43 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

wormxwood, on 22 August 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

Screenshots of 3pv giving massive advantages.

The objective of this thread is to present and discuss ways in which 3PV can be used to enrich MWO by seamlessly integrating it as a core element of the game's Information Warfare aspect. As such, you spamming those same photos just indicates you're just a troll.

Now go away if you have nothing constructive to say.

[MourningZero]

How about make the 3PV module the default equipment if no other modules are installed. So it's not something you actively place on a Mech, it's what exists on the Mech if you haven't placed anything there yet. This means newbies don't have to fret over installing it, we don't have to worry about the cost of the module in CBills or slots, and it will never interact with other modules.

Then give it a much greater delay (5-10 sec?) when switching modes, to prevent more advanced players from still fielding the 3PV module to squeeze out the best of both views.

[Sadist Cain]

still acting like PGI actually listens to feedback?

Reasoned, well worded and logical.
expect this...

[Mystere]

****** Cain, on 23 August 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

still acting like PGI actually listens to feedback?

Reasoned, well worded and logical.
expect this...

Why do you think Bryan said this?

Quote

After designing, developing, and testing the MWO’s 3PV, we quickly realised that 3PV offered no significant advantage over 1PV. In fact we found each mode had pros and cons that played well with each other. This revelation changed our initial 3PV plans and we postponed Hardcore mode (separate queues for 1PV and 3PV), in favor of rethinking the idea and offering up a different solution that also addressed a few more community wish list items.

[Deathlike]

Unfortunately, PGI's communication issues are documented well enough... the problem is that they aren't even saying they are going to improve communication within the company. This "wish list" idea won't work because it is unlikely the playerbase will receive the benefits of it until AFTER launch... like private lobbies. If "launch day" was the closest thing to Christmas... I wouldn't bother leaving cookies for "Santa"/PGI because I expect "coal"/nothing.

[3urningChrome]

MourningZero, on 23 August 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

How about make the 3PV module the default equipment if no other modules are installed. So it's not something you actively place on a Mech, it's what exists on the Mech if you haven't placed anything there yet. This means newbies don't have to fret over installing it, we don't have to worry about the cost of the module in CBills or slots, and it will never interact with other modules.

Yes! it provides an introduction to MWO that is easy to use, but you are limited to no modules.
I like this a lot.
(+ it should be pretty easy to code for too)

[King Arthur IV]

free module is what i would start with. all trail mechs and newly bought mechs will have it installed as standard to avoid confusion when first starting the game.

[StandingCow]

This is certainly better than how it's in game now. If you were going to go the module path for new players, I would suggest make it free, and have it installed by default so the player has to actually remove it eventually.


I would also personally like to see 3PV changed... instead of typing it all out I will just copy paste what I wrote on reddit:

"I think 3rd person view DONE RIGHT would help new players... the way it should probably be done is lower the view, and make the mech transparent... but have the entire mech in your field of view including the legs. This gets rid of the peeking over stuff problem, and solves the not being able to see your legs problem. The current system feels rushed and buggy... You know what would help new players more? A good tutorial, give new players the tools and knowledge they need to function in 1PV mode.

The other problem with this impacts both competitive and pug play... before 3PV it was risky to see what was around the bend or over the cliff because you might suddenly run into the entire enemy team and take fire. That is no longer a problem, now you just pop your invincible drone out, and peek using that... yes they will know you are there but you take no fire. So, it takes the risk away from trying to gain battlefield knowledge."

Edited by StandingCow, 24 August 2013 - 06:25 PM.

[Mystere]

StandingCow, on 24 August 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

This is certainly better than how it's in game now. If you were going to go the module path for new players, I would suggest make it free, and have it installed by default so the player has to actually remove it eventually.

I have the "free" part already covered.

As for having the module installed by default, that is a good idea and I did consider it. But, the reason I did not put it in my list is because people who love to collect mechs will eventually have a whole bunch of equipment with zero c-bill value. I was hoping that new players would at least be informed that they will need to get and equip one to be able to use 3PV. Or was that that too much to ask of PGI and new players?

Edited by Mystere, 24 August 2013 - 06:39 PM.

[StandingCow]

Mystere, on 24 August 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

I have the "free" part already covered.

As for having the module installed by default, that is a good idea and I did consider it. But, the reason I did not put it in my list is because people who love to collect mechs will eventually have a whole bunch of equipment with zero c-bill value. I was hoping that new players would at least be informed that they will need to get and equip one to be able to use 3PV. Or was that that too much to ask of PGI and new players?

Good point, maybe there is some sort of way to make it a.. "Ghost module" for lack of a better term... meaning when you take it out or go to put a new module in... it will just disappear... perhaps with a warning that once removed it cannot be re-added...

[Johnny Z]

/like

[Mystere]

StandingCow, on 24 August 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

Good point, maybe there is some sort of way to make it a.. "Ghost module" for lack of a better term... meaning when you take it out or go to put a new module in... it will just disappear... perhaps with a warning that once removed it cannot be re-added...

Well, my idea is that 3PV be made a regular module like all others, thus making it a part of everybody's decision-making process when choosing which modules to equip on a mech.

[StandingCow]

Mystere, on 24 August 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

Well, my idea is that 3PV be made a regular module like all others, thus making it a part of everybody's decision-making process when choosing which modules to equip on a mech.

Fair enough... but like I said before, I think this thread is a good start to offering a solution, just based on the ideas in your OP I think that would make 3PV mixed with 1PV acceptable to at least myself.

[Maethos]

Mystere, on 08 August 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Just putting my suggestions here too:

• make the drone a deployable item with a delay
  
  • delay prevents instants switching between modes
    
  • duration will need tuning
• display a distortion while switching between views
  
  • creates a mental disconnect
    
  • duration will need tuning
• make it a zero-cost module that occupies 2 slots
  
  • great for new players
    
  • experienced players will have to include 3PV in their module decision process
    
  • might be a problem for mechs that have only 1 default slot
• make it suffer at least the same visual degradation experienced from the cockpit when shot at
  
• allow it to be destroyed
  
  • How much damage?
    
  • How many drones does a mech have?
• integrate the drone with the UAV module, with the former as default equipment and the latter as an upgrade
  
  • Why even have two separate UAVs?
• reduce the intensity or even eliminate that annoying blinking light that can be seen from way too far
  
• give it compressed 360 degrees of vision, possibly as a pilot module upgrade
  
  • similar to a BT neurohelmet's vision
    
  • hardcore mode?

It is of course assumed that the obvious bugs (e.g. legs not being seen on many mechs) will be fixed.

Information warfare aspect could be worked ,but still comes at the cost of the simulation value. http://mwomercs.com/...lemech-16-flea/

If you read the battlemech flea post, its a good example of what was expected of MWO, promotes team work and once you add 3pv in, can't be recreated.

So far everyone is worried about peeking over and around corners and no one is touching on how it effects the role of light mechs. On the assumption that current bugs will be gone and light will become fragile again. Being fast,small and able to stay in blind spots is the core of good light mech piloting. No amount balance can be struck to fix this IMO without making 3pv unusable or light mechs becoming a dead class.

Again I would ask for someone to address collisions,knockdowns and melee as to how it will work with combined 1pv and 3pv. When we had knockdowns the dragons were running over everything, and was exploited like any competitive edge will be. So in 3pv every mech would be able to see and just run into lights and finish them off with a pointblank alpha.

Which brings us to a flavor of the month, fast heavy mech, with high pointblank alpha potential, no need to aim as you would just fire as you run into and knock them over, fire again and rinse and repeat as necessary. only balance that makes sense is no knockdowns and collisions, that would suck in my book. If they added melee, MWO could like rock'em sock'em robots

To try and break 3pv down to just one aspect of the game(informational warfare), and how it could work but not think about how it effects current and future features or modes is just plain shortsightedness IMO.

Maethos

[Mystere]

Maethos, on 25 August 2013 - 12:39 AM, said:

...

So far everyone is worried about peeking over and around corners and no one is touching on how it effects the role of light mechs. On the assumption that current bugs will be gone and light will become fragile again. Being fast,small and able to stay in blind spots is the core of good light mech piloting. No amount balance can be struck to fix this IMO without making 3pv unusable or light mechs becoming a dead class.

...

To try and break 3pv down to just one aspect of the game(informational warfare), and how it could work but not think about how it effects current and future features or modes is just plain shortsightedness IMO.

As a light pilot myself, I don't have an issue with 3PV for at least three reasons:

• I will still have a lot of places to hide in and a lot of ways to be sneaky at, 3PV or not.
  
• I will still be able to use the enemy's own eyes (or sensors) to deceive them (i.e. What they see as information is actually misinformation). I've done it with seismic and I am confident I can still do the same with 3PV.
  
• I can obviously use 3PV myself to further enhance my scouting and misinformation capabilities.

Good light scouts will be able adjust their tactics accordingly. The not so good one might want to start trying another role.

Edited by Mystere, 25 August 2013 - 12:59 AM.

[Maethos]

Mystere, on 25 August 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

As a light pilot myself, I don't have an issue with 3PV for at least three reasons:

• I will still have a lot of places to hide in and a lot of ways to be sneaky at, 3PV or not.
  
• I will still be able to use the enemy's own eyes (or sensors) to deceive them (i.e. What they see as information is actually misinformation). I've done it with seismic and I am confident I can still do the same with 3PV.
  
• I can obviously use 3PV myself to further enhance my scouting and misinformation capabilities.

Good light scouts will be able adjust their tactics accordingly. The not so good one might want to start trying another role.

That's my point, your doing this in the current state of game. lights atm have some questionable issues and we both assume many bug fixes, balance and optimization. when this happens is where how well the lights will fare. In beta they have come ,gone and back again. What is next depends on how things progress, at this point it hasn't been smooth by any means, and yes all games have ups and downs but with less then a month away from launch we should be hammering out those bugs and tweaks, instead of picking sides and endless banter.

This battle imo should have been pushed back, 3pv may be able to work not in a rushed state as it is. Many idea's are floated out there to help with the 3pv cause but no time to get them tested and live at launch. MWO will be reviewed sept. 17th as is not what we think is coming or it could work. this seems to shaping up poorly. I may be proven wrong and welcome it as I want MWO to succeed.

Last note, if you can do all you say, then your far from the average player that will be trying MWO in the very near future. If match making stays the same would be cannon fodder to you. For competitive players using 3pv would be necessary to keep up with other using it and in a round about way become mandatory. like you said 'evolve or die" or devolve depending how fall on this issue.

Anyways good hunting
Maethos

[PhelanKerensky]

I can live with the idea of making 3pv a module.

With regards to the module taking up 2 module slots and how you can implement this on mechs with just 1 slot, may I suggest this work around:-

The module takes up 2 slots in mechs that have 2 or more slots available, but mechs with only one slot can always load this module regardless. We don't need an in game justification for this, because it makes the idea practical and only hampers the hard core players who almost without exception didn't want 3pv anyhow. So the new players can use any mech regardless of module slots, and the hard core players, if they really want to use 3pv still can but have to make serious compromises on modules loaded and on mech chasis as a result (assuming they want additional slots for other modules).

I still believe that 3pv is best placed only in the Training Grounds or in the first 25 matches played as a new player. As such 3pv could then be improved to show more of the mech (such as the legs) to aid the stated reason for having such a feature. But if we are stuck with it in it's present incarnation, then the module idea is one that may be made to work better than what we have now.

This would encourage new players to ditch this module as soon as they have the mech movement figured, so as to allow them more freedom to load more useful modules such as seismic.

Taking this idea to its logical conclusion, you could state that it takes up ALL of the available module slots (1 to 4) so as to prevent its use except for new players or those who are prepared to sacrifice all other modules. Competitive players would not want to touch it then as there are better modules for competitive play, but new players would understand they can use it, but would need to move away from it once they have movement figured out. As such you could do without separate queues, avoiding splitting the player base and appeasing those of us who never wanted 3pv in the first place.

This is of course a half way house that will not please everybody, but it may go some way to show both new players and vets alike that concerns have been listened to and are being addressed by PGI.

[Ryan Steel]

I think the OP is definitely pointing 3PV in the right direction. I think his suggestions are excellent, albeit the 2 module slots can be tricky. I was thinking perhaps that on mechs with only one slot you can still use it as it still takes away that slot from another module which is the point. After you master it, the result is the same; you still can't use the extra slot for anything else.

How do you guys feel about having a limited number of times to switch between views?

Edited by Ryan Steel, 26 August 2013 - 04:28 AM.

[Prezimonto]

Make it a free 1 slot Module for all, normally indestructible.

Make the player's screen go to TV fuzz for 3 seconds when switching views.

Make the 3PV destructible in community warfare and give holders of the module a couple of 3PV drones (maybe 3). Get rid of the blinking light if you can destroy it. Instead, make the drone have a target indicator that can be locked onto if within range following all the normal rules.

While I like a lot of the ideas (other than it taking 2 module slots) in the OP, I'm aiming low with the idea that the Dev's are more likely to implement something simple than something complex.

[FREDtheROLF]

Prezimonto, on 26 August 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

Make the 3PV destructible in community warfare and give holders of the module a couple of 3PV drones (maybe 3). Get rid of the blinking light if you can destroy it. Instead, make the drone have a target indicator that can be locked onto if within range following all the normal rules.

This sounds like a really advanced UAV.

Does PGI have some stats how often modules like
UAV and A* strike are used?
This would make the UAV somewhat useful.


FtR