129 replies to this topic

[Dawnstealer]

I still solo-PUG when I don't want to subject the Black Sheep (or other FC players) to me grinding out a particular mech. I usually group up on the weekends and PUG during the week.

No real problem, you just have to type more. Also, you have to adjust to what the "herd" is doing as opposed to just assuming people will "get it" when you go do your usual thing.

12v12 is far more tactical, I'm seeing and every shot counts. While the individual isn't as important as in 8v8, they do matter. Those shots do matter. What you do matters.

You just have to make it count.

[xCico]

Sadly yes, I used to play sometime this style, now they took even that from me :| 12v12 no! 8v8 YEA!

[Koniving]

Padic, on 07 August 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

That might be what you're observing, but that's not the take away message I got from the command chair posts. My understanding is that when players drop in a premade group, it treats them all as having their average Elo, and then it places them normally (by trying to put like Elo's together).

Anomalies like what you are describing are a lot more likely to be the result of people having an unrepresentative Elo score (low number of matches played, a lot of time off, trying something new, whatever, etc), or by misjudging the overall skill of a player (high damage doesn't mean you played well, dying early doesn't mean you suck, getting rolled doesn't mean your team was mismatched)

I've been looking for the original explanation of ELO in the command chair and no luck. Redshift do you know where the original explanation of ELO is? Because that'd clear this up immediately. The one where it explains it takes your team, forms an average, and pits it with a similarly averaged team?

[NickFury271]

I just started playing the game in June and I have always been and continue to be a single pug drop player. I played a lot of matches last night and thus far I don't see 12 v 12 being any worse off for me then all the matches I did 8 v 8. I actually find it to be a lot more fun with 12 v 12 there is a lot less running around the map looking for enemies so the fighting gets under way more quickly. I do definitely notice that there is less room for mistakes as the probability of getting focus fired by multiple mechs is greater now than 8 v 8 but I see that as "raising the bar" which pushes me to become a better player. Nothing new here, MWO has not done a very good job helping new players get into the game, but the community effort has more than made up for that. Hopefully with things like UI 2.0 and launch coming MWO will get all the tools in place to make it easier for new players but I don't see 12 v 12 as being as big an obstacle to new players as many seem to think it is.

[Padic]

Koniving, on 07 August 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

I've been looking for the original explanation of ELO in the command chair and no luck. Redshift do you know where the original explanation of ELO is? Because that'd clear this up immediately. The one where it explains it takes your team, forms an average, and pits it with a similarly averaged team?

Well, we're a little off topic anyway.

[aniviron]

travelbug, on 07 August 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

a little op but ill just put it out there:

mechs are supposed to be the ultimate war machines, the pinnacle of human weapons technology.
was your vision of mechwarrior consistent with the present defensive meta where mechs hide behind hills and buildings afraid to stride out in the open, fearing a death in mere seconds?

i do agree that ramboing and running out in open terrain is foolish, but our present meta just pushes the defensive side too much that we have mechs cowering under cover. i dont know but this doesnt seem like mechwarrior to me.

Sure, and we would see mechs striding through the open if this were a game of mechs vs tanks or mechs vs infantry. But mechs are the ultimate war machines, and you know what? The enemy team also brought mechs. Both sides have the ultimate war machines! This means that you actually cannot just stride over open ground and hope to win, because the other team has equipment as good as yours, and the game would be no fun if you could just win because you happened to be piloting a mech and the other team was infantry. Instead, both teams have equally fearsome weapons, which means the side that uses better tactics should (in theory) win. Turns out, not getting hit is a pretty good tactic, which is why you see people using cover so often.

[travelbug]

aniviron, on 07 August 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Sure, and we would see mechs striding through the open if this were a game of mechs vs tanks or mechs vs infantry. But mechs are the ultimate war machines, and you know what? The enemy team also brought mechs. Both sides have the ultimate war machines! This means that you actually cannot just stride over open ground and hope to win, because the other team has equipment as good as yours, and the game would be no fun if you could just win because you happened to be piloting a mech and the other team was infantry. Instead, both teams have equally fearsome weapons, which means the side that uses better tactics should (in theory) win. Turns out, not getting hit is a pretty good tactic, which is why you see people using cover so often.

yes and this is what happens when you do have a map overpopulated by these machines.

[Sug]

Koniving, on 07 August 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

I've been looking for the original explanation of ELO in the command chair and no luck. Redshift do you know where the original explanation of ELO is? Because that'd clear this up immediately. The one where it explains it takes your team, forms an average, and pits it with a similarly averaged team?

http://mwomercs.com/...79-matchmaking/

Scroll down a ways and you'll see that Team average Elo is only used to determine scores after a match. Not for forming teams.

The crazy variance in teammate skill we're seeing is because every new player is assigned an Elo of 1300, the average Elo among players. Because of how Elo is calculated, if you have close to a 50/50 win ratio (as all pugs should), your Elo is most likely not very far from 1300.

So we have players that have months of games under their belts, being teamed up with brand new players. I have about 3600 games played, a KDR of 1.75, and a win/loss ratio of 48/52 (all purely pugged). And i'm STILL getting teammates in trial mechs.


Edit: It's old but look at the graph under the spoiler.

http://mwomercs.com/...25#entry2265225

Most of the players have an Elo between about 1200 and 1400. Since your score only goes up significantly if you beat someone with a higher Elo, and the MM tries to give you even teams, and it's unlikely that you'll beat someone with a higher Elo.....

Yeah scores probably move much less than we think.

Edited by Sug, 07 August 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[Lostdragon]

I played 5 games on my JR7-F last night solo pug and won 4/5. Scouting is more important and so is situational awareness. I did not notice a big change in my results except getting a couple more assists on average but significantly less cbills.

The biggest pain to me was how long it takes to solo cap a node now. I was the only light on my team for one conquest match and I spent half the match doing nothing but standing in squares. I think that was a good change for assault but not conquest.

[Blalok]

^^Agreed. Even with Cap Assist, it felt like I was running a brand new, no basic efficiency Jenner while I waited for that point to turn blue... meanwhile it gave that enemy spider time to saunter over (which is probably the point).

Luckily for me he sauntered un-accompanied...

[CGB Behemoth]

I have a group to play/ but not more than 20% of time. Other 80% i play solo & have fun!

[Parliment]

Nope not ded just diffrent ... adapt

[Koniving]

travelbug, on 07 August 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

yes and this is what happens when you do have a map overpopulated by these machines.

Actually lances would go 4 at a time. Clans run 5 at a time.

What the game is missing is other forms of combat. Infantry, tanks, aerotech fighters -- these were the brunt of any force. We probably won't get that.

However I would not say the issue is we are overcrowded. Quite far from it.

The issue lays in two situations. One, our heat system, and two, instant pinpoint convergence.

The second one is an easy bandaid which may be all we really need. Introduce player head bob or simply apply it to the crosshair. If we move, the accuracy goes down but we still shoot exactly where the crosshair is when we click.
(Demonstration)

We also have the first issue with the heat capacity. When a mech with 22 DHS can reach up into the 80s in capacity when the lore is a limit of 30, and the previously most unbalanced Mechwarrior game in history (Mechwarrior 4) only had a capacity (threshold until shutdown) of 60... something's going to be very, very wrong. Especially when the number of heatsinks you have allows this to rise and fall, but losing said heatsinks does not affect your maximum heat capacity.

Spoiler

Math stuffs! Summary below.

Spoiler

Mech with 22 DHS and 250 or above engine.. Base 30 + (10 engine DHS *2.0) + (12 chassis DHS *1.4) = 66.8 capacity + (10% heat containment *2 for elite) = 80.16 capacity. (In other words, hit 80.16 heat, you shut down).
Cooling (10 engine DHS *2.0) + (12 chassis DHS *1.4) = 36.8 per 10 seconds / 10 = 3.68 cooling per second + (7.5% Cool Run *2 for elite) = 4.232 cooling per second.

80.16 capacity + 4.232 cooling per second for a Master level mech with 22 DHS. With this, 6 MWO medium lasers will bring you to 29.94%.

Now that same 22 DHS if it were possible (which it is not) with a standard 170 engine instead of a standard 250 or above engine?
Mech with 22 DHS.. Base 30 + (6 engine DHS *2.0) + (16 chassis DHS *1.4) = 64.4 capacity + (10% heat containment *2 for elite) = 77.28 capacity. (In other words, hit 77.28 heat, you shut down.)
Cooling (10 engine DHS *2.0) + (12 chassis DHS *1.4) = 34.4 per 10 seconds / 10 = 3.44 cooling per second + (7.5% Cool Run *2 for elite) = 3.956 cooling per second.

77.28 capacity + 3.956 cooling per second for a Master level mech with 22 DHS. That's because you have a 170 engine instead of 250. Meaning lights and mediums who can't mount full size engines, and any engine less than 250 will be gimped. Blackjacks, Locusts, Fleas, Commandos, most stock builds using DHS, etc. Even the Goldenboy's starting engine gimps him. With this, the same 6 MWO medium lasers bring you up to 30.055%.

What's the lore system with the same pilot efficiencies as stated in MWO? (Basically, tabletop appropriately translated to real time).
Mech with 22 DHS, any size engine. Capacity, 30. Period, finito, done, doesn't matter how big or small or how many heatsinks. + (10% heat containment *2 for elite) = 36 capacity. (In other words, hit 36 heat you shut down.)
Cooling (22 DHS * 2.0) = 44 per 10 seconds / 10 = 4.4 cooling per second + (7.5% Cool Run *2 for elite) = 5.06 cooling per second.

36 capacity + 5.06 cooling per second for a Master level mech with 22 DHS. With this, 6 MWO medium lasers will bring you to 66.67%.

Summary: 3 instances of 22 DHS. The first two are in MWO's system. First with a 250 or greater engine, the second with a 170 engine (impossible but done as demonstration), and the third with tabletop in a per second rate with MWO's pilot unlocks.

• First: 250 or greater engine. Full unlocks. 80.16 capacity + 4.232 cooling per second for a Master level mech with 22 DHS. With this, 6 MWO medium lasers will bring you to 29.94%.
  
• Second: 170 engine. Full unlocks. 77.28 capacity + 3.956 cooling per second for a Master level mech with 22 DHS. With this, the same 6 MWO medium lasers bring you up to 30.055%.
  
• Third: Tabletop + MWO full unlocks. 36 capacity + 5.06 cooling per second for a Master level mech with 22 DHS. With this, 6 MWO medium lasers will bring you to 66.67%.

Again note that the first two are with MWO's current system, one with a 250 or higher engine, the other with a 170 engine (an impossible thing to have 22 DHS and a 170 engine, but it's to show that you're gimped no matter how many you carry).
The third is the system that PGI supposedly based theirs on, but then decided tabletop's system was bad because it says entitled to alpha strike 3 PPCs and have 0 heat in an instant... Which is because a tabletop turn of 10 seconds, where they are fired one at a time, 1 second apart, and 7 seconds of waiting and cooling, somehow they decided that a the results of a turn must be how they should count a single second.

In a genuine real time translation at tabletop values, 3 PPCs with 30 SHS, entitles you to fire 3 PPCs one at a time over the span of 4 seconds, and wait the remaining 6 seconds to cool off and return to zero. Or, in MWO it would allow you to alpha strike 3 PPCs, shutdown, start back up at any time and at the end of 10 seconds, you'd be at zero. That hardly says I should be at 0 after firing 3 PPCs in one second.

Which of the two (MWO's system or tabletop's heat system, not even bothering to look at tabletop values though that'd improve it even more) would slow down the fast pace instant death fighting that PGI is supposedly trying to avoid, giving players more time to decide on how to approach situations and cooperate with one another when pugging solo en masse?

Which would allow the solo guy caught by himself a chance to escape his situation if he literally ran for the hills?

Which would put an end to most forms of alpha strikes, with or without the penalty system? o.O;

I should mention MW4's capacity before MekTek's intervention, was 60, and was regarded as the most poorly balanced MW game. MW3, often regarded as the best balanced of the officially made mechwarrior series, was 30 (though not without its flaws). MW2's was 40. MWO's without unlocks for 22 DHS is 66.8. With, it gets above 80.

If players live longer when they make mistakes, they can learn from them and possibly even recover from them. That can't happen with PGI's current convergence and insane heat threshold (capacity, limit to shutdown). Hotter, hotter, and even hotter maps keep churning out to try and alleviate the problem... but it all boils down to looking at what the source of the problem really is.

The rest is just rambling listing past problems with MWO and the solutions PGI came up with. Move along.

Spoiler

After all players could boat in closed beta. Wasn't an issue, everyone had single heatsinks. Automatically 10 capacity lower than DHS at all times. Pilot efficiencies only raised you by 2.2%. None of it caused any issues. DHS gets introduced, no problems because it's too expensive to carry many of them. Missile boats complain of going poor. 80% free ammo. LRM Online becomes apocalyptic. Solution? Repair and rearm gets removed. LRM Online becomes absolutely devastating. ECM gets introduced, LRMs become useless. SRMs and Streaks become the big thing. Turns out SRMs are doing up to 18 or more damage per missile due to a splash bug. SRMs get nerfed. Lasers now overpowered! Raise heat on lasers. PPCs become popular. Heat for PPCs gets significantly lowered (from 11 heat to 8. ER PPCs from 14 heat to 11). PPC is stalled by the fact that PPCs can't hit anything. Speed gets raised. Still cant' hit too well. Ballistics HSR comes in. PPC warrior online begins. Solution? Introduce heat penalty system for boating. Can't be that a PPC generates as much heat as 2 medium lasers.

Last night I went up against 12 players with twin PPCs + 1 or 2 Gauss rifles or 4 PPCs fired at separate times. I'd rather my enemy pump out 4 PPCs at the same time and miss, than take two direct carefully aimed hits of 2 PPCs at a time. But they can fire them, and fire them, and fire them, and never overheat.

It's insane.

Meanwhile I'm using lasers and missiles and all I do is overheat, despite having a 1.67 cooling efficiency rating. I bet theirs is below 1.27 efficiency as that's my own average with 4 PPCs. I'm punished for damage spread weapons, and damage over time weapons, while they are almost rewarded for instant damage weapons.

The issue, ultimately, is even with double armor and double structure, we die in a fraction of the time of a mech's survival time is in lore under identical conditions. An Atlas in tabletop against 12 other assaults slowly entering range might survive 30 to 40 seconds with less armor. Lights significantly longer due to being able to get away.

This is even when you make it so that every weapon in TT can fire twice in a row (turns intervalling 5 seconds rather than 10, yay for Megamek mods)!

Here, we survive 3 to 4 seconds due in part to high alpha strike abilities. One on one the life expectancy is about 6 to 12 seconds. Against a group of 2 it's 3 to 4. Against 12 people when the team refuses to listen to you as to where the enemy is? Yeah...

Edited by Koniving, 07 August 2013 - 09:48 AM.

[Sheraf]

travelbug, on 07 August 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

so ive played a few games today and noticed many things that have been said in these forums.
but of all the big changes, 12v12 makes group play almost mandatory.

sp pugging in 8v8 was not easy as well, but with enough skill, you could change the tide of battle even without communication with your teammates. the same cant be said with 12v12. seldom will one mech acting alone make a difference. and if your team or lance isnt moving towards the same direction or focus firing then the game has actually ended after the initial salvo.

sure, i have had some good wins in sp pugging with 12v12 and sure we will all learn better ways to deal with as we get used to the system. that system however does not favor the single player and winning has become more of a cr#pshoot depending on whether you actually have some premades in your group you can follow or someone who knows what hes doing actually takes command.

and woe to the new player who is limited to trial mechs. with the increased firepower and defensive meta, i can see noobs getting torn to bits in mere seconds after initial engagement. add to this the smaller cbill gain and horrible framerates; and i believe pgi has just made the game impossible to pick up for the new player.

i really dont know what the stats are, but my guess is that at least half the mwo population are sp puggers and this current meta is just a blow to them. it was placed to appease the well formed groups and clans who can more easily bear down their strenghts in such an environment. and they may even be in the vocal minority if the way i see it is correct,

Don't worry about that. I play as PUG all the time, still has my fair share of win and lost.

[EyeDie I]

Firstly Id recommend every new player to get on teamspeak and group up with the guys on there, it really does make this game a lot more fun.
very true, i raidcall with players.
but the game shouldnt require 3rd party programs to be viable.

[AaronWolf]

Get on a Teamspeak, Mumble or some type of VOIP, you will be very happy. Even if you don't have a Mic.

Though I plan to Solo PUG in this new 12v12 situation, I will be more then happy with the outcome. I always love large battles-this will give us even bigger ones.

[CyclonerM]

I am not the first to suggest this,but forgive me if i do it again: the solution to all Pug problems is ..Joining a group! Faction unit, Clan or Merc Corp.. Your game will be better in many ways and there will be more fun

[Sarevos]

Sam Slade, on 07 August 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

This is very true. I'm not a good player, have a crap computer and play with a HORRIBLe ping... but I was stupidly lucky in one of my first 12 man games... killing an Atlas, 2x Stalkers and a Victor in my Victor... before walking face first into a Gaussjager(dead me). Looked at smoking ruin thinking "we've totally got this"...

So the rest of my team got picked apart in scrappy and un co-ordinated fights.. we lost, I was first on my team to die. Puglife is hard but for 12 mans we NEED tonnage and a premades only que for ALL premades.

meh not for ALL anyone dropping in a single lance should still be considered pugging anymore than 1/3 of a full group should be considered premade a lot of people just want to play with a friend or 2 and aren't all that interested in the hardcore scene

[travelbug]

supernachos, on 07 August 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

Nope not ded just diffrent ... adapt

Sure I can adapt. I actually have my damage levels and assists at the same or higher levels and my kills lower with all the kill stealing going on.
Despite getting generally better scores do I feel like I make the same impact as I did previously - no. Am I having more fun now with my higher scores - not really.

[Sarevos]

CyclonerM, on 07 August 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

I am not the first to suggest this,but forgive me if i do it again: the solution to all Pug problems is ..Joining a group! Faction unit, Clan or Merc Corp.. Your game will be better in many ways and there will be more fun

It will be fun for people who wish to do that. There should be an option for both so both pugging and grouping are viable. An ingame lobby and Voip system would do just that