96 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

Roland, on 08 August 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

Actually, 12v12 does indeed break up the deathball somewhat.. or, at least, it enables it.

While many teams do just cluster in a giant ball, this is actually less effective than spreading out a little. The main reason is just that in many positions, with 12 men, it's impossible to focus fire anyway. You block each others' firing lines.

In cases like that, the team that flanks around the other team and envelops them, without splitting their forces too much, tends to win.

Me and my son flanked a "blob" last night and in succession called in air-strikes on them as they stood there waiting for someone to peek over the ridge on Frozen...

It was priceless to watch them scatter like roaches when it began to rain...

You'd think they'd move when the red smoke puffed but they stood there watching it like it was some 4th of July novelty smoke bomb!

Better yet, the moderate damage they took made a difference once my team rallied as several of them dropped quickly due to secondary damage...

Arty doesn't work well often, but when it does... it's fun stuff.

Edited by DaZur, 08 August 2013 - 05:34 AM.

[Shadey99]

I've seen (& been on the losing end of) a 12:1 match. I btw got the 1. I only play PUGs (because I don't have a mic or headset and don't really want one, so even if I did join a voice chat server I couldn't ask for a team) and typically I find that if one side loses half their mechs and the other side does not it's going to end in a stomp. I've actually been the lone survivor who encounters 8 mechs focusing on it. Nothing is living through the combined fire of 8 other mechs even the hard to hit Spiders.

Splitting up in 12v12 doesn't make sense because if your unlucky and your lance hits the spot where all 12 of the enemy are you will die in short order. Now it's 12v8 and your side is at a disadvantage. If those 8 are all grouped maybe they can pull off a win, but usually the 8 just can't pull off a victory anymore.

I also get alot of games with massive 6-8 light mechs (typically a commando or raven, a couple spiders, and lots of jenners) and maybe a single lance worth of heavies and assaults. Like this caustic map game where the lights all rushed to the enemy cap and the 4 of us not in lights at the time ran into the enemy force before we even got past the center hill bulge. The enemy sent half their group back and our lights kept trying to cap instead of dashing away. They demanded we come save them, but we were already engaged. All but 2 lights died horribly. The heavy/assault group had killed four of their team, but then the enemy force gathered all 8 of their side and we put up a fight, but they had a big weight advantage (5 assaults, 3 heavies). I recall the final score being 5:12. If the lights had broke and all run back to us we may have won, bad tactics and being underweight make fairly bad games.

[Redshift2k5]

I see more like 20% rolls

[Yankee77]

DaZur, on 08 August 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

12v12 allows a teams to suffer reduction in force strength and still be competitive... In 8v8 1 or 2 teammates down early on in a match almost guaranteed a rolfstomp due to being overwhelmed both numerically and by shear strength of power.

12-0 will occasionally happen but it's not nearly as prevalent as 8-0 rolls.

Reduction of force strength is more granular...

EXACTLY. 12v12 actually IMPROVES the situation.

Of course, the converse is that it's possible for you to win your brawl, and yet have your team decimated elsewhere... but that's warfare for you. But the fact is we get a lot more fighting and brawling nowadays.

As for the perception of seeing more "rolls"... all I can say is confirmation bias is biased.

[Blackadder]

DaZur, on 08 August 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

12v12 allows a teams to suffer reduction in force strength and still be competitive... In 8v8 1 or 2 teammates down early on in a match almost guaranteed a rolfstomp due to being overwhelmed both numerically and by shear strength of power.

12-0 will occasionally happen but it's not nearly as prevalent as 8-0 rolls.

Reduction of force strength is more granular...

nothing has changed, yes the 12 0 rolls are far less likely, but matches are decided before you even start, at least if you play solo. Just got through running 10-15 matches this morning, at least 10 of them were pure steamrolls, 6+ had 7-9 mechs with less then 100 points of damage between them on my team. another 4 had us rolling the other team, with similar results. Last 3 were actually enjoyable because the teams were relatively matched, so there was some back and forth between the teams.

game has gone to ****, and i fail to see how any new player is going to actually enjoy this type of game play, because its going to be a lot harder on them, then some average player like myself, who has hundreds of millions worth of equipment and mechs to play with already. 12V12 has removed enjoyment from the game for me, because it does not allow my play styles on smaller maps, and brings out the worst aspects of the MM, meta and all that other bs. Meh, Clans bailed out anyway but a few of us, guess its time for me to go as well.

[Yankee77]

Shadey99, on 08 August 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

Splitting up in 12v12 doesn't make sense because if your unlucky and your lance hits the spot where all 12 of the enemy are you will die in short order. Now it's 12v8 and your side is at a disadvantage. If those 8 are all grouped maybe they can pull off a win, but usually the 8 just can't pull off a victory anymore.

See, what I've seen is the opposite: in 12v12 there's more splitting up, partially because capping is now more prevalent (even with the slower speed, in conquest almost all my 12v12s ended with one team reaching 750, and in assault capping is still quite effective since usually more mechs are trying to cap, making it cap faster AND making it harder to stop the cap), because lights are more likely to avoid the big groups, and because overcrowding generally leads to people splitting off to hit a flank.

I guess blobbing can still be an issue, especially for a defensive team.

That said, one thing is certain: you shouldn't split off unless you've got good mobility. or you know where the main enemy force is located and you know where to flank.

[FatBabyThompkins]

I've been on and received the 12-0 roflstomp. I've also seen it whittle to one on one and been the last Spider (without a leg mind) vs. an Atlas (intense conclusion that had everyone on the seat of their pants). It is so random and chaotic, I seriously doubt there is any way to balance these matches to give fairness. We're talking about ELO, mech, weapon, map, teams and on-the-fly decision making and trying to create a fair play for everyone. It will not happen. 12 vs. 12 is great when you're the one stomping, horrible when you're losing and awe inspiring when it has resulted to a duel of two mechs. I agree that 100% 12 vs. 12 is a bad idea, but they're likely trying to get as much data as possible right now. Personally, I like both. At first, I did not like 12 vs. 12, but now, playing with the mobile cannon (the PPC Spider, which is wholly broken, but frustrates the hell out of the PPCWarrior), I was having fun.

[Goose]

There was a brief spout of recon when seismic was nerfed, but that ended with 12v12, where everyone wants to hide in the pack …

[Sprouticus]

Khobai, on 08 August 2013 - 02:30 AM, said:

pretty much. 12v12 is just deathballing. An individual is no longer able to make a significant difference. In 8v8, 1 person could kill like 4 mechs and win the game singlehandedly. In 12v12 even when I kill 4 mechs my team still somehow manages to find a way to lose.

I will repost from another thread:
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Kunae, on 08 August 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

In this vein, individual effort can be just as effective now, but requires a different method.

Rather than silently "pwning" half the enemy, take initiative and provide some basic leadership, especially on the larger maps. It makes a huge difference on the behavior of your teammates, most of the time.

It's more effective than being a leet sniper, too, as you gain reputation with the community.

I get that. And it is understandable. But the fact is with the current matchmaking, if you are doing 1200 dmg and getting 4-6 kills, you are probably a much higher ELO than your teammates, and the MM system probably balanced you with 2-3 really bad player. And until they tighten up the matchmaking system as Matthew Craig indicated in his post this week, that is going to happen. Ezspecially with people on the high high end of ELO.

Try dropping with a friend who is not very good


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Jake Hendricks, on 08 August 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

Having only played a handful I'm finding it's a lot more dependant on your team. on 8 vs 8 a single player could turn the match but now it needs a bit more of a team effort. Saying that my first match I got 3 kills and 5 assists - we won with 2 mechs on our side I think.

My only concern is the matches are very top heavy in weight, maybe 2 lights with the same heavies then the rest can be assaults.

And if you get a well organised team against when in a PUG then you can really be hammered badly. Solo mechs in a team don't really work (if they ever did I suppose)

We must be in different ELo's. I am seeing a LOT more fast mediums and lights. Last night on my first drop we had ZERO assaults. The other team had two. We did not use our speed to our advantage, and we lost. But saying it is all assaults is incorrect.

Edited by Sprouticus, 08 August 2013 - 07:19 AM.

[Purlana]

Most matches I played up end up with a score of 12-4. Once one side has gained momentum the blob of death can't be stopped.

[Ph30nix]

it doesnt help either that alot of people are having so many performance issues they can barely play at times.

i have a good machine that used to run this game max settings with a perfect 60 fps constantly now the second i see enemy mechs i start sputtering and freezing.....

[I am]

Blackadder, on 08 August 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

nothing has changed, yes the 12 0 rolls are far less likely, but matches are decided before you even start, at least if you play solo. Just got through running 10-15 matches this morning, at least 10 of them were pure steamrolls, 6+ had 7-9 mechs with less then 100 points of damage between them on my team. another 4 had us rolling the other team, with similar results. Last 3 were actually enjoyable because the teams were relatively matched, so there was some back and forth between the teams.

game has gone to ****, and i fail to see how any new player is going to actually enjoy this type of game play, because its going to be a lot harder on them, then some average player like myself, who has hundreds of millions worth of equipment and mechs to play with already. 12V12 has removed enjoyment from the game for me, because it does not allow my play styles on smaller maps, and brings out the worst aspects of the MM, meta and all that other bs. Meh, Clans bailed out anyway but a few of us, guess its time for me to go as well.

Can we have your stuff?

[Windsaw]

My experience with PUG games now is that rolls have gotten less frequent.
At least four to six down on the winning side seems to be the usual
This may still seem to be a roll by some players but usually it is relatively lately (relatively to 8vs8) decided which side gets the upper hand.

Really, this is enough for me.
IMO the gameplay has improved with 12vs12.

[Purlana]

Windsaw, on 08 August 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

My experience with PUG games now is that rolls have gotten less frequent.
At least four to six down on the winning side seems to be the usual

12-4 is still pretty much a roll.

[Odins Fist]

Khobai, on 08 August 2013 - 02:30 AM, said:

12v12 is just deathballing.
An individual is no longer able to make a significant difference.

I'm going to have to disagree with that blanket statement..
.

.
.

Edited by Odins Fist, 08 August 2013 - 07:44 AM.

[Rugarou]

Some ancedotal evidence for yall. Had a couple matches yesterday that we were down 3-4 mechs in the first couple minutes. We came back and evened out the numbers down to 2-3 left on each side. At that point, it was anyones game and the individual pilots left really determined the outcome. So yes in my view, the individual pilot still has a significant impact on the match. But, team play is a must throughout the whole match. 12v12 is right were the game needs to be.

[Twisted Power]

I have had games of both stomping and down to the last man. I did not see more of one or the other. Maybe you just had some bad drops.

[Corbon Zackery]

It's not just 12vs12 that's making these rolls happen this morning

I had a stalker his tag was locked on and he had his lasers linked to just auto-fire until he overheated.

Arm-lock is making a huge weapon convergence issue. I watched one guy get cored by a arm-lock guy every beam had near perfect convergence on the CT.

The smaller maps like River City and Forest Colony way to small for 12vs12 the frame rate on a i5 game computer is down to 9-10 frames per second, and my ping is up from 40 to 70 on small maps with a few random spike disconnects. I'm also rubberband now when your playing a light going 137kph, and you rubberband into a wall its not fun.

So it pretty fubar right now. All I can say is hang in there and hope it gets better.

These dev. are raw rookies who never made a 1st person shooter before. Their cutting corners on testing left, and right to make the October 15th deadline had they done 12 vs. 8 testing in house I think they would held off on 12 vs. 12.

That deadline is 2 months away. We haven't seen any split up into factions, the dev. are short on maps for community warfare. In game timeline going to need to be rolled back because Clans are not ready. Their having issues still with weapon balance. Mech design is behind schedule the Flea and Orion were put on hold.

Its a huge mess right now not enough positives to out way the negatives. They really need to get organized if they want to be a top 20 game by Christmas.

Edited by Corbon Zackery, 08 August 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[Skyfaller]

The reason for the rolls is poor design.

Small maps with 12 people ...and big maps that literally have bottlenecks all over the place which makes it really be nothing more than 4 small maps stapled together.

Lights and mediums hardly have the chance to use mobility to flank. Heavies and assaults are forced to slug it out face to face in a noobrush or a sniperkiddie battle.

Premade exploiting has gone from being very annoying to being game-breaking. Why, yes... its lovely when your 100% pug team faces 100% premade sync team that is chock full of ECM mech, LRMs and PPCs.

[Lefty Lucy]

Purlana, on 08 August 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

12-4 is still pretty much a roll.

Compared to closed beta with 8-man premades when nearly every game was 8-0? Getting 4 kills is hardly a "roll" especially with the way the game tends to snowball.