91 replies to this topic

[Kitane]

I wouldn't be surprised if Community Warfare did eventually come with its own way to handle tonnage limits for CW battles. It's a perfect setting for setting up various restrictions on tonnage and composition, even faction based.

Random queue will probably always remain a queue for fun and it shouldn't suffer much restrictions, but PGI should do something to encourage people to drive lights and mediums a bit more often than heavies and assaults. Focusing solely on balanced tonnage on both sides wouldn't help one bit, because as long as there are 40-60% of assault mechs on both teams, the gameplay experience for other three weight classes will be negatively affected.

I wouldn't mind having mediums to become a best c-bill earning class in the game, they were the most cost effective option in the BT universe after all.

Edited by Kitane, 08 August 2013 - 01:17 AM.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 August 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

And what about those of us who want to be an Assault Company???
<-------- Notice the Mailed Fist.

Today I've run into an all ECM Atlas lance, probably a premade. It was fun...fun...fun...hey, what's this echo? Oh, it is me in the room full of people who enjoy being rolled by this exploiting gameplay. Alone. About to leave obviously.

[TexAce]

I would say 750 but would be fine with 720 as well. 650 is a bit too less.

[aseth]

I miss the days when things were weight class balanced. Three lights on one team? There would probably be three lights on the other. Two assaults? Two assaults. Yeah, sometimes it'd be off by one, but then there'd be a medium swapped in for a light, or a heavy for an assault.

Worked waaaay better than today's matchmaker.

[James The Fox Dixon]

I'm a firm believer in having enforced drop limits based upon the lore. As such, I would follow what it is canon on mech formations and Merc units must adopt one of these formations in order to better simulate what mech combat should be like in the BT universe. I'll use Sarna as a reference with my comments in parenthesis and in bold.

• Heavy Assault BattleMech regiments consisted of mainly heavy-to-assault weight BattleMechs and a fourth company of artillery. The main assault force of the SLDF, most corps possessed at least a single Heavy Assault regiment. (In MWO terms this would be a company that is comprised of 1 recon lance and 2 lances of Heavy-Assault mechs. In simpler terms it would consist of 1-4 light mechs or 1-4 medium mechs, 4-5 heavy mechs, and 3-4 assault mechs.)
  
• Battle BattleMech regiments were the core of most BattleMech brigades, consisting of medium-to-heavy weight 'Mechs.(Comprised of 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], 1 striker lance [4 medium mechs], and 1 heavy lance [1-2 medium mechs and 2-4 heavy mechs].
  
• Striker BattleMech regiments were reconnaissance and breakthrough formations. Composed of light-to-medium weight 'Mechs, they also included a Recon company of Land Air 'Mechs, and usually had pairs of ASF assigned for their use. (1 recon lance [4 light mechs], striker lance [1-2 light mechs and 1-4 medium mechs], and a second striker lance [1-4 medium mechs and 1-2 heavy mechs].
  
• Dragoon BattleMech regiments were composed of heavy-to-assault weight 'Mechs, tanks and hovercraft, their primary purpose being to fight against well-equipped enemies. (1 recon lance and 2 lances of Heavy-Assault mechs. In simpler terms it would consist of 1-4 light mechs or 1-4 medium mechs, 4-5 heavy mechs, and 3-4 assault mechs.)
  
• Hussar BattleMech regiments were the most common of the Independent regiments, composed of medium-to-heavy 'Mechs, tanks and hovercraft.(Comprised of 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], 1 striker lance [4 medium mechs], and 1 heavy lance [1-2 medium mechs and 2-4 heavy mechs].
  
• Light Horse BattleMech regiments were primarily reconnaissance units, often the first one dropped onto a world to discover the enemy's strengths. Emphasizing light-to-medium weight 'Mechs and vehicles, at least two companies used dedicated information-gathering units like Ostscouts. (1 recon lance [4 light mechs], striker lance [1-2 light mechs and 1-4 medium mechs], and a second striker lance [1-4 medium mechs and 1-2 heavy mechs].

This should be the ideal drop weights based upon what a unit is classified as. Lone wolves would have to adopt this structure for CW drops. Merc and House units are already classified accordingly. Some exceptions would apply to some Houses like Steiner that fields the most mechs that weigh between 60-75 tons.

[Burakumin1979]

Tezcatli, on 07 August 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

I really don't think they'll be that restrictive. Which is fine. As long as the team that decides to drop with four Assaults is balanced out by either lighter mechs or even less mechs entirely. I'm especially eager to see the latter.

Me too. I think the limit should be 625 and the opposing sides don't HAVE to have an equal number of mechs. So you could end up with 6 assaults vs. a real army of mechs.

Thats closer to fair I would think, and may encourage people to drop their weight a bit and explore mediums.

[Burakumin1979]

Kitane, on 08 August 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Community Warfare did eventually come with its own way to handle tonnage limits for CW battles. It's a perfect setting for setting up various restrictions on tonnage and composition, even faction based.

Random queue will probably always remain a queue for fun and it shouldn't suffer much restrictions, but PGI should do something to encourage people to drive lights and mediums a bit more often than heavies and assaults. Focusing solely on balanced tonnage on both sides wouldn't help one bit, because as long as there are 40-60% of assault mechs on both teams, the gameplay experience for other three weight classes will be negatively affected.

I wouldn't mind having mediums to become a best c-bill earning class in the game, they were the most cost effective option in the BT universe after all.

Reintroduce rearm and repair and costs and watch the number of Assaults drop. People will still run them, when they've earned enough cbills to field them. I know, I know...too much immersion, too much rpg, and not enough first-person," no penalties for poor gameplay, only positive rewards"....got it.

[Vassago Rain]

Limiting weight won't do anything.

Just like the lava on Mordor.

It's really simple. People don't own, or even want to run, bad mechs, so the mechs that'd be submitted to the drops would still be the good ones, which are almost all 65+ tonners. Are you saying they should FORCE players to purchase terrible mediums? Maybe we could have a stimulus package when the time comes. Every player gets a free centurion. Surplus, never used.

Must drop in said cent at least 5 times a day. Failure to comply results in a one week ban. Everybody has to their part in these tough times. If you don't like it, move to a different sphere.

[3rdworld]

Burakumin1979, on 08 August 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Reintroduce rearm and repair and costs and watch the number of Assaults drop. People will still run them, when they've earned enough cbills to field them. I know, I know...too much immersion, too much rpg, and not enough first-person," no penalties for poor gameplay, only positive rewards"....got it.

Make it were only the best players pilot the best mechs.

what could go wrong?

[Randalf Yorgen]

James The Fox Dixon, on 08 August 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

I'm a firm believer in having enforced drop limits based upon the lore. As such, I would follow what it is canon on mech formations and Merc units must adopt one of these formations in order to better simulate what mech combat should be like in the BT universe. I'll use Sarna as a reference with my comments in parenthesis and in bold.

• Heavy Assault BattleMech regiments consisted of mainly heavy-to-assault weight BattleMechs and a fourth company of artillery. The main assault force of the SLDF, most corps possessed at least a single Heavy Assault regiment. (In MWO terms this would be a company that is comprised of 1 recon lance and 2 lances of Heavy-Assault mechs. In simpler terms it would consist of 1-4 light mechs or 1-4 medium mechs, 4-5 heavy mechs, and 3-4 assault mechs.)
  
• Battle BattleMech regiments were the core of most BattleMech brigades, consisting of medium-to-heavy weight 'Mechs.(Comprised of 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], 1 striker lance [4 medium mechs], and 1 heavy lance [1-2 medium mechs and 2-4 heavy mechs].
  
• Striker BattleMech regiments were reconnaissance and breakthrough formations. Composed of light-to-medium weight 'Mechs, they also included a Recon company of Land Air 'Mechs, and usually had pairs of ASF assigned for their use. (1 recon lance [4 light mechs], striker lance [1-2 light mechs and 1-4 medium mechs], and a second striker lance [1-4 medium mechs and 1-2 heavy mechs].
  
• Dragoon BattleMech regiments were composed of heavy-to-assault weight 'Mechs, tanks and hovercraft, their primary purpose being to fight against well-equipped enemies. (1 recon lance and 2 lances of Heavy-Assault mechs. In simpler terms it would consist of 1-4 light mechs or 1-4 medium mechs, 4-5 heavy mechs, and 3-4 assault mechs.)
  
• Hussar BattleMech regiments were the most common of the Independent regiments, composed of medium-to-heavy 'Mechs, tanks and hovercraft.(Comprised of 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], 1 striker lance [4 medium mechs], and 1 heavy lance [1-2 medium mechs and 2-4 heavy mechs].
  
• Light Horse BattleMech regiments were primarily reconnaissance units, often the first one dropped onto a world to discover the enemy's strengths. Emphasizing light-to-medium weight 'Mechs and vehicles, at least two companies used dedicated information-gathering units like Ostscouts. (1 recon lance [4 light mechs], striker lance [1-2 light mechs and 1-4 medium mechs], and a second striker lance [1-4 medium mechs and 1-2 heavy mechs].

This should be the ideal drop weights based upon what a unit is classified as. Lone wolves would have to adopt this structure for CW drops. Merc and House units are already classified accordingly. Some exceptions would apply to some Houses like Steiner that fields the most mechs that weigh between 60-75 tons.

Lore? ok how about the house units? 12th Lyran Guard for one, I know the Dracs had Assault Units as did the other houses. You have drawn select information that only supports your argument and have omitted anything that goes against your thoughts. Omitting them doesn't make them any less valid, it just hides them and makes them shine that much brighter when they are brought back out into the lime light. I say 12 player = 1200T. If you have lights and mediums who know how to make their mech dance they can easily be worth any assault on the field. A Dedicated Spotter Mech (Spider with ECM, BAP, TAG, Advanced Target Decay and a good pilot) will make those LRMs count even after the big baddies have stepped behind a hill. Full Assault Units are in the Lore so they should be allowed here. And I prefer Lights, Mediums and Heavies myself with lights being my most loved.

[Joseph Mallan]

Randalf Yorgen, on 08 August 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Lore? ok how about the house units? 12th Lyran Guard for one, I know the Dracs had Assault Units as did the other houses. You have drawn select information that only supports your argument and have omitted anything that goes against your thoughts. Omitting them doesn't make them any less valid, it just hides them and makes them shine that much brighter when they are brought back out into the lime light. I say 12 player = 1200T. If you have lights and mediums who know how to make their mech dance they can easily be worth any assault on the field. A Dedicated Spotter Mech (Spider with ECM, BAP, TAG, Advanced Target Decay and a good pilot) will make those LRMs count even after the big baddies have stepped behind a hill. Full Assault Units are in the Lore so they should be allowed here. And I prefer Lights, Mediums and Heavies myself with lights being my most loved.

Each House would Modify there unis according to house preference and production capability. House Liao was Primarily a Medium Military, Davions a heavy, Marik and Kurita were well mixed an Steiner was heavy assault. Still they paid some heed to the old Star League TO&E cause the SL had the best Army.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Randalf Yorgen, on 08 August 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Lore? ok how about the house units? 12th Lyran Guard for one, I know the Dracs had Assault Units as did the other houses. You have drawn select information that only supports your argument and have omitted anything that goes against your thoughts. Omitting them doesn't make them any less valid, it just hides them and makes them shine that much brighter when they are brought back out into the lime light. I say 12 player = 1200T. If you have lights and mediums who know how to make their mech dance they can easily be worth any assault on the field. A Dedicated Spotter Mech (Spider with ECM, BAP, TAG, Advanced Target Decay and a good pilot) will make those LRMs count even after the big baddies have stepped behind a hill. Full Assault Units are in the Lore so they should be allowed here. And I prefer Lights, Mediums and Heavies myself with lights being my most loved.

The last sentence of my entire post states that there are some exceptions to the standard rules.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 08 August 2013 - 12:13 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

LIke I said, gang, I was just spitballing to get the conversation going. I went with 675 after modeling out what the average tonnage would be if you went with 2 standard lances (1 Light, 2 Mediums, 1 Heavy) and 1 heavy lance (2 Mediums, 1 Heavy, 1 Assault) which would come out to roughly 635 tons. Thinking that was too light, I upped it to 675 tons to see what I could come up with. The one thing that really stuck out while putting this together was to

• try to create an environment where the Light and Medium mechs could enjoy some quality of life
  
• limit the amount of Heavy and Assault mechs with the hopes of deterring the current game landscape of 60-70% of mechs weighing over 60 tons

Honestly, 675 tons could be too light and we could even bump it up to 700 tons. No matter what the number is, though, PGI is going to have to limit how many of a weight class is represented to prevent games from being 50/50 Lights and Assaults. I'm not only talking about this in terms of PUG games or even Community Warfar but also including the rated 12v12 games. We've all seen the terd ball games and the obscene weight differentiation that is possible there.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 08 August 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[Gulinborsti]

I tried to get some numbers on this the topic together:

The smallest group available is a team of 2 players:

• Average Mech weight (lightest and heaviest): 20 + 100 / 2 = 60

So, 60 tons per player seems to be reasonable to calculate the progression for any number of players in a group.


1 player: 100 (can't restrict solo players)
2 players: 120
3 players: 180
...
12 players: 720

But I certainly don't want the light player in the above evaluation being restricted to the lowest weight within his class. I decided to check on the heaviest Mech in each class:

• Light / Assult: 35 + 100 = 135 / 2 = 67,5
  
• Medium / Heavy: 55 + 75 = 130 / 2 = 65
  
• Light / Heavy: 35 + 75 = 110 / 2 = 55
  
• Medium / Assault: 55 + 100 = 155 / 2 = 77,5

Based on this values I think 65 tons per player is a better value to go with than 60.

max Group Weight = Players * 65

2 players: 130
3 players: 195
4 players: 260
5 players: 325
6 players: 390
7 players: 455
8 players: 520
9 players: 585
10 players: 650
11 players: 715
12 players: 780

With the current system only the following combos have to be taken into consideration:

For groups up to 4:

2 players: 130
3 players: 195
4 players: 260

Total drop weight for a team

12 players: 780

With a linear progression as used above (65 tons per player) it is rather easy to build teams and calculate drop limits.

However, I came up with another evaluation:

(3 * 35) + (3 * 55) + (3 * 75) + (3 * 100) = 795 / 12 = 66,25

Again taking the heaviest Mech for each weight class and putting 3 of each weight class in a 12 player team the top limit for a full team is slightly higher than in my first evaluation.

Let's take the next even number above 66,25 and try out 70 which results in the following limits:

For groups up to 4:

2 players: 140
3 players: 210
4 players: 280

Total drop weight for a team

12 players: 840

Everything below 840 is too restrincting in my opinion.

But then, PGI might come up with a completely different approach ... ;-)

Edited by Gulinborsti, 08 August 2013 - 04:59 PM.

[Wolfways]

Why is a weight limit needed?

[Hellcat420]

i could see something like this in community warfare, but definatly not in pug games. all it would do is punish newer players and people without a lot of mechs to choose from. they should use weight matching, not weight restrictions.

[Dimento Graven]

Wolfways, on 08 August 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

Why is a weight limit needed?

To make sure that those doing 'competitive matches' don't cheat, and slide in an over weighted team member.

Otherwise, it's not really 'needed' just be a nice option to have...

[Joseph Mallan]

Dimento Graven, on 08 August 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

To make sure that those doing 'competitive matches' don't cheat, and slide in an over weighted team member.

Otherwise, it's not really 'needed' just be a nice option to have...

So this stupidity has no effect on my game play. Roger that

[Waking One]

couldn't care less about steiner assault groups, there needs to be both upper and lower limits (mind, mainly talking PUG stuff here, the premades are another thing entirely). Right now there's no point in bringing anything but either a light or assault really, youre actively handicapping your team by dropping in that.

Hell, the old matchmaker was better with its super strict class for class rules. :/

[Dimento Graven]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 August 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

So this stupidity has no effect on my game play. Roger that

Well, sometimes PGI doesn't think about what we're asking for and we get some pretty awful results, so I imagine the first iteration of weight limits, if it ever gets put in, will affect ALL matches made, and that includes, PUG matches as well...

Weight BALANCE being implemented on the other hand, would be a transparent change that no one, outside the competitive match participants would notice.