54 replies to this topic

[McGruff]

Very enjoyable original post. And quite some good comments - I as an (40+) German had to laught out aloud several times especially about fat Prussian aristocrats (if you know your history a rather interesting misconception as Prussia was not among the wealthiest states at that time)
But yes, there are definatly a lot of Germans that will join Steiner as a faction. But thats due to the fact that Steiner justs seems to fit a little bit better than for instance Draconis, Liao or the others (although Davion and Mercs bill also be popular).
I really believe that for 99% of the players historical or political reasons will not be the ones that decide what faction they will want to play.
But this does not make Steiner=Space Germans but rather a broad mix of poeple with some roots in Europe that may speak a curious hard accent from time to time .

Anyway this game will be so much fun.

[Sychodemus]

Issues like these disappear quickly when you stop trying to draw one-to-one parallels.

Lyrans are not Germans. You can recognize similarities or percieved inspiration, but every faction is diverse enough that such comparisons can be applicable to any of them, provided you know where to look.

[metro]

Comments referring to a specific religion, race, or nationality in a slanted or derogatory manner, is against the MWO COC and will not be tolerated.

Keep this thread on topic or warnings will be handed out.

THANK YOU EVERYONE.

[Chuggernaut]

Hagetaka, on 12 June 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

COUGHHESPERUSIICOUGH

Hesperus II was blockaded during the Second Succession War for some time. Production at Coventry, Son Hoa, and so on were able to compensate until DefHes was liberated.

If you want to cripple the LC's industry you have to be able to capture a half-dozen major industrialized worlds all across the Commonwealth semi-concurrently like WoB did.

[Nekki Basara]

Hagetaka, on 11 June 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

It took the Space French to show you how to fight

It really confuses me alright. The LC even had space Irish. How can they not be fighty then?

[rilianv]

Hagetaka, on 12 June 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

COUGHHESPERUSIICOUGH

even if they lost Hesperus, they still have Conventry which is the 2nd or 3rd biggest mech factory in the Inner Sphere

[Leonidas Rommel]

Then, they would still have me. And that is all it would take.

[Rappo]

Jolly good. Agree'd goon sir. Pass me my pocket watch.

Edited by Rappo, 12 June 2012 - 12:49 PM.

[Raptor8009]

I have decided to join Steiner because for whatever reason they have the appearance of Strength. And Strength and power in my opinion win out over politics almost every time.

[Weatherman]

Hmm. I think this is one of the most interesting looks into the development of the BTU fluff. And it makes a lot of sense, allowing for the same obvious cultural stereotyping that defines the other major houses, the creators decided to take a somewhat accurate snapshot of a Germany that not everyone remembers (having been overshadowed by their descendants actions).

When you think about it, it's actually quite clever.

Edited by Weatherman, 12 June 2012 - 01:32 PM.

[GearBoxClock]

The big problem in Battletech is that the original writers patterned the various empires/great houses/etc after various cultural stereotypes with only vague attempts to add other cultures into them. While Steiner may not be "All German All day" they have many obvious parallels to Germany at various points in history. Same with all the other political groups. The implications of this are a little bit uncomfortable, especially when some of these cultural stereotypes are pretty much always villains.

[Demoulius]

Actually thinking about it Steiner could very easily be modelled around the Romans to name just one historic faction (with a slightly different accent mind ) Weak leaders beeing appointed from "royal" families and essentially ruining alot of what your forebears have created is also present in a ton of other countries histories...

Its just the economic might thats completing the picture

[DerMaulwurf]

Nah, Rome is already mirrored by the Star League. A pinacle of cultural and technological development. But very and violently imperialist (Reunification War). Stabilized by the collaboration of the elites. Toppled by leaning on "barbarians" (Rim Worlds Republic), because of paranoia towards your peers.Crushed in the petty squabbling over what remains.

The Lyran Commonwealth arose from a mutually beneficial union of its parts and is non-imperialist.

[Chuggernaut]

Also, we are much more attractive than our neighbors, a claim the Romans could not make.

[Harabec Weathers]

Indeed, so handsome!

You know I love ya Defiance.

[Chuggernaut]

I hate Adamn Steiner more than anything that's not a member of Victor and the Super-Friends but when you compare him to our neighbors, Thomas Marik (a victim of third-degree burns and skin grafting, LOOK AT HIS FACE) and a bunch of fursuit wearing Clanners we come out pretty good.

[Johnny Reb]

Hagetaka, on 11 June 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

Let's be honest about what House Steiner is- Space Germans.

That's fine, really. Every House is pretty much a thinly veiled cultural/racial stereotype. We don't need to go over them all. Some are really far more offensive to the cultures they represent (the 1980s were not the most PC decade).

The Lyrans are predominantly German in culture, apart from those troublesome separatist Scots (Isle of Skye- if you haven't put two and two together, that's a nickname in actual real world today for actual real world Scotland). Nowadays we're familiar with German culture's more harmless side- techno, schnitzel, uptightness, a strong economy. That's nothing bad- believe me, I was stationed in Germany for three years and loved every minute.

But there's one word always floating around there, just below everyone's notice, and nobody really wants to mention it when we're playing a fun Space Pew Pew Robot game.



Nazis.


German military tradition is what has kept Germany fighting above its weight class the last 150 years; to be frank, it has picked fights in the last century it had no business winning except for its industrial might and strong military; the WWII Wehrmacht was probably the most copied and studied army of any nation at any time in history. At some point the stereotype of the deadly serious German soldier embedded itself as deeply as the (far more unfair, historically inaccurate) one of the French "cheese-eating surrender monkey".

So why, in any piece of fiction or fluff from the original game (and plenty from later on in the timeline), do the Space Germans suck so bad at...actually fighting a war?

Because of a conscious effort on the part of the original source authors to eliminate any potential Nazi imagery or parallels. Remember, tabletop wargame grognards already have a fairly unhealthy Wehrmacht Worship Complex (just point out any of Rommel's very real shortcomings over a tabletop and watch the profanities fly), and a strong Lyran military steamrollering Marik and Kurita units in a few pieces of game fluff is all it would take before your next tabletop game would be against an angry fat guy in his 40s with a buzzcut and a bunch of miniatures with SS lightning bolts and Death's Heads all over them.

So to avoid all this unpleasantness, a new cultural stereotype. Not the lean and mean German with the iconic helmet and the thousand-yard stare. Instead, the fat bearded Prussian aristocrat, full of beer and mutton and barely able to squeeze into his Assault Mech. Instead of the German tradition of junior officers showing initiative and the de facto requirement that senior officers come from combat arms, the Prussian tradition of aristocratic appointees, and the usual choice of second and third sons (ie those not in line for family titles) to accept cushy military positions. Instead of the (practically German-invented) close training of combined arms, we have the big, ponderous artilllery pieces of their day (ie, Assault Mechs). Instead of the cultural obsession with accurate intel and recon, we have senior officers who have no use for anything under 80 tons.

In short- FASA made you guys fat, slow and incompetent on purpose. They'd rather have Elsies than Nazis. Just look at the FedCom Alliance- they were trolling you all along. It took the Space French to show you how to fight

Lets be honest the word PC did't start till the mid 1990's so that is crap! (how could anything be PC before that crap word existed) Also, just cause a house speaks german second (main is english) they weren't meant to be Nazis (despite your wish). Stop talking you liberal who wants anything against you a fascist!

[Lumpi]

Johnny Reb, on 13 June 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

Lets be honest the word PC did't start till the mid 1990's so that is crap! (how could anything be PC before that crap word existed) Also, just cause a house speaks german second (main is english) they weren't meant to be Nazis (despite your wish). Stop talking you liberal who wants anything against you a fascist!

I think the main languages are german and english on the same level.
I think the LC, as a feudal system, is more like the Kaiserreich around 1900, which would fit your image you draw of the military. Oh, and I think germany was succesfully at wars, they only sucked at the finals, like the family clinch WWI, or WWII (and here it is a good thing we lost)....

McGruff, on 12 June 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

Very enjoyable original post. And quite some good comments - I as an (40+) German had to laught out aloud several times especially about fat Prussian aristocrats (if you know your history a rather interesting misconception as Prussia was not among the wealthiest states at that time)
But yes, there are definatly a lot of Germans that will join Steiner as a faction. But thats due to the fact that Steiner justs seems to fit a little bit better than for instance Draconis, Liao or the others (although Davion and Mercs bill also be popular).
I really believe that for 99% of the players historical or political reasons will not be the ones that decide what faction they will want to play.
But this does not make Steiner=Space Germans but rather a broad mix of poeple with some roots in Europe that may speak a curious hard accent from time to time .

Anyway this game will be so much fun.

I am german, too. And as I got into contact with BT, I was drawn to the LC. I didnt choose them because they where german-like or so, they where just the best fit. But most of my friends playing BT at that time went for Kurita (ok, he was really obsessed by japanese culture, even started to learn japanese) or Clans...

Edited by Lumpi, 13 June 2012 - 02:40 AM.

[Hagetaka]

Johnny Reb, on 13 June 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

Lets be honest the word PC did't start till the mid 1990's so that is crap! (how could anything be PC before that crap word existed) Also, just cause a house speaks german second (main is english) they weren't meant to be Nazis (despite your wish). Stop talking you liberal who wants anything against you a fascist!

PC isn't a word. It's an abbreviation.

I didn't call House Steiner Nazis. As is apparent by anyone who spent five seconds reading my post.

The last sentence is the cherry on top of this dog **** of a post. Both wrong and incomprehensible. Is English your second language? Because here in America, we speak English, buddy.

Edited by Hagetaka, 13 June 2012 - 04:05 AM.

[Kezran Vrass]

The Lyrans are predominantly German in culture, apart from those troublesome separatist Scots (Isle of Skye- if you haven't put two and two together, that's a nickname in actual real world today for actual real world Scotland).

Who uses that Nickname for scotland?