77 replies to this topic

[GRiPSViGiL]

The low amount of CB earned now makes Premium worth more I think. Couple that with a Hero Mech and it probably feels about right.

I have yet to activate my premium due to work schedule at the moment and I don't have a Hero Mech but I know when I activate and get one I will no doubt see and feel the different in CB gains.

Hopefully they are doing the metrics that will lead to a rewards adjustment that makes most of the people happy. You can't please everyone but non-paying people should suffer the grind.

[TheNose]

GRiPSViGiL, on 10 August 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

The low amount of CB earned now makes Premium worth more I think. Couple that with a Hero Mech and it probably feels about right.

I have yet to activate my premium due to work schedule at the moment and I don't have a Hero Mech but I know when I activate and get one I will no doubt see and feel the different in CB gains.

Hopefully they are doing the metrics that will lead to a rewards adjustment that makes most of the people happy. You can't please everyone but non-paying people should suffer the grind.

Exact! Premium is worth more now!

Since mech prices haven't change a player without premiumtime or a hero mech is even further away from a new toy ingame than before.

So we want a new mech, costs us 10 million CB

So the only important question is, how many games would it take to earn 10 million.

Let's say we have a player, that did prepatch a average of 100.000 CB per match.
Would be with premium and a heromech 180.000 CB. Excuse me if I'm wrong with the excact bonus.

So it would take the player 10.000.000 / 100.000 = 100
Or if he's choosen to pay 10.000.000 / 180.000 = 56


What have we now? The day after the financial crisis?
Let's assume the decrease in income is a total of 40%

Would give the bad non paying customer just 60.000 CB per match, poor soul.
And with premium and hero there would be 108.000 CB and the sad feel of beeing a poor man.

Our dreammech would need 10.000.000 / 60.000 = 166
And the real world money spent brings us to 10.000.000 / 108.000 = 93

So, as noone never questioned, MWO has become much harder for anyone who has invested money.
Even more, if games now really take longer.
Compared with a former non paying player a premium player is nerfed by around 8%.
Compared by himself, the non paying player is nerfed by 66%.

[CarpetShark]

Dreamslave, on 09 August 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

There is so much wrong with this I can hardly even process the sentence.

We're so very glad you took the time to comment on it, then.

Since you seem to have trouble with the base statement "An Atlas will take 100 matches to buy now," let me flesh it out for you.

My average CBill intake per match since the patch is about 80K. I play mostly lights. When I'm playing my Catapults, though, I'm not seeing much -- if any -- more than this on average, though (high of ~160K, low of ~30K). Between this and the increase in very miserly "wins by cap" on Assault Mordor, I have no doubt that this average will remain more or less accurate.

A stock Atlas D-DC costs 10,486,012 CBills. It will therefore take me about 131 matches to earn enough space bucks to buy it. And a further 100 or so to upgrade it.

(As an aside, at an average of 10 minutes a match for 231 matches, it will take 38 and a half hours of play time to buy this one single mech and upgrade it.)

So, to sum up: 80K average income equals 131 matches to buy a stock Atlas D-DC.

There. That wasn't so hard, was it?

Edited by CarpetShark, 11 August 2013 - 12:08 AM.

[ChuChuRo]

TheNose, on 10 August 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

So who doesn't pay, should not post opinion other than your opinion. That dear Sir is surely not the stupidity I'd be jealous off.

I'm sure he doesn't mean you shouldn't post your opinion here, neither do I. But as this is a discussion about premium time, your opinion on it might not be worth much until you have actually experienced it in game.
So of course you are allowed to post but you should really ask yourself how much you can constructively contribute to this discussion.
Because disguised digs at premium time users and trying to artificially set them apart from other players to maybe stir up the discussion and provoke an argument is a classic example of trolling and indeed quite the opposite of constructive contribution.

TheNose, on 10 August 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

Exact! Premium is worth more now!
Since mech prices haven't change a player without premiumtime or a hero mech is even further away from a new toy ingame than before.
So we want a new mech, costs us 10 million CB
So the only important question is, how many games would it take to earn 10 million.
Let's say we have a player, that did prepatch a average of 100.000 CB per match.
Would be with premium and a heromech 180.000 CB. Excuse me if I'm wrong with the excact bonus.
So it would take the player 10.000.000 / 100.000 = 100
Or if he's choosen to pay 10.000.000 / 180.000 = 56
What have we now? The day after the financial crisis?
Let's assume the decrease in income is a total of 40%
Would give the bad non paying customer just 60.000 CB per match, poor soul.
And with premium and hero there would be 108.000 CB and the sad feel of beeing a poor man.
Our dreammech would need 10.000.000 / 60.000 = 166
And the real world money spent brings us to 10.000.000 / 108.000 = 93
So, as noone never questioned, MWO has become much harder for anyone who has invested money.
Even more, if games now really take longer.
Compared with a former non paying player a premium player is nerfed by around 8%.
Compared by himself, the non paying player is nerfed by 66%.

All this math and you still couldn't prove your initial point on how premium time is worth more now. I guess what you're trying to say is that non-premium players have been hit even harder. But since premium is always a percent bonus to regular C-Bill earnings, all players will always be hit the same by a nerf.

[GODzillaGSPB]

TheNose, on 10 August 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

You pointed it out very well.


So who doesn't pay, should not post opinion other than your opinion.


That dear Sir is surely not the stupidity I'd be jealous off.

No. You don't pay, you don't invest into the game. I do and have therefore an invested (literally) interest in getting something for my money. You, as someone who does not pay, obviously don't care. But why then stick your nose (yeah sorry...uninteded pun here I guess) into these affairs to start with and call names?

Okay, but let's start over. What I should've done is ask you instead: Why do you think we demand too much? Why do you think we're acting over-entitled. Can you explain your position?

Because I have already bolstered my opinion with multiple arguments. With the price (that is as high as in an MMO per month), with the fact that it grinding feels too slow even though I pay and with the sheer fact that the initial idea of PGI - more players equals potentially more money earned - simply does not hold true.

Your turn.


PS: I see you already did add some content to your position. Good. Question: How many of these games does the player in question has to win? Please don't say 100%...because I'm gonna start crying.

Since (afaik) the matchmaker is trying to get your w/l to 1:1, you'd have to double those figures. And that only if it holds true. I feel like having a w/l-ration under 50% to be honest.

[frag85]

If you play to get'em all and then don't know what to do, you're doing it wrong.

[MaddMaxx]

Telemetry, on 08 August 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

I would be cool if Niko Snow could have commented on the issue rather than just move the topic without anything helpful to add.

That is because Niko is smart, or at least smart enough, to know better than to get involved with this lot, ever.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 13 August 2013 - 09:40 AM.

[Bjorn Fjord]

With the reduction in C-bill payout and poor XP even with wins I also feel like this is a waste. I am now getting the XP and c-bill I got when I was not premium. Granted the payout and xp would be worse yet without premium but it seems like the value of the premium has been greatly reduced and as such my money has been wasted. I don't think I will renew or buy anymore premium items as I already bought the big Phoenix bundle. Once the Phoenix time is used up that will be it unless they sort out the xp and c-billl issues.

[Jzaltheral]

This entire thread reminds me of the ISK/hour discussions over on the Eve-O forums, and the clamoring that goes on anytime something changes that disrupts that holy min/max equation.

Games get balanced. Deal with it.

That said, this particular change doesn't seem to have been very well thought out. The 12 v 12 mechanic was going to reduce individual player rewards in some fashion - I think it was overkill to apply a blanket nerf on top of that until the changes to earnings shook out from the 12 v 12 change itself.

Also, premium time - love it. Combined with bonuses from the Hero mechs, I feel like taking a Scrooge McDuck in my C-Bills.

Edited by Jzaltheral, 13 August 2013 - 10:27 AM.

[soapyfrog]

GODzillaGSPB, on 08 August 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

I won and got 144.000 cbills. It's in the startpost. I won two more games and got around the same each time. This is not in the startpost but I'm telling you now.

Post your end game stats and we can easily calculate how much you would have made before the patch (all these numbers are well known except for salvage values).

I think you'll find it's more like a 10-20% reduction.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Well I recorded 5 games, won 3, lost 2 with an average winings of 90,000 (highest 124k, lowest 35k).

NOTE: those results seem A-typical of recent losing streak, however my memory may be tainted by the bad match, and I may be overlooking the good ones. So I will assume those results are a good representation.
90k is still 50% lower than my calucated 130k average, meaning premium time is 50% less valuable.
90K is 80% lower than my documented 160K stats page.

So the 50K number I cited was exagerated (likely because you remember those brutal beatdowns more than the PUG rolls). But I still cannot justify paying for premium time when the value is 50% lower than a week ago.

Spoiler

[SovietArmada]

The problem is the C-bill reduction, while i understand it, it had a really negative affect.

For example, i had a 1k damage 4-8 game in my Hunchback 4H. I only made 210k c bills with prem. Now, on my games where i average 700 damage with a combined total of 8 or more kills/assists. I make around 170k with prem, that's absurd, way too little for performing best in my team usually.

Here's what really drives me crazy, if i have an average game, or even a bad game, i will still make around 150k with prem!? What is the incentive to play better? I basically make just as much if i was to loligag around, their new formula is awful

[Burakumin1979]

GODzillaGSPB, on 08 August 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

. This allowed me to make about a million CB with 4 wins. Now I need 8.

....so you can buy a new mech every 20 - 80 wins, minus the income gained from losses.

I understand they nerfed what it was...but does every game have to be give me something for nothing?

No no, I get it, You should be able to buy 1-2 mechs every night you play for 2-3 hours......dot dot dot

Where...where did this spoiled, entitled mentality come from?

[mack sabbath]

The new currency system is just a dirty way to make you spend real life cash on hero's & premium time so you can maybe break even with the standard pay we got previously.

if you are lucky enough to not be caught pugging, then forget it, nothing will help you.

[soapyfrog]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 14 August 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Well I recorded 5 games, won 3, lost 2 with an average winings of 90,000 (highest 124k, lowest 35k).

Here is what you would have earned pre-patch, assuming 50% salvage nerf:

1) 150462
2) 127289
3) 128210
4) 36750
5) 87450

Total pre-nerf: 530,161
Total post-nerf: 450,013

15% less cbills overall. Had you run premium you would have earned 225,007 more c-bills, only you can say if that is worth it to you.

Note 1) the extent to which salvage was nerfed is not known, I use an educated worst-case guess of 50%
Note 2) the worse you do the gentler the nerf; on your worst games you would have just barely earned more before the nerf. This is because the base reward for playing, and the resource gathering reward for conquest were not nerfed + no salvage for defeats. The more you make, the more you will feel the nerf.
Note 3) games seem to be longer by some amount, so that affects your rate of c-bill earning per unit time on top of the basic nerf.

Your earnings fall well below your average of 160k, possibly because that average on the stat page counts premium time, and possibly because this 5 game run is not representative of how well you usually play (or 12v12 is just harder, which has been my experience)

Quote

So the 50K number I cited was exagerated (likely because you remember those brutal beatdowns more than the PUG rolls).

I fall victim to this all the time, only when I force myself to go and objectively analyse the stats and my performance do I see how biases affect my perception.

SovietArmada, on 14 August 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Here's what really drives me crazy, if i have an average game, or even a bad game, i will still make around 150k with prem!? What is the incentive to play better? I basically make just as much if i was to loligag around, their new formula is awful

Formula has not changed, just some of the values have been tweaked down. To be clear, it was pretty much just as profitable to lose before the patch, and has been that way since they abandoned R&R.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

This exercise has helped me realize where all the C-Bills are bleeding from. In addition to the raw reduction in rewards, and the longer match times, I realize that a considerable amount of my previous income was generated from a 2:1 win loss ratio, which dropped to a 1:1 ratio (or lower) since 12v12.

However, the argument isn’t about how the C-Bills are drying up; they just are. And the removal of C-Bills has a direct impact on frequency of my MC purchases.

But more importantly (to PGI), my decision to forgo premium time because a perceived or actual devaluation means I am earning even few C-Bills per month than anticipated.
(90,000 C-Bills/Match) x (8 match/hour) x (4 sessions/month) x (6 hour/session) = 17,280,000 C-Bills/month

Which is about half of what I was making previously while purchasing premium time. So now instead of spending $20 every month for mech bays, GXP conversion, hero mechs, etc; I am projected to spend $20 every two months since that is how long it will take to generate the same amount of C-Bills.

TLDR;
The more C-Bills I earn the more MC I spend on support and maintenance items (Mechbays, Heroes, GXP, paint), less C-Bills I earn, for any reason, reduces the amount of MC I spend proportionally.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 14 August 2013 - 04:01 PM.

[soapyfrog]

Yeah I definitely agree if you are foregoing premium you are probably earning half of what you earned with premium, pre-patch.

The question is, how much of a buff to earnings would have to occur to get you buying premium again?

[Unrelenting Farce]

Read you loud and clear. I am pissed that my premium is a joke now. Had a dozen days left before the patch, and I have made enough money to buy two centurions IN THAT ENTIRE TIME.

I know how long it is supposed to take to get a mech, as I have 25.

Thanks, PGI. I gave you the benefit of the doubt in every way before, but now I'm just pissed because you took my money and decided to screw me without fixing it in a prompt manner.