129 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

An AC/10 with enough ammo to last the whole game should be roughly equal to a ERPPC in terms of weight. That was the case in 8v8. That is not the case in 12v12 because you have to take 2 extra tons of ammo. As a result the ERPPC is superior.

Those 2 extra tons have to be accounted for. Ammo needs at least a 33% increase for 12v12.

[Hellcat420]

thats funny, i havent had to add any more ammo to my builds since 12v12 and it has had 0 impact on my games.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 07 August 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

An AC/10 with enough ammo to last the whole game should be roughly equal to a ERPPC in terms of weight. That was the case in 8v8. That is not the case in 12v12 because you have to take 2 extra tons of ammo. As a result the ERPPC is superior.

Those 2 extra tons have to be accounted for. Ammo needs at least a 33% increase for 12v12.

Ammo is suppose to be limited, an run out in battle if not used wisely. Why do you think Mercs in Canon preferred energy rich builds.

[Khobai]

Quote

thats funny, i havent had to add any more ammo to my builds since 12v12 and it has had 0 impact on my games.

The only way it would have 0 impact on your games is if you consistently die before the end of the game.

Because more enemy mechs means more armor/internal to destroy, so if you consistently survive until the end of the match, that absolutely will have a profound impact on how much ammo you need. I constantly run out of ammo in 12v12, often doing 800+ damage and getting 5 kills myself... and I have switched to dual ER PPCs on most mechs as a result because getting capped at 800 damage due to lack of ammo is BS.

Quote

Ammo is suppose to be limited, an run out in battle if not used wisely. Why do you think Mercs in Canon preferred energy rich builds.

Which is a dumb argument. Because why use ballistic weapons at all if energy weapons are both superior and preferred over ballistics? They need to be equal or the choice to use energy or ballistics is not really a choice at all.

Edited by Khobai, 07 August 2013 - 03:01 PM.

[Purlana]

6 tons of UAC ammo, and 3 tons of SRM ammo doesn't last if I survive till the end of the match. Lucky I got 2 medium lasers...

Usually I end up with just 1ML, after my right torso is gone.

Edited by Purlana, 07 August 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[Felbombling]

AntiSqueaker, on 07 August 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

I've run 4 tons of AC/20 ammo in my Huchie since 12 v 12, and I run out about 15-20% of games (counting the roughly 50% games I die in, because I'm not super leet like everyone else). I don't just spray and pray either, I only fire when I can hit targets.

Cabusha, on 07 August 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

I've been running 4 tons of ac20 ammo for months now in my wang, and it does just fine in 12 man. Normally I either lose the arm early or finish the match with a round or 2 to spare. Feels fine.

Both the above 50-ton Mechs would be served just fine by two tons of ammunition, according to the technical readouts. This is the issue… if you settle on twice the ammunition allotment based on in game experience, it seems fairly logical that the ammunition stores are insufficient to defeat the doubled armour values. Hey! That match seems to work out perfectly!! Double the ammunition bin levels from table top levels and it almost looks like things would be balanced. Go figure.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 07 August 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

Which is a dumb argument. Because why use ballistic weapons at all if energy weapons are both superior and preferred over ballistics? They need to be equal or the choice to use energy or ballistics is not really a choice at all.

Wrong answer. They were cheaper(no reload cost) not superior. You use Ballistics cause they are cooler than Energy weapons an can add a heavy punch with less heat. Same with Missiles. It is also why most Mechs carry a mix of weapons, to have a balance of punch and endurance. You want energy weapons for prolonged fights.

[AntiSqueaker]

Purlana, on 07 August 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

6 tons of UAC ammo, and 3 tons of SRM ammo doesn't last if I last the entire match. Lucky I got 2 medium lasers...

Well there's your problem. UAC/5 = 9 tons. BOOM. There's a ER PPC and 2 Heatsinks. 6 tons of Ammo for UAC and 3 tons for SRM Ammo? Boom there another ER PPC and 2 Heatsinks. Just put more heatsinks in to replace the SRM launcher and you're golden.

There; build is 100% optimized.

[/sarcasm]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 August 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Ammo is suppose to be limited, an run out in battle if not used wisely. Why do you think Mercs in Canon preferred energy rich builds.

And in Canon, my AC/20 Hunch could 1-shot most mechs under 45 tons, lasers hit different sections as opposed to ballistics, etc etc etc, everyone has heard this argument rehashed at least 100 times. Canon is nice and all, but a long tired reason for balancing a fast paced PvP game.

[Hellcat420]

Khobai, on 07 August 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

The only way it would have 0 impact on your games is if you consistently die before the end of the game.

Because more enemy mechs means more armor/internal to destroy, so if you consistently survive until the end of the match, that absolutely will have a profound impact on how much ammo you need. I constantly run out of ammo in 12v12, often doing 800+ damage and getting 5 kills myself... and I have switched to dual ER PPCs on most mechs as a result because getting capped at 800 damage due to lack of ammo is BS.



Which is a dumb argument. Because why use ballistic weapons at all if energy weapons are both superior and preferred over ballistics? They need to be equal or the choice to use energy or ballistics is not really a choice at all.

quit acting like you have to take on 12 enemies with an 8man team, your being a drama queen. ammo is fine, if you run out of ammo maybe you should play better and stop wasting ammo.

[Tombstoner]

Ammo based weapons should do more damage then energy weapons. The balance being you run out of ammo at some point and damage output from energy weapons overtakes and exceeds ammo based weapons. This would be accomplished with fire rates.

moving to 12 vs. 12 does mean that if your loosing you will run out of ammo. but you should have a damage advantage to compensate so time to kill with ballistics should be shorter then energy.

I dont think the game is anywhere near capable of balancing this out. why are erppcs not at 15 heat.... they do more damage at longer range and weight the same as ppc's with no minimum.
the current heat levels is insufficient for this benefit and kinda nerfs ballistics....

Ammo needed to be doubled from TT values when armor was doubled. i dont think this happened. 1 ton of ac-20 ammo should be 10 rounds minimum. its currently 7 on smerfy.
on sarna its 5 but thats when an ac-20 meant something deadly.

[Khobai]

Quote

Wrong answer. They were cheaper(no reload cost) not superior. You use Ballistics cause they are cooler than Energy weapons an can add a heavy punch with less heat. Same with Missiles. It is also why most Mechs carry a mix of weapons, to have a balance of punch and endurance. You want energy weapons for prolonged fights.

Except in the current meta, alphastriking is king, which means heat is largely a non-issue. Because you pop out of cover, fire all your weapons, then retreat back into cover and cool off. Heat really only matters when youre trying to sustain DPS (i.e brawling) which is not really how the game is played at the moment. I run multiple ERPPCs, never have heat problems, and consistently do more damage as a result of not being ammo dependent.

If brawling was more prominent in the game I might be more inclined to see your viewpoint as ballistics have a very real advantage in sustained dps. But thats not how I play the game anymore. Brawling is inferior to sniping most of the time because proper sniping allows you to do massive damage while taking little or no damage in return. The ERPPC is simply too dominant of a weapon over ballistics.

So I really dont think a small ammo increase is too much to ask for if it helps get players like me to stop using nothing but ERPPCs.

Edited by Khobai, 07 August 2013 - 03:20 PM.

[Purlana]

Hellcat420, on 07 August 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

quit acting like you have to take on 12 enemies with an 8man team, your being a drama queen. ammo is fine, if you run out of ammo maybe you should play better and stop wasting ammo.

I don't waste ammo, and sometimes I still run out. How much UAC ammo should be enough?

Edited by Purlana, 07 August 2013 - 03:14 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

When this topic was first brought up, and until playing 12v12, I was in the camp that said that the extra 4 players on one's own team would make up the damage needed. Having played 12v12, my views have changed. Maybe it's just my own experiences, but the extra players seems to only be pushing the number of players who accomplish roughly nothing in the game, more often than not. Game after game I was seeing a few decent scores and a lot of chaff. The only time I counted, there were 6 players who didn't top 100 damage, and 2 more that didn't reach 110, and one somewhere in the 130's. There's simply no reasonable way to expect the 3-4 mechs doing all the work to put out enough damage with the current ammo supply.

[Gulinborsti]

No need to rush in on this topic.

So far, I had few problems with running out of ammo, although I survived a lot of 12 vs. 12 games.
But then, I never play a mech relying on a single type of weapon ... mixed weapon builds FTW?

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 07 August 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Except in the current meta, alphastriking is king, which means heat is largely a non-issue. Because you pop out of cover, fire all your weapons, then retreat back into cover and cool off. Heat really only matters when youre trying to sustain DPS (i.e brawling) which is not really how the game is played at the moment. I run multiple ERPPCs, never have heat problems, I consistently more damage as a result of not being ammo dependent.

If brawling was more prominent in the game I might be more inclined to see your viewpoint as ballistics have a very real advantage in sustained dps. But thats not how I play the game anymore.

Then you found your fix for ammo dependence already. It was also a staple fix for Mercs in Canon. Ammo has its costs, we lost actual price as a issue now we need to decide One more medium laser or another ton of AC ammo. Thinking man's game.

[Xmith]

I can't imagine PGI adding more ammo per ton. Adding extra ammo will hamper pilots ability to learn this game.

Learning how to manage your loadout is half the fun.

[Joseph Mallan]

Purlana, on 07 August 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

I don't waste ammo, and sometimes I still run out. How much UAC ammo should be enough?

How many back up weapons are you willing to give up?

[Khobai]

Quote

but the extra players seems to only be pushing the number of players who accomplish roughly nothing in the game

Exactly. In 12v12 about two-thirds my team is completely useless. And I have to pick up the slack for them.

Quote

Then you found your fix for ammo dependence already.

That is not a fix. Its picking the blatantly better of two choices.

Both should be equally viable choices. That is proper game design: when a player is presented with two more more choices, all choices must be equally beneficial, or they are not really choices at all.

[Purlana]

Khobai, on 07 August 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

Exactly. In 12v12 about two-thirds my team is completely useless. And I have to pick up the slack for them.

I have noticed that per game there are usually ~3 teammates under 100 DMG.

[orcrist86]

energy weapons: Unl ammo/ high heat
Ballistic weapons: limited ammo/ low heat
Missile weapons:limited ammo/ medium heat

Ammo doesn't need a buff, players need to decide how they are going to balance their build for a long term engagement. fighting in a battlemech is about limited resources. Limited tonnage, limited heat capacity, limited speed, limited ammo. Everything should be a trade off. There is no easy solution. You should have to debate on that extra ton of ammo versus a medium laser. Choose wisely and survive the match, choose poorly and be defenseless.

Edited by orcrist86, 07 August 2013 - 03:29 PM.