100 replies to this topic

[SwordofLight]

Ok, two things:

Someone above mentioned the Charger - I disagree that its useless without its hand-to-hand capabilities, because in MW:Mercs I modified a Thug to be essentially a Charger, and rocked with it; without the randomness of dice, and with fast recharge time, an SL gunboat is deadly - chain linking a dozen small lasers makes for an almost continuous stream of energy pouring from your mech.

Its the flip of that equation that's always bothered me - in the original MW, I used to stroll up to Warhammers in my Locust and saw off their legs - because they couldnt get the depression to target me, and they had no physcal attacks. It was a joke - heres this massive mech being cut down and executed by a light mech.

Number 2 is the melee system in the Mount & Blade series - its not just hack hack hack. Depending on where you aim, your swing can be overhanded, a stroke, a thrust - and you can use the same system for parry. FPS melee can work if done right - and would be simpler in a mech, because they are articulated, but not even close to a human being.

How would you regulate it? Well, first, if you've got weapons mounted where your fist should be, there should be a damage penalty, and a crit roll. It should be more difficult to hit depending on articulation so a Warhammer should not hit that accuratly, shouldnt do as much damage as a mech with hands of the similar size, and should have a chance of damaging its PPC. Kicking should have some sort of mechanism for wobbling - making it harder to hit, and more likely you fall down go boom. Jump kicks should be possible, but likely to end in a fall - punch the jump jets! Kick! Spin out of control! Fall from level 2! Seatbelt check!

-Don

Edited by Sword_of_Light, 05 November 2011 - 08:34 AM.

[VYCanis]

In regards to punches and arm capabilities, i think there should be some quirks that apply individually for certain mechs who's appearances differ greatly from the baseline, given Battletech's level of visual variety.

for example

Zeus, has no hands, but in the fluff, its right arm is pretty much a dense core which is made to protect the lrm launcher and bludgeon enemies. It should punch for full damage as if it had an actuator.

Catapult, Jenner, Stalker, Champion, Yeoman,and a bunch of others with arms that are just weapon hardpoints and nothing more, no punching.

Kodiak, Pillager, should have some melee bonus for its apparent claws. Either speed, or extra damage, or maybe a bit of both.

Mechs like the hussar, or stormcrow with itty bitty hands/awkward arms, should be dealing with penalties of some sort.

Mechs that would be punching a target weapon barrel first (hand actuator or not) should have a chance at damaging or temporarily jamming the weapon.

Edited by VYCanis, 05 November 2011 - 08:37 AM.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Quote

Someone above mentioned the Charger - I disagree that its useless without its hand-to-hand capabilities, because in MW:Mercs I modified a Thug to be essentially a Charger, and rocked with it; without the randomness of dice, and with fast recharge time, an SL gunboat is deadly - chain linking a dozen small lasers makes for an almost continuous stream of energy pouring from your mech.

Yes, well, what if those SL fired at the same rate as that ERPPC or LB 20-X?
Not so hot anymore then, is it?

Kodiak and Pillager's claws are cosmetics only.

Edited by Alizabeth Aijou, 05 November 2011 - 09:33 AM.

[wanderer]

ironhammer, on 05 November 2011 - 08:04 AM, said:

I agree that mechs that have no lower arm actuators shouldn't have a punch animation, I've done it a few times on tabletop and the looks I get are always hilarious.  "Did you just punch me with a http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Yeoman ?"  On the other side of the coin though, those mechs can fire arm mounted weapons while using their rear view mirrors.  Maybe even discourage melee in handless mechs with the tabletop rule of doing half damage.  So the Warhammer or Marauder takes a clumsy strike with their PPC hands that animates as a downward smash/chop under the same kind of animation code of the Hatchetman axe, but instead of double punch damage of a punch, it does half.

*Tosses his 2 C-bills into the pot*

Which is perfectly sensible. Actuators being missing (or damaged) reduce melee damage in any case, which means a "punch" from some 'Mechs really doesn't deal much damage- a smack from a Warhammer really DOESN'T do as much harm as the Archer next to it that actually has fists.

[VYCanis]

Kodiak and Pillager claws, maybe there's "are" cosmetic, but i think it would be about 200x cooler if they actually provided some ingame effect for using them. Maybe they deal just slightly more damage when they punch. Or maybe they simply don't connect with punches, they just stab with the claws for a similar amount of damage, using a different animation for their punches than other mechs.

the claws look too **** cool to simply ignore.

Besides, at 100 tons, melee should be looking spectacular for when that inevitable poor fool decides to get too close.
Atlases punch like train crashes (see brutal punch)
Pillagers and Kodiaks punch with a series of slashes and stabs
other mechs might have their own particular melee style

[SwordofLight]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 05 November 2011 - 09:32 AM, said:

Yes, well, what if those SL fired at the same rate as that ERPPC or LB 20-X?
Not so hot anymore then, is it?

Kodiak and Pillager's claws are cosmetics only.

Which is why the Charger is useless in Battletech - because there is no recharge component. But this isnt going to be turn-based, obviously, so theres no reason for all the weapons to have essentially the same recharge time. And in MW:Mercs there was a minimal recharge time for small lasers and pulse small lasers, and using the link-fire feature meant making what amounted to a 12-barrel small laser Gatling gun. My only limiter was heat - and with double capacity heat sinks, it wasnt an issue.

-Don

[FlystreesVagann]

Its not worth discussing this because devs already stated that there won't be any meele and i am glad they decided that,meele doesn't belong in game with 90 ton big robots.

[A C E]

As long as balancing issues are not an issue im all for it. But it looks like for the time being elee is not to be implemented.

[Twilight]

You COULD implement it as a contextual activation, i.e. if you're within five meters, you're given the option to initiate a melee attack, and it's based on your pilioting stats, speed and type of Mech as to what happens, and the chance to hit - I.e. a Hatchetman is going to give you Da Axe, Atlas Smash, Warhammer shoves it's PPC in your face and fires.

[Kell Aset]

omega5-9er, on 04 November 2011 - 11:49 AM, said:

Please, read the FAQ people. Piranha has already said "NO MELEE MECHS."

FlystreesVagann, on 07 November 2011 - 04:32 AM, said:

Its not worth discussing this because devs already stated that there won't be any meele and i am glad they decided that,meele doesn't belong in game with 90 ton big robots.

Actually --->

Bryan Ekman, on 06 November 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:

Melee is a huge system. Charging, knocking down, etc.. are by products of the physics engine. These will mostly likely make the cut. Full on hand-to-hand combat is a beast. It's part of the books, part of Solaris and something we are considering post launch, but only IF we can make it work and look amazing.

http://mwomercs.com/...age__pid__21163

Hope to see some melee combat in game, if it is implemented well that is.

Edited by Kell Aset, 07 November 2011 - 08:17 AM.

[FlystreesVagann]

Upsi daisy,i take my words back x)

[Alizabeth Aijou]

wanderer, on 06 November 2011 - 02:04 PM, said:

Which is perfectly sensible. Actuators being missing (or damaged) reduce melee damage in any case, which means a "punch" from some 'Mechs really doesn't deal much damage- a smack from a Warhammer really DOESN'T do as much harm as the Archer next to it that actually has fists.

Archer is better off kicking if fighting a Warhammer in melee.

[The Chief]

In case the develops do read this thread with any bit of intensity I would love at least some basic physical attacks. But even if that is beyond hope can I still have an Axman? Please?

[Wraith 1]

I really don't care what they do with melee attacks, for 3 reasons:

1. Ancient weapons and excessive armor are no match for a good gauss rifle kid...
2. What happens to you if you core a 'mech with a hatchet at point-blank?
3. Is it really any different than just using a LBX-AC20 at point-blank?

[simon1812]

honestly I undertand the corncer of the devs, but it would be so darn cool to see the attlas smack one into a mech with those popeye arms of his XD

[Sevari]

I think perhaps it would be something to consider in a later update/rollout after the game itself is running smooth and bug free. I think the melee would be fun, not needed often, but kinda nice after your left with no ammo, energy weapons gone etc, and a mech still coming for ya,... you can go out kicking and screaming!

[VYCanis]

Wraith-1, on 08 November 2011 - 02:18 PM, said:

I really don't care what they do with melee attacks, for 3 reasons:

1. Ancient weapons and excessive armor are no match for a good gauss rifle kid...
2. What happens to you if you core a 'mech with a hatchet at point-blank?
3. Is it really any different than just using a LBX-AC20 at point-blank?

1. Gauss rifles are a liability up close and explode when blown up.
2. Not every mech blows up like a bomb, in fact, more often than not, they're supposed to fall over disabled. Only MW4 and mechassault had every mech death going critical.
3. lbx20s use ammo, and you don't always have one handy.

If anything, for the sake of simplicity melee could probably be handled by 1 button
-tap to punch. There is a slight delay as your mech fist is pulled back, before it crashes forward into your opponent.
-hold and release to kick, holding the button slows your mech down/centers your torso to the crosshairs before it can kick.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Quote

2. Not every mech blows up like a bomb, in fact, more often than not, they're supposed to fall over disabled. Only MW4 and mechassault had every mech death going critical.

And Stackpole novels.
TechManual also flat-out states that unless you're actively trying for your reactor to Stackpole, it ain't going to happen.

Quote

1. Ancient weapons and excessive armor are no match for a good gauss rifle kid...

Ancient weapons?
The hatchet was invented in 3022, current year is 3048/3049.
It'd be the same as calling the M1A1 Abrams "ancient".
And using the Axman as an example, said hatched does 13 damage on a hit, with better accuracy than an AC/20.
On a Berserker, its going to do the same damage as an AC/20. For no heat/ammo.

[wanderer]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 07 November 2011 - 10:04 AM, said:

Archer is better off kicking if fighting a Warhammer in melee.

Oh, I agree. I was just using two identical-weight designs for the "missing actuators" comparison.

I normally put in the boot, Warhammers can barely take one kick to the leg armor, and two will shred the leg.

[Damocles]

I tried to tackle the mechanics to make melee combat work here:
http://mwomercs.com/...bat-could-work/

There are threads all over so I thought I'd post a link to it so ya'll could give me some feedback.

/Damo