled to capture Hesperus II and it were FWL forces - and it were the 10th Lyran Guards that hot dropped on them
Every other attempt was staled and finally drowned in blood of the invaders

Edited by Karl Streiger, 12 June 2012 - 02:56 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

FASA made the Steiner family actually come from the GDR, the former soviet-occupied territory of Germany.

The lore-wise reliance on the heavies mechs available might also stem from the old prussian guard regiment of Friedrich Wilhelm I. Members of that unit had to be at least 1,88 m tall, the bigger, the better. But as big they were they were never considered anything more then a parade unit.