38 replies to this topic

[Felio]

Quote

15% of critical damage dealt to an exposed 'Mech component will now be directly applied to the internal structure of that component.

• This is only applied to the critical damage done. Base weapon damage is not taken into account.
  
• Critical damage is not applied through armor.
  
• Armor must be reduced to 0% before any crit damage is applied to internals.

My understanding was that previously, once armor had been stripped to a section, equipment stored there had a chance to be damaged by a critical hit. Now it says equipment will be damaged by 15% of the damage.

The only possible interpretation I see is that it is an 85% nerf to critical hits, but I know that is not the case.

I have read the wiki article over and over, and it has given me no new insights.

[Xiphias]

My understanding of this is that "internal structure" is referring to the mech hp, so to speak. I.e. critical hits used to do extra damage only to components. Now they do extra damage to components and internals (mech hp).

That's just my thought. It's the only thing that makes sense to me based on how crits are supposed to work. I haven't had a chance to play the new patch yet so I have no idea if it's true. Take it for what it's worth.

[Rusty Shackleferd]

From my knowledge, once your armor is gone, further damage will go to your internal structure. Once the health points of the internal structure is depleted, that structure blows off, such as a side torso. Critical hits only has a chance to happen to a component stored in a body part that has its armor stripped. The chance of these critical hits depends on the weapon with Machine Guns and LBX-10 having the highest chance. What I can interpret from this change is that once you strip a body part of armor and apply damage to it, say a AC10 round, the body part has a chance to take extra damage. I think the process follows in that the internal structure receives 10 damage. If it is a critical hit, 10-30 damage(http://mwomercs.com/...-a-brief-guide/) is applied to the component in that body part. If it gets this "extra chance", 15% more damage or 1.5 more damage is applied back to the internal structure. Hence, there is a possibility of dealing extra damage with high criting weapons.

[Koniving]

What I don't like is previously it was mentioned this would only apply to the MGs, thereby making them more viable.

Now it applies to everything. I should warn you this means that AC/20s will now do bonus damage, as their crit damages were very high (can't remember the ranges but they were very high), which means 15% of that crit damage now goes to your internals too.

Say if it's 4 damage to crit slots, 15% of that now also goes to your structure health (0.6 bonus).

If does 8 damage to crit slots, 15% of that now also goes to your structure health (1.2).

As an example there's a (depending on how you read it) 2% or 7% chance of a single MG bullet doing 3 damage to your crit slots (as of the 1.0 damage/sec buff for MGs). That means this super MG bullet can also do 0.6 additional damage to your structure health as well as the actual bullet damage of 0.1.

Fun fact: Small lasers have high crit chances, too. 6 SL + 2 MGs = instant destruction of an AC/20 (18 health). Even if there's 6 damage done by 2 super MG bullets, that leaves 12 crit damage done by small lasers. Worth testing!

[Redshift2k5]

Take an AC-10.

If you have no armor, you take 10 damage to your internals.

That same 10 damage may also be applied as a crit to an item. This crit may be 10, 20, or even 30 (1x,2x, or 3x the original damage) damage dealt to the item.

The change this weeks results in a further 15% of that critical damage (from the item being critted) damage being applied back to the internal structure.

All weapon will benefit to a marginal degree from this change, but weapons that deal additional critical damage (MGs, LBX10s) will get further bonuses.

[Koniving]

Redshift2k5, on 06 August 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

All weapon will benefit to a marginal degree from this change, but weapons that deal additional critical damage (MGs, LBX10s) will get further bonuses.

This is going to make damage-related bug finding much harder to find...

[Redshift2k5]

Koniving, on 06 August 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

This is going to make damage-related bug finding much harder to find...

Test them on a section without any items? Easier said than done, I know, but simple if you're doing some pre-arranged testing.

[Benjamin Davion]

Koniving, on 06 August 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Fun fact: Small lasers have high crit chances, too. 6 SL + 2 MGs = instant destruction of an AC/20 (18 health). Even if there's 6 damage done by 2 super MG bullets, that leaves 12 crit damage done by small lasers. Worth testing!

What about SPL? I have a six SPL Jenner that just got very excited.

[Felio]

I was not aware that body parts had "internal structure" HP.

Let me see if I understand:

BEFORE: A normal hit damaged a stripped body part's internal structure. A critical hit could also hit a piece of equipment stored there.

NOW: A normal hit damages a stripped body part's internal structure. A critical hit can also hit a piece of equipment stored there, and if this happens, an additional 15% of the damage also goes to the body part's internal structure.

If the internal structure of a body part reaches 0, the body part is destroyed, along with any equipment still there.

Edited by Felio, 06 August 2013 - 03:57 PM.

[Grrzoot]

Felio, on 06 August 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

I was not aware that body parts had "internal structure" HP.

Let me see if I understand:

BEFORE: A normal hit damaged a stripped body part's internal structure. A critical hit could also hit a piece of equipment stored there.

NOW: A normal hit damages a stripped body part's internal structure. A critical hit can also hit a piece of equipment stored there, and if this happens, an additional 15% of the damage also goes to the body part's internal structure.

If the internal structure of a body part reaches 0, the body part is destroyed, along with any equipment still there.

this is correct, now instead of just destroying the internal and doing a tiny % of damage to the internals, 15% of total damage is applied, so a 50 pt alpha, would do an additional 7.5 points of damage to that point assuming the armor is gone. It is an indirect buff to all weapons but buffs crit seeking weapons more than direct damage.

[Redshift2k5]

Grrzoot, on 06 August 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

this is correct, now instead of just destroying the internal and doing a tiny % of damage to the internals, 15% of total damage is applied, so a 50 pt alpha, would do an additional 7.5 points of damage to that point assuming the armor is gone. It is an indirect buff to all weapons but buffs crit seeking weapons more than direct damage.

no, not's not a flat rate of 7.5 damage per 50 damage.

Crits are highly variable, there is only a 42% chance a hit will cause a crit (25% chance of causing 1 critical hit, a 14% chance of causing 2 critical hits, and a 3% chance of causing 3 critical hits), and the amount of damage that crit actually deals to the item is also variable (1x 2x or 3x for normal weapons, plus extra crit/damage for MGs, flamers, LBX10s)

[Grrzoot]

Redshift2k5, on 06 August 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

no, not's not a flat rate of 7.5 damage per 50 damage.

Crits are highly variable, there is only a 42% chance a hit will cause a crit (25% chance of causing 1 critical hit, a 14% chance of causing 2 critical hits, and a 3% chance of causing 3 critical hits), and the amount of damage that crit actually deals to the item is also variable (1x 2x or 3x for normal weapons, plus extra crit/damage for MGs, flamers, LBX10s)

you are of course correct redshift, sorry i just figured it at a base flat rate chance because it was an easier (and probably modal) guess that would average it out. The math for each mg bullet etc would be pretty harsh

[Selfish]

Koniving, on 06 August 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Fun fact: Small lasers have high crit chances, too. 6 SL + 2 MGs = instant destruction of an AC/20 (18 health). Even if there's 6 damage done by 2 super MG bullets, that leaves 12 crit damage done by small lasers. Worth testing!

This isn't true. MGs are doing the majority of the legwork. An MG on its own deals ~11.875 CDPS. With 2 Mgs versus an 18 HP item you'll see destruction in ~0.75 seconds.

A small laser has no hidden crit modifier. It deals ~1.86 critical damage over its 0.75s duration, for ~0.62 CDPS. If you fired an MG for that time, it would deal ~8.73 damage. Overall the Slas is just lackluster for crit seeking.

[Koniving]

Selfish, on 06 August 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

This isn't true. MGs are doing the majority of the legwork. An MG on its own deals ~11.875 CDPS. With 2 Mgs versus an 18 HP item you'll see destruction in ~0.75 seconds.

A small laser has no hidden crit modifier. It deals ~1.86 critical damage over its 0.75s duration, for ~0.62 CDPS. If you fired an MG for that time, it would deal ~8.73 damage. Overall the Slas is just lackluster for crit seeking.

I figured this much, but whenever I say it people say I'm full of it and exaggerating how powerful MGs are. I do know the Atlas victim I had was calling "Bullsh" and "PGI really needs to relook at the crit numbers for the MGs, I lost my AC/20 instantly." Followed by several very unhappy expletives about them being overpowered.

Didn't know the specific math. Though when I said instant I meant as in there's still armor when the lasers started, and the armor was gone with the end of the beam as well as the AC/20 at nearly the same time. So it's pretty wicked.

So I suppose the 6 SLs did 1.86 * 6 = 11.16 combined with the two MGs dealing 8.73*2 = 17.46 to total 17.46 + 11.16 = ~28.62... holy @#$%-$#&!. I'm guessing that's a high-end of the crit damage.

But 15% of that is 4.293 damage to the structure health now. Interesting. I know the tears were glorious in my runs with the Firebrand using 6 SL + 2 MGs, where enemies with nasty weapons frequently were rendered completely weaponless before losing a single limb on their body but heh heh heh ha ha ha ha!!! MWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!

Not sure how much truth there is to this, as I've never seen what the small laser crit chances are, but you just made my day.

[Koniving]

Felio, on 06 August 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

I was not aware that body parts had "internal structure" HP.

If the internal structure of a body part reaches 0, the body part is destroyed, along with any equipment still there.

Exactly. There's 2 types of health. Armor and Structure. The borders around the mech diagram are the armor. The actual body inside is the structure. You can lose the armor and still have the limb. But when the actual cream filling turns black it's gone, finito, destroyed.

How it works:
If what I've last heard is correct, the structure health is equal to half your maximum armor for that limb. So if 48 is the maximum armor for the side torso of a Hunchback or Centurion, 24 is the structure health of that side torso.

This means the maximum possible damage the side torso of a 50 ton mech can take is 48 + 24 = 72. But all it really has to take minimum is 24 damage to the internals, which can be blown out from the inside by the transfer of damage inside the body -- i.e. an arm or leg is loaded with ammo, the ammo detonates, now that explosion floods through the body into the side torso ripping it apart from the inside.

It's why when I use my Firebrand with 6 SL and 2 MGs and blow out someone's leg on an ammo-heavy mech, there's a series of small explosive sounds within that mech, and some 1 to 4 seconds later the mech falls over dead. Everything inside just went "Boom, pow, kaboom, eeeeeyooooo-POW!" Sayonara or however it's spelled, sucker, it's what you get for having ammo in your leg.

Redshift2k5, on 06 August 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

Test them on a section without any items? Easier said than done, I know, but simple if you're doing some pre-arranged testing.

Wouldn't that still result in "crit damage" being transferred to real damage? Just because it can't find somewhere to settle on, doesn't necessarily mean we'd lose that extra damage.

Benjamin Davion, on 06 August 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

What about SPL? I have a six SPL Jenner that just got very excited.

You'd think they would have almost the same crit damage. But according to Selfish, the MGs would have done most of the leg work. Still.. It's worth a peek. What I don't like though is that this means PPCs are gonna do bonus damage too.

I really wish different weapons did different types of damage.

Edited by Koniving, 06 August 2013 - 06:30 PM.

[Redshift2k5]

Redshift2k5, on 06 August 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

Test them on a section without any items? Easier said than done, I know, but simple if you're doing some pre-arranged testing.

Koniving, on 06 August 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

Wouldn't that still result in "crit damage" being transferred to real damage? Just because it can't find somewhere to settle on, doesn't necessarily mean we'd lose that extra damage.

Crit damage only occurs when items are in a section and an item crit is rolled. This new system is taking some of the damage from item damage and transferring it over ti IS as well. No items in a section, no crits.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

This "15% damage transfered to mech internals" is another crap attempt at buffing the effectiveness of LBX's and Mguns (and I guess flamers) so their crit seek now increases their damage to exposed components.

Problem is, weapons that ACTUALLY hurt/kill mechs also got buffed because of this, and now making said weapon systems EVEN MORE worthless.


PGI needs to stop making all these convoluted over-complicated systems that new players will never figure out unless they dig up incredible amounts of info (as if this game wasn't already loaded with critical information such as weapon types, damage, heat, equipment, etc.) What ever happened to following the intentions and purpose these weapons had, with rules and examples in PAST games/TT that have been there for 25 plus years! You don't have to follow the values verbatim, but there are explicit rules describing how these weapon systems work with various GOOD examples of how they operated in SEVERAL mechwarrior games such as MPBT:3025, MechWarrior 2, MechWarrior 3, MechWarrior 4, MechWarrior:Living Legends. So the fact that these weapons continue to suck is absolutely inexcusable.

They need to scrap the current weapon mechanics for Pulse Lasers, LBXs, Mguns and Flamers and start from scratch. They can tweak the numbers all they want, and the end of the day they will all still suck because of how they work, not the numbers associated with them. (Well, I take that back, Mguns would be fine if they JUST INCREASED THE DAMAGE!)


A weapon based on a gimmick will never work. A good weapon with a gimmick (such as ppc knocking out ECM temporarily) just makes said weapon slightly better.

Edited by mwhighlander, 06 August 2013 - 08:17 PM.

[Selfish]

Koniving, on 06 August 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

So I suppose the 6 SLs did 1.86 * 6 = 11.16 combined with the two MGs dealing 8.73*2 = 17.46 to total 17.46 + 11.16 = ~28.62... holy @#$%-$#&!. I'm guessing that's a high-end of the crit damage.

Not sure how much truth there is to this, as I've never seen what the small laser crit chances are, but you just made my day.

It's actually the average crit damage, so you're more likely to see results around that point. I've got the math here if you're interested/want to double check.

The small laser crit chances are the same 42% layout of normal weapons.

The new crit % transfer makes 4x MG builds fairly strong. Once they hit an unarmored component their DPS jumps from 4 to ~11 DPS.

[Void Angel]

Grrzoot, on 06 August 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

this is correct, now instead of just destroying the internal and doing a tiny % of damage to the internals, 15% of total damage is applied, so a 50 pt alpha, would do an additional 7.5 points of damage to that point assuming the armor is gone. It is an indirect buff to all weapons but buffs crit seeking weapons more than direct damage.

The way PGI talks about internal structure and components is a bit wierd, and tends to confuse people who played a lot of Battletech/Mechwarrior (like me!)

This is the way it all hashes out: I'm going to use clearer terms than PGI, and note their terms in parenthesis. Tell me if I'm wrong, but this is how I understand it:

• when any damage penetrates the armor of a hit location (component) and damages the internal structure (internals,) the game rolls for a critical hit. This critical is in addition to the internal structure damage.
  
• If that crit roll is successful, the damage that caused the critical base weapon damage is applied to a randomly selected piece of equipment (i.e. an Autocannon) in that location 1, 2, or 3 times (depending on the roll.)
  
• Every weapon or piece of gear you throw into a 'mech has its own pre-set number of "hit points." Once damage equal to or exceeding those hit points is dealt to that specific piece of equipment, it is destroyed (and may possibly explode for even more damage to your poor 'mech, depending on what it is.)
  
• Previously, that was the end of it; now, whenever that critical chance is rolled, 15% of each critical hit is applied directly to the internal structure - so if you rolled 3 critical hits on a shot, the damage for that shot would increase by 45%.
  
• This critical damage is applied to the internal structure whether or not there is any special equipment in that location to destroy, making crit-seeking weapons, such as machine guns, very powerful when attacking exposed internal structure.

I'm not clear whether this effect takes place if there is no equipment stored in a breached hit location - I think it might, but I'm entirely unsure on that point. It depends on how the game determines whether to roll a critical in the first place, and how that's handled. Edit: see Selfish's post on page 2.

Edited by Void Angel, 08 August 2013 - 01:04 AM.

[Koniving]

Selfish, on 07 August 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

The new crit % transfer makes 4x MG builds fairly strong. Once they hit an unarmored component their DPS jumps from 4 to ~11 DPS.

One of the Blackjacks should have had 4 ballistic hardpoints. Although looking at the Blackjack tree on Sarna, one was supposed to have missile racks too. Here's to hoping we get a missile rack BJ soon (it's a BJ-2 so there's absolutely no reason not to have it), and a BJ hero with 4 to 6 ballistics so I can stack the MGs.