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Ultimate Fix To Ppcs: Charge And Release


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#1 C12AZyED

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:00 AM

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For far too long we have witnessed the flame war that has arisen out of the High Pinpoint Alpha meta-game. Many of you have proposed radical changes to the heat system, targeting mechanics aswell as the fine tuning of particular weapons such as the PPC. I think it is time for a real, easily implementable system that will finally address this most confounding of issues.



I believe of speak on behalf of the community when I say that the PPC is ultimately the crux of the problem, as it is easily used in conjunction with other weapons such as the Gauss, which has now created the ultimate cookie-cutter build:2xPPC +Gauss, largely on Victors and Highlanders.
The reason why this build is so powerful is because all weapons converge perfectly on the target, and in the hands of a competent player, will efficiently destroy Side-Torsos on XL, Leg 'Mechs and even Cockpit fairly easily.
The solution I am about to propose is not only lore friendly(PPCs are unstable charged bolts of energy with immense power), but has appreciable potential for satisfying, skill based gameplay.


PPCs should be "charge and release".






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Making PPCs charge and release will require players to first prep their PPCs before firing the weapons(think "Dum dum dum dum dum-CHTHOINK"). Onomatopoeia aside, this change could have profoundly beneficial gameplay impacts.
-Assuming Left Click as our binding, you can either click once and wait for charge sequence to complete before clicking again to release the charged projectile, or you can click, hold and let go-whatever is more comfortable for you.
-PPCs released before charging sequence is complete will do damage scaling from 1-10, depending on how far in the charge sequence you released at. Supposing we set the "charge time at 2 seconds(easily changable just an example(!)), releasing your primed PPCs at the 1 second mark will do 5 damage, while releasing at the end will do the full, 10 damage.
-Finally, and this part I see as optional but potentially viable, prepped PPCs will slowly begin to build heat, proportional to how many PPCs are currently prepped. This means you cannot simply hold charged PPCs forever, as the immense power and intensity of the weapon systems places you under pressure to get the projectile down range! However, I would imagine the heat creep should be relatively low all things considered.

So how will this affect our gameplay?

- Convergence-Charging the PPCs first means that the 2xPPC+Gauss build is largely hampered right off the bat, as players will no longer immediately be able to produce an opportunistic 35 damage pinpoint-Alpha as naturally, the PPCs will have to come after the Gauss slug once charged unless they have already been prepped.

-Poptarting will also become slightly more challenging, as players will have to prep their PPCs before, or even mid jump before firing, making timing a more integral part of this combat strategy.

-Scouting: Additionally, tentative scouts popping over a dubious ridge to test for targets will not be immediately punished by an onslaught of PPC+Gauss to the face and CT(unless the enemy has "pre-prepped" their PPCs in waiting, in which case they are slowly building heat), as there will be a small grace window to retreat before the walls of energy come slamming in.
At this stage I'd like to draw your attention to what this weapon mechanic could potentially look like in terms of charging, though not the nature of the released projectile:


Go to 0:40




This excerpt from Doom 3 shows a powerful energy weapon, the BFG 9000, being prepped and charged before the release of the projectile. You will have to imagine that instead of a slow moving Orb of green, that the released projectile on a 'Mech is a fast streak of blue energy :).

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Not only does this solution address many of the community concerns in terms of gameplay balance, but a would allow for some pretty cool looking animations, as a highly visible, blue electrical charge starts to build on your opponents PPCs, indicating they're prepping to shoot you.

I hope you will agree that this is an interesting, easy to implement weapon mechanic that will deal with much of the cheesy gameplay we're seeing now, whilst still preserving the viability of the weapon as a powerful alternative to ballistics. I am highly curious to see your feedback on this, it took me a while to write up!

Edited by C12AZyED, 05 August 2013 - 04:31 AM.


#2 Rengakun

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:05 AM

Can't we just drastically reduce the rate of fire for PPCs and increase their heat even further?


I wouldn't want to end up charging up my weapons just like in Warframe...(Those bows and rocket launchers...)

#3 Lightfoot

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:10 AM

No!

You won't fix anything in MWO by nerfing things further. 3xPPCs is a basic loadout in 'MechWarrior balancing', that pales in comparison to what the Clans are bringing. In a few months when the Clans arrive you will be saying buff PPCs.

Your idea is not a solution.

You know you can make a game so difficult no one will play it. MWO already rates high on this scale with new players because the mechs are hard to control and now they added 'Mystery Heat' to group-fire, which they prompt players to use in Mech's group-fire UI. It's like the game has got a split personality.

It's different when you are firing just one weapon like in Quake (Quake-Warrior). Charged PPCs reminds me of Bombast Lasers from MW4 which no one ever used. I think they pulled Bombast Lasers from MW4 Mercenaries just because no one ever used them in the previous two games.

The solution is not to over-complicate the game, but just make mechs tougher. Maybe all it would take is 20-25% more CT armor. MechWarrior is built around firing groups of weapons unlike other shooters. You can't remove it and not accepting it is the wrong way to go.

Why make a MechWarrior game if you reject the core dynamic of group-fire?

Edited by Lightfoot, 05 August 2013 - 02:27 PM.


#4 Elizander

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:12 AM

What's stopping me from charging my PPCs and then releasing while clicking on my Gauss?

#5 C12AZyED

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:15 AM

View PostElizander, on 05 August 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

What's stopping me from charging my PPCs and then releasing while clicking on my Gauss?


Nothing is stopping you from doing that, its just more difficult to do.

#6 Lightfoot

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:24 AM

The real problem with MWO is the 2x Recharge that is not being supported by the Devs with tough enough Mechs.

It's not enough to just double the armor because at a 2-4 second recharge you have changed the gameplay dynamic to one where Mechs just face-off and core each other.

At 5-8 second recharge on large weapons you know to count the seconds on your opponent's weapon recharge and when that 6 or 8 second mark hits, you turn and take the damage to your mech's arm. So you don't get cored, you interactively defend your mech's CT. Yourself. You can't do that in MWO because the recharge is too fast on everything.

#7 Elizander

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:25 AM

View PostC12AZyED, on 05 August 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:


Nothing is stopping you from doing that, its just more difficult to do.


It won't change the situation then because execution of difficulty will just limit it to people who are better at the game and it will not remove the problem at all. It will still exist and the complaints will be that player X can pull it off and player y can't.

Edit:

As a side note, I am not against PPCx2+Gauss but I don't mind discussing it. I prefer massive 50-60+ damage alpha strikes at close range and PPCx2+UAC myself.

Edited by Elizander, 05 August 2013 - 04:26 AM.


#8 C12AZyED

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:34 AM

View PostElizander, on 05 August 2013 - 04:25 AM, said:


It won't change the situation then because execution of difficulty will just limit it to people who are better at the game and it will not remove the problem at all. It will still exist and the complaints will be that player X can pull it off and player y can't.


In making the execution of that Alpha more difficult to perform, and making less viable for a opportunistic shot, it will reduce its efficacy in the meta-game. I do not think that 2 PPC+GAUSS should be an impossible combo, but that the weapons themselves should have slightly different firing mechanisms to make it more difficult for them to converge.

#9 Erata

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:38 AM

View PostRengakun, on 05 August 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

Can't we just drastically reduce the rate of fire for PPCs and increase their heat even further?


I wouldn't want to end up charging up my weapons just like in Warframe...(Those bows and rocket launchers...)

"Can't we just drastically reduce the rate of fire for PPCs and increase their heat even further?"

This is essentially what a charge-up delay would do.
To be clear, I am completely ok with a quirky, strange way to go about making the recycle rate lower, but it might make the PPC irrelevant if it's too slow.

It sounds janky as heck though, so I'm all for it.

#10 Nema Nabojiv

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:41 AM

After the heat penalties introduction there is no problem with ppc's to begin with. And there is no problem with 2ppc+gauss since its mainly an assault build and assaults should have a good punch because they, well, assaults.

#11 Wolfways

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:43 AM

There's nothing wrong with PPC's. It's the pinpoint alpha's and little armour that are the problem.

#12 C12AZyED

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:43 AM

View PostDymdr, on 05 August 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

After the heat penalties introduction there is no problem with ppc's to begin with. And there is no problem with 2ppc+gauss since its mainly an assault build and assaults should have a good punch because they, well, assaults.


You cannot honestly deny the tiresome over-usage of this build in almost all matches. This build is a min-maxing, powerbuild that takes full advantage of the core gameplay mechanic of locational weak spots. This solution is here to help mitigate that problem, and in the long run strive to provide the variety of weapon loadouts so desperately needed to make the gameplay enjoyable.

#13 Elizander

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:46 AM

View PostC12AZyED, on 05 August 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:


In making the execution of that Alpha more difficult to perform, and making less viable for a opportunistic shot, it will reduce its efficacy in the meta-game. I do not think that 2 PPC+GAUSS should be an impossible combo, but that the weapons themselves should have slightly different firing mechanisms to make it more difficult for them to converge.


I just walk around with it charged and release when needed in this case if people are allowed to hold onto the charge forever. The two weapons already have different projectile speeds though and that's enough for me. The only people I core from across the map are the ones that do not move and there are a lot of those. Still, I wouldn't mind seeing a slower PPC projectile.

If we are keeping PPCs this fast, I wouldn't mind having a 0.25 - 0.5 second or less firing delay on it (the fixed kind, not that variable fire delay way back when) for it to charge up before shooting. I do not think that being able to hold a charge and decide when to release will make a difference..

View PostDymdr, on 05 August 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

After the heat penalties introduction there is no problem with ppc's to begin with. And there is no problem with 2ppc+gauss since its mainly an assault build and assaults should have a good punch because they, well, assaults.


This is quite true. You can probably get some heavy mechs to run with it but it's going to be pretty tight in terms of space. Again, I don't mind 2xPPC + Gauss being in the game. My main issue at the moment is PPC projectile speed and their low heat.

#14 Xanquil

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:46 AM

Increase the cool down rate(add 1-2s between firing), add a .5s delay to the firing of a PPC, or make it splash damage. But do not bring the charge mechanic into this game like MechAssault. I for one hated that game. The only real fix for all weapons hitting the same spot is to not let them.(ie remove pinpoint accuracy from alpha strikes)

Edited by Xanquil, 05 August 2013 - 04:49 AM.


#15 McQuackers

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:49 AM

Hahahahahaha, oh man, oh god no. PPC functionality is fine. The only issue is that they run too cool for what they are. Convergence is also an issue.

But charge and shoot? That's just ridiculous.

#16 C12AZyED

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:51 AM

View PostMcQuackers, on 05 August 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:


But charge and shoot? That's just ridiculous.


What particular aspect of that mechanic do you take umbrage with?

#17 Bors Mistral

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 05:01 AM

Frankly, I'd like a game mechanic like that.

To make coding easier on PGI however, why not just give PPCs a 0.5sec charge time and ERPPCs a 0.8?
Then also change projectile speeds to 1600 for PPCs and 1800 for ERPPCs.

That should put a dent in that "pinpoint alpha", raise the skill level a bit and make it, overall, more fun.

#18 Ralgas

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 05:02 AM

they did it in mechassault, it sucked.

a global reduction in projectile speeds, with ppc's getting hit harder than most would be a better solution

#19 Nema Nabojiv

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 05:03 AM

View PostC12AZyED, on 05 August 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

You cannot honestly deny the tiresome over-usage of this build in almost all matches.
It is indeed overused. But the reason behind this is that other weapon systems are crap or not as comfortable as current cheese. The proper fix imo would be to encourage non-cheese usage by making other weapons better so we would have a bunch of good guns to choose from. What is proposed in all ppc-whine threads, is to discourage ppc usage by making them worse so we would only had bad vs. even worse guns. Hate this approach tbh.

#20 Purlana

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 05:12 AM

Just bring the heat from PPCs back to their original values and I will be happy. You can even remove the heat from boating...

Edited by Purlana, 05 August 2013 - 05:14 AM.






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