36 replies to this topic

[Foxfire]

1) Size of the mechs are massive compared to the two adjacent mech classes, with many of the chasis greatly outsizing light mechs but on par with many heavy mechs.

2) Limited speed with many chasis being on par with the speed of most heavy mechs.

With mechs like the Centurian and Kintaro being on par in size with the bulk of the heavy mechs out there and with only the Trebuchet falling into that 'between light and heavy' speed range(with the Cicada being competitive in speed with lights and the rest being on par with heavies).. it is no wonder that most medium mechs get ripped apart in the field with the current high pin point alpha meta that currently exists in the game.

IMO, they really need to re-scale mediums to make them fit a little closer in size as an 'inbetween' of the light and heavy.. and more mediums are needed that aren't on par speed wise with most heavies.

Oh.. and just an FYI but I mostly pilot light mechs.. but I want to see my medium brethren have a more prominent role on the battlefield.

[Trynn]

I am a born and bread Medium pilot (huchback), and in the early days with limited mechs we held our own, we could out move an atlas, but had the weight/speed to deal with lights. these days, you are correct, I am hoping that they eventually put in weight restrictions on dropps and mediums find a niche again

[Shadey99]

Since I love my Cicadas I've adopted the role of overwatch on lights, using my somewhat higher firepower (twice what I mount on my 5D Spider) to deter enemy mechs. Though sadly I cannot run through an enemy group like I can in my Spiders and hope to survive, so instead I have to circle a fight taking cover as I go.

I'm worried when I eventually get my Shadowhawks that I'll end up being unable to run from Dragons, Quickdraws, and Victors who will all outgun and out armor me... Heck I've had some Dragons and Quickdraws chase me all over a map because I couldn't pull far enough away...

Edited by Shadey99, 07 August 2013 - 02:53 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Size is definately an issue. The Hunchback and Blackjack are about the only mediums with the correct sizing and it does make a huge difference on viability when it comes to how well a medium mech can survive.

Speed, not so much. I used to run alot of Centurions, all with stock engines, and never found myself massively disadvantaged because of it because your still more agile than in a heavier chassis. You just have to play to this advantage to be successful.

Shadey99, on 07 August 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

Since I love my Cicadas I've adopted the role of overwatch on lights, using my somewhat higher firepower (twice what I mount on my 5D Spider) to deter enemy mechs. Though sadly I cannot run through an enemy group like I can in my Spiders and hope to survive, so instead I have to circle a fight taking cover as I go.

I'm worried when I eventually get my Shadowhawks that I'll end up being unable to run from Dragons, Quickdraws, and Victors who will all outgun and out armor me... Heck I've had some Dragons and Quickdraws chase me all over a map because I couldn't pull far enough away...

I feel for Cicada pilots. In 95% of the cases, a Jenner is a better choice in every way. Speed, firepower, size or at least some combination of the three.

As far as the Shadowhawk, no your not going to be outrunning Dragons, Quickdraws and some Victors. However you should be able to mount roughly equalivant firepower to Dragons and Quickdraws and any Victor that can keep up with you will roughly have the firepower of a Centurion. Also you going to be smaller and more agile than the QD and Victor plus have JJs which will give you tons of mobility options the Dragon won't have. In the end I think they will probably hold their own ok.

[MonkeyCheese]

I use my 3M cicada all the time as it is fast, but as for other mediums I own, my 2 blackjacks are collecting dust as 1x cant really boat energy weapons that well anymore and my 1 just seems useless as a sniper in 12v12 matches may just slap an ac20 on that one. -Edit large ballistics still work fine.

I also have a mastered treb m7 that I dont even use anymore, its just too big, and speed plus streaks on it are not that useful anymore, that and its a walking wall.

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 07 August 2013 - 04:48 PM.

[Tennex]

If i had my way

[Khobai]

Quote

If i had my way

I mostly agree with your scaling but your Jenner is way too small. Jenners need to be bigger.

[Tennex]

Khobai, on 07 August 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

I mostly agree with your scaling but your Jenner is way too small. Jenners need to be bigger.

yeah i did scale it up a tiny bit (red for scale up) i wouldn't mind if they were bigger eithe

[Shadey99]

Viktor Drake, on 07 August 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

I feel for Cicada pilots. In 95% of the cases, a Jenner is a better choice in every way. Speed, firepower, size or at least some combination of the three.

Don't feel to bad for us... I can't upload an image at the moment, but I've had many 500+ damage runs with my X-5 4 ML+2 SRM6 or CDA-2A with 2 LL+4 ML. They both reach a quite acceptable 133 kph. I prefer builds Jenners can't really do or make use of the extra 5 tons.

[Jman5]

The speed is definitely a factor on several medium mechs. On the one hand, you have this massive speed gap between many of the medium mechs and all the light mechs. Conversely there is often very little if any speed difference between the mediums and heavies. Many of the mediums feel like slower and weaker heavies. I've got lights going 50kph faster than me and most heavies going a mere 5 kph slower than me.

My hunchback's weakness is palatable on the battlefield. People see me as an easy mark. A free kill to pad their stats. A simple to hit mech that crumples quite nicely. It's like blood in the water when people see a hunchback in a crowd of mech. Oh look something I can pop a few times and then move on to something more dangerous. We're not fast enough to be hard to hit, we don't have weird debris hitbox issues like the Centurion, and we're not armored enough to take a lot of hits.

PGI keeps releasing mech after mech with higher engine caps. And they keep refusing to do a pass on the Hunchback. It's frustrating because the low engine cap is utterly indefensible. It's simply a matter of them not bothering.

[General Taskeen]

Jman5, on 07 August 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

PGI keeps releasing mech after mech with higher engine caps. And they keep refusing to do a pass on the Hunchback. It's frustrating because the low engine cap is utterly indefensible. It's simply a matter of them not bothering.

My Hunchback-4G Founders Mech is one of my most frustrating Mechs to play in the current gameplay.

While scaling itself is also an issue, the drawing of the hitboxes is equally as frustrating on some Mechs.

[Johnny Reb]

Not only the size but the nerfs to streaks have decimated my fast mediums. Still can run a 2 erppc 118 blackjack, just not my former fav 135 cent-D. Streaks just suck!

[Deadmeat313]

I agree that scaling is an issue. I think that Mediums should be globally scaled down - and Lights should be globally scaled UP.
(Part of the problem for Mediums is that Light Mechs are too attractive due to their tiny size.)

This will not in itself make Medium Mechs better than other weight classes. Indeed, in the original BattleTech boardgame Heavies and Assaults were objectively better than Medium Mechs. They carried more firepower and armour, leaving the Mediums with a dubious mobility advantage. That the boardgame had though was a selection of game balancing features to choose from:

1) Battle Value. A score based on a very complicated formula that makes stronger Mechs cost more.
2) Weight limit. The DropShip can only carry so much!

Many players would use both, fixing a battle size at a certain BV within a set weight maximum.

In canon, Medium Mechs are justified by economic factors. Quite simply, a Medium chassis is a cheap way to get a decent amount of firepower onto the field. For this reason, I think players should be given an economical reason to pilot them. eg Repair/Rearm costs scaled by Mech weight class? - so Light pilots pay the least and Assault pilots pay the most.
Additionally, kill/assist payouts could be scaled by the killer and victim's relative weight class. A Medium would get a better reward for killing a Heavy than if the Heavy killed the Medium, maybe?

Further balancing suggestions:

1) Scaling, Firepower and Mobility should roughly scale smoothly between the weight classes:
I've mentioned scaling above, but the intent is as follows:
A Heavy pilot who meets a Medium should find that his opponent is noriceably smaller than him, with perhaps a noticeable mobility advantage.
A Medium pilot should find that a Light Mech is similary *somewhat* smaller than his own Mech, with a similar modility bonus over him.
Assault Mechs - being the most powerful - should also be (on balance) the largest and slowest on the field.

The above would smooth out the currently uneven size discrepancy between Light Mechs and everything else. At the same time though, a fast Light should expect to be the fastest thing on the map, barring another Light. A Medium pilot should expect to be outrun by Lights, but he in turn can outrun most Heavies, etc etc.

But of course there are exceptions. The Cicada is an honorary Light. The Dragon and Quickdraw are honorary Mediums. There are several Mediums that have roughly the same mobility as a Heavy. There are good and bad designs. Knowing your own Mech and knowing your opponents' likely capabilities will still be key.

[Foxfire]

IMO, I think that heavy (with the exception of the QD) and lights have the right 'general' scale(i'd scale the raven down a touch and the jenner up a touch and the QD down a touch). Assaults need to be bumped up in size and mediums need to be scaled down to fit more in between lights and heavies.

I think it would be a big mistake to scale lights up in general because they don't have the armor to deal with it. Most of the issues with hitting lights has little to do with the size of the mechs but issues with HSR and latency.

[HammerSwarm]

Tennex, on 07 August 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

If i had my way

Your scaling looks to be reasonable.

IMHO part of what is holding medium backs are as a battle role. Everything a medium can do can be done better in a heavy with no penalty because the one factor that limits drops in battle-tech is tonnage.

Then the factors that should be an advantage to us, size, mobility, etc. are not advantages. We're not much faster than anything else, and the scaling makes little to no sense.

An example: The Hunchback 4(J) http://mwo.smurfy-ne...68d131f33948f39
I use mine as an LRM boat, it's fairly effective in this role, I am speedy and I still have some medium lasers to hop in the brawl when my payload is empty. It's not a sexy load out, and it's not the perfect missile boat either.

If I bring this to a 12v12 I am hurting my team by surrendering tonnage because there isn't a drop limit. Giving up ammunition and armor when I could bring an awesome, an atlas, or a stalker

You can do that over and over and over for brawlers, snipers, support roles. You basically don't need mediums in the meta game. So instead of being the backbone of forces because we can do everything at the least amount of weight. We're useless because weight isn't a factor.

Making mediums better isn't the solution, although I won't complain. Limiting the weight of drops is.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jman5, on 07 August 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

The speed is definitely a factor on several medium mechs. On the one hand, you have this massive speed gap between many of the medium mechs and all the light mechs. Conversely there is often very little if any speed difference between the mediums and heavies. Many of the mediums feel like slower and weaker heavies. I've got lights going 50kph faster than me and most heavies going a mere 5 kph slower than me.

My hunchback's weakness is palatable on the battlefield. People see me as an easy mark. A free kill to pad their stats. A simple to hit mech that crumples quite nicely. It's like blood in the water when people see a hunchback in a crowd of mech. Oh look something I can pop a few times and then move on to something more dangerous. We're not fast enough to be hard to hit, we don't have weird debris hitbox issues like the Centurion, and we're not armored enough to take a lot of hits.

PGI keeps releasing mech after mech with higher engine caps. And they keep refusing to do a pass on the Hunchback. It's frustrating because the low engine cap is utterly indefensible. It's simply a matter of them not bothering.

Somebody needs to tell my poor lil Cab-Opener he's supposed to be dead then! Since I refitted my HBK-4G, it's had a total reversal of KDr. Sure if I get exposed to focus fire, I'm going down, and I don't have the speed and wonky hitboxes lights do to escape. But since switching builds, I have jet to find a Catapult, Cataphract or Jagermech I couldn't outduel. (Which surprised even me, tbh).

I can't think of the number of times my inferior Hunchback was backing up for it's life, no room to maneuver, and trading shot for shot with those guys only to watch them go down first, in a hail of AC/20 and MG rounds.

So am I sayin gthat slow mediums are on even footing with Heavies or Lights? Not really, but I don't think it's as bad as an instant death sentence either. I know I can't wait to see the mobility buffs. Might be enough to land me back in the control couch of my Hunch or Centy full time again! (Though I will miss my Victor's JJs if that happens!) But after driving Jagers, Phracts and Victors for so long,my HBK might be slow, but it feels like a ballerina in comparison.

[Anjian]

Shadey99, on 07 August 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

Since I love my Cicadas I've adopted the role of overwatch on lights, using my somewhat higher firepower (twice what I mount on my 5D Spider) to deter enemy mechs. Though sadly I cannot run through an enemy group like I can in my Spiders and hope to survive, so instead I have to circle a fight taking cover as I go.

I'm worried when I eventually get my Shadowhawks that I'll end up being unable to run from Dragons, Quickdraws, and Victors who will all outgun and out armor me... Heck I've had some Dragons and Quickdraws chase me all over a map because I couldn't pull far enough away...

The Shadowhawk has a base speed of 86kph. That's faster than the Quickdraw. Well, that's the same basic stats as the Kintaro actually, 55 tons/86kph. If PGI has not messed up with the Kintaro's center torso, the Kintaro could have helped rejuvenated the Medium category.

Its likely PGI will maintain the 55ton/86.4kph ratio as they appear to be interested in improving mobility and shifting the game's weight center towards a lighter mean. That means they got an interest to make mediums more competitive. It is likely they will also bring aboard the last two Dougram related Unseen medium mechs to the game, the Griffin and the Wolverine, and both fit in the 55kph/86kph category of medium mechs.

Just so long they don't mess up the size and the center torso.

And hoping they would fix the Kintaro's size and CT as well.

[Shadey99]

Anjian, on 11 August 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

The Shadowhawk has a base speed of 86kph. That's faster than the Quickdraw. Well, that's the same basic stats as the Kintaro actually, 55 tons/86kph. If PGI has not messed up with the Kintaro's center torso, the Kintaro could have helped rejuvenated the Medium category.

Stock QDs yes. But I have QDs/Dragons with 360 engines hitting 110 kph that hunt down my Cicadas on a fairly regular basis. Roughly 20 kph won't have you gain distance between 2 mechs very quickly. It's very hard to pull ahead and away with only a 20 odd kph difference in speeds. Even less so without JJs.

I even find 90 kph Victors every dozen games or so being used on the enemy team. Which means a Victor can equal a stock Shadowhawk, but have way more armor and at least equal firepower. Unless something changes that battlemaster will be another candidate for 'fast assault' as well.

While in TT 90 odd kph (roughly 60 mph for those like me that don't think in metric) is a solid speed. In MWO with only max engine ratings to keep heavier mechs from competing in that same speed range we run into a problem. While speed is a trade off for a larger mech, it isn't as bad as it is for a medium. Heavies and assaults have tonnage, it's what makes them heavies and assaults. So it should be no surprise they have issues making mediums competitive.

[Dreamslave]

Size and to a lesser extent, speed. As you said OP. If PGI could scale the mechs properly and make Mediums much smaller than they are now and also do a few passes on speed scaling, the word of MWO would be a much better place. But they have SO MUCH they need to fix, I wouldn't doubt to see this game dead in the water in a few months.

[Byzan]

I play the Quickdraw, it plays like a medium in terms of speed and damage but is the size of an assault and requires 1 ton jump jets (makes it hard to fit) >.<

the scales are screwed up, but I dont think it will ever be fixed. Shame because just a few small changes would do the trick.