42 replies to this topic

[Chronojam]

Storm Fox, on 09 August 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

I am one of the folks who have forked out a lot of cash hoping this game would be more then a sub-par team shooter in mechs. As it stands now, I am done giving PGI any more money.

The way the game plays now it is nearly I find it hard to believe that the Houses would ever bother spending millions of c-bills on a warmachine that lasts all of 6-10 seconds in 1 vs 1 combat, and should you survive that 1 on 1, you are highly unlikely to survive a second combat.

I played the original table top Battletech, and I feel 100% that the randomized hit locations were part of what made the game great. A mech could get lucky and survive through several skirmishes with luck. In MWO its totally become a game of quick coring and speed kills. This is NOT fun overall. It LOOKS like Battletech, which is awesome!!! Sadly, it has not even come close to FEELING like Battletech, and this is what we BT fans are looking for here.

PGI, take a cue from World of Tanks.... they too went through a period on their beta where most Tanks could get 3 shotted and be knocked out of action in seconds. The WoT dev's wisely decided, that people play a game to have FUN, and dieing in 6 seconds of combat is not fun. So they made the tanks more durable, to give players more PLAY time per match. Seriously consider making mechs more durable! This will gives player a chance to learn and adapt to the battle they are in. More time IN battle is MORE fun, this equals MORE players spending MORE money.

I very much agree with this, and it's one of the reasons I asked Paul about mech time-to-live and health adjustments in this past week's Ask The Devs. Your concerns appear to align with those of #saveMWO and I'd encourage anybody who is on-board with you to hop into that thread, talk about these issues, and have a listen to the latest townhall meeting recording.

Mechs need to stomp around longer, and not start dropping dead until they've given it their all (or suffered a lucky hit). It's a little disappointing that most mechs are cored out long before they're ineffective fighting machines. How often do you lose an arm or a leg these days, or even a heatsink or weapon system, before your mech explodes? There's no sense of being a durable, rugged, century-old war machine that changed the face of combat.

[AncientxFreako]

Lostdragon, on 14 August 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Personally I would really like to see how the game felt if they cut all damage across the board in half. I would love to see that go to the test server.

In my mod of mech3 the first thing I did was cut weapons damage across the board by 30% because I wanted multiplayer battles to last longer and I believed at the time defensive skills in the game would become more appreciated. Unfortunately multiplayer was long dead by this time and this could not be tested. I think it was a good idea though. In single player it certainly did the trick.

[GingerBang]

Storm Fox, on 09 August 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

Same feelings. I just can not wrap my head around how quick a mech can be cored with relatively little damage. Who would design and field such a pathetic weapon of war, let alone try to pilot one

Unless it is a BIG heavy or an assault mech, it generally feels like my internals are stronger than my armor. That is just silly.



It has been sad watching this game drift farther and farther from battletech and continuously go down hill since closed beta.

Edited by GingerBang, 16 August 2013 - 04:04 PM.

[K0M3D14N]

No. No. Nonono. No. Noooooo. Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

I cannot even -begin- to list how bad an idea it is to have a roll of the dice determine when and how or if at all where I put my crosshair is where my rounds actually go. The game immediately becomes far less about 'who is the better pilot' and becomes immediately 'who is the luckier pilot' and that is a really bad idea. If this were a turn-based RPG? Sure, no problem. Whatever. I'm cool with that. In a game where control is supposed to be directly in the users hands, however, taking any of that away is bad.

I agree that instant, pinpoint damage is a bad thing and really hurts this game but I will vehemently oppose any sort of dice-roll-to-hit suggestion because it's incredibly stupid. If I lose to another MechWarrior, I want it to be because I was outplayed and outskilled- not because he was luckier than me. I would instead suggest another way;

When you target another 'Mech and put your pipper over it, the targeting computer begins to calculate convergence and begins to make minor adjustments to weapons alignment to ensure a solid hit. For most weapons, this won't take long- a half a second, maybe more. The closer you are to the weapon's optimal range, the less time you need to keep your weapons on target. However, it begins to take exponentially more time the closer or further away you are to/from your target. This does not remove player skill from the equation, however, because a pilot will still be able to 'fire from the hip' as it were.

Without a firing solution for convergence, the 'Mech's weapons will fire directly ahead of where they are mounted on the 'Mech. A MechWarrior with deep knowledge of his 'Mech will be able to compensate, thereby eliminating immediate pin-point high-damage alphas, making it more difficult to hit, small fast 'Mechs, and completely allowing for player skill all at the same time.

[Johnny Z]

More cockpit and ct armor would be great.

[Bishop Steiner]

Storm Fox, on 09 August 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

Same feelings. I just can not wrap my head around how quick a mech can be cored with relatively little damage. Who would design and field such a pathetic weapon of war, let alone try to pilot one

been playing Battletech TT since 1987. Love it. That said, if this game ever becomes a game of papercuts, where I have to shoot a mech 100 times to get it down, then it becomes boring to me. In TT (aka putting the Battletech back in) there were many a mech I could 1 shot. Here, I dump a full alpha directly into the back of a Commando, with an AC20, 3 SRM6 and 2 Medium lasers (66 pts) and even if it registers, he survives and runs off.

Supposedly we have doubled armor. That would imply, that a total of 48 pts should be required to completely core thru a fully armored Commando, front to back. (TT is 8 IS, so up to 16 armor, between the frnt and back). Since I am pretty sure no Commandos are running around with all their armor on their rear torso, this seems odd.

Yet all said an done, by piloting smart (oh and I brawl, not snipe) I survive many one v ones, and have little issue with the current damage, now that across the map insta coring has been reduced.

[Accursed Richards]

Lostdragon, on 14 August 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Personally I would really like to see how the game felt if they cut all damage across the board in half. I would love to see that go to the test server.

Doesn't really do much good. It just makes sniper & alpha builds more dominant, because it's all about coring out that CT as fast as you possibly can, and any damage that isn't on the CT would be even more wasted than it is now.

But I do agree that mechs just don't feel tough enough. Lucky / quick kills were okay in TT, because you were controlling several mechs. When getting sniped means you have to stop playing the game, it's more annoying.

Edited by Accursed Richards, 17 August 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[costi]

Yeah, my main problem with the game (and one that keeps me away from playing) is that stuff just dies too fast. The game feels like some CoD or whatever, with everyone running full speed and dealing quick and painful death. I just don't feel like piloting a heavy armored warmachine.

[Threat Doc]

Dracol, on 09 August 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

Mechwarrior video games have had more players then the tt battletech game.

Umm, not no, but hell no! I posted numbers on this in another thread that's likely well-buried, by now, but I did the research on how many people have played the tabletop as compared to how many have played all of the MechWarrior, MechCommander, MechAssault, and MechWarrior: Living Legends games combined. The ratio comes out to something like 417:6250, to be relatively accurate, or about 2:31, with the larger numbers being the BattleTech tabletop players. At one time, across nearly two-dozen nations, there were 25,000,000 or so tabletop players.

Have a very good evening. Many of these numbers can be found on MekTek, and I think Solaris VII and Sarna.net have them, as well.

Edited by Kay Wolf, 19 August 2013 - 06:25 PM.

[RickySpanish]

I reckon they could add some randomness to the damage weapons deal factoring a few variables such as angle of attack (glancing blow vs a solid smack in the face, for example). Furthermore, the game could actually show the damage you deal in some way; this would help immeasurably with the old "did I hit that guy?!" syndrome and also quickly demonstrate the effects of weapon damage fall-off over distance. Plus it would be ******* ace to see those numbers fly up the screen

[DONTOR]

Possibly the most sensible post I've ever read, it makes perfect sense.

[Gralzeim]

While I agree that sometimes mechs die incredibly quickly (not counting when you're being focused by multiple enemies, I expect to go down fast if three Atlases and two Stalkers decide to all aim at my Cataphract), the devs already increased armor, and players just adapted to find the quickest way to kill enemy mechs, based on what was most efficient. This has fluctuated, but players have always found the quickest way to victory. It's the nature of a game like this.

Introducing some randomness is likely to be hated by many (imagine if you get bad luck for an entire match and can't hit a target's exposed torso sections even if they're point blank, that would be frustrated), unless it's along the lines of typical FPS "accuracy improves to pinpoint over a short duration if you keep the crosshairs on a single spot and you're not moving" thing, which could work, maybe.

There's not really an easy solution because players will bring whatever is most optimal for killing a mech as fast as possible, most of the time. Unless that's not possible, and that would kind of ruin the fun of tweaking a loadout. Why bother adjusting your loadout if it's going to be completely random anyway?

[Threat Doc]

RickySpanish, on 21 August 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

Plus it would be ******* ace to see those numbers fly up the screen

Bait taken! No, no it wouldn't.

Here's my two cents. If the developers would put in a random system to begin with, and institute piloting and gunnery skill, and tactics skill into the game, and then test players without the random system to establish a baseline for those skills, I think they would have a far better chance of having people be able to accept a random system. You place the reticule on your target, whether it's center mass or whatever, and then use a system similar to the Millennium's End RPG for random locations around where you're aiming, and the higher your gunnery skill value, the more apt you are to hit a target where you want.

Just throwing that out there.

[Skullbourne]

Maybe I am just pulling cannon flavor into this, but I could swear that its a targeting computer that is actually doing the aiming... Not the pilot. If I remember the books correctly, even the best pilots were not directing shots to the exact body part they wanted to hit. In those instances where they were able to hit a targeted body part, it was due to spending time messing with the computer and actually setting the shot up.

[Khobai]

Unfortunately this game does not have a randomized system for spreading damage. And implementing such a system would require tremendous effort at this stage in the game.

The most likely course of action for PGI to take to improve mech survivability is to increase internal structure.

Quote

PGI, take a cue from World of Tanks.... they too went through a period on their beta where most Tanks could get 3 shotted and be knocked out of action in seconds. The WoT dev's wisely decided, that people play a game to have FUN, and dieing in 6 seconds of combat is not fun. So they made the tanks more durable, to give players more PLAY time per match. Seriously consider making mechs more durable! This will gives player a chance to learn and adapt to the battle they are in. More time IN battle is MORE fun, this equals MORE players spending MORE money.

Tanks were made more durable in WoT so they could sell Gold Ammo. Whether or not the game is any fun is purely subjective; WoT is too luck based to be fun IMO. One of the things I like about MWO is that the lethality of my mech is proportional to my skill as a player. While I certainly agree that mechs die too fast, I am still adamantly opposed to any solution which largely removes skill as a factor. Which is why I believe increasing internal structure is the only practical solution. I would like to see +50% internal structure on all mechs.

And if thats not enough possibly add a passive damage reduction system that reduces damage to the center torso as long as the side torsos are intact and reduces damage to the side torsos as long as the conjoined arms and legs are attached. This would simulate the effect of damage spreading out without introducing randomness. Additionally it would make targeting other locations on a mech besides CT a bit more worthwhile.

Edited by Khobai, 22 August 2013 - 11:56 AM.

[AlexEss]

Storm Fox, on 09 August 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

I am one of the folks who have forked out a lot of cash hoping this game would be more then a sub-par team shooter in mechs. As it stands now, I am done giving PGI any more money.

Good, one should never spend money just for the sake of spending money.

The way the game plays now it is nearly I find it hard to believe that the Houses would ever bother spending millions of c-bills on a warmachine that lasts all of 6-10 seconds in 1 vs 1 combat, and should you survive that 1 on 1, you are highly unlikely to survive a second combat.

Well that is how it was in the lore... Are you not the hero of the story... Prepare to be blasted in to atoms. You are also not being very serious. Even my medium mech can take several minutes of combat as long as i play smart. Ofc that includes having someone else be the numbskull that peek around the corner first... =P

I played the original table top Battletech, and I feel 100% that the randomized hit locations were part of what made the game great. A mech could get lucky and survive through several skirmishes with luck. In MWO its totally become a game of quick coring and speed kills. This is NOT fun overall. It LOOKS like Battletech, which is awesome!!! Sadly, it has not even come close to FEELING like Battletech, and this is what we BT fans are looking for here.

Well the downside to random is that you can be at your best and then go down to RNG and that tend to **** people off even worse. Heck in the TT is was just a system to explain why there was a need for dices to begin with. Again i can make it through several small skirmishes by playing smart

PGI, take a cue from World of Tanks.... they too went through a period on their beta where most Tanks could get 3 shotted and be knocked out of action in seconds. The WoT dev's wisely decided, that people play a game to have FUN, and dieing in 6 seconds of combat is not fun. So they made the tanks more durable, to give players more PLAY time per match. Seriously consider making mechs more durable! This will gives player a chance to learn and adapt to the battle they are in. More time IN battle is MORE fun, this equals MORE players spending MORE money.

Otoh Warthunder (another very popular game in this genre) does not give a royal funk about your feelings. Have some bad hits and down you go face first. Problem with making mechs more durable is that the really durable mechs (that allready are overepresented) become so durable that they do not need to worry about damage and then you have a problem... The fact that a light mech actually can go toe to toe with a assault as long as they (again.... ) play smart.

Are you seeing a theme here.

As you can see i respect your opinions, i just wholeheartedly disagree. And i am a Medium pilot primarley with light on the side. It is bad enough as it is these days to take down a Stalker or a Atlas... I do not want them to be able to take more damage.

[DirePhoenix]

Khobai, on 22 August 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Unfortunately this game does not have a randomized system for spreading damage. And implementing such a system would require tremendous effort at this stage in the game.

Um, wrong. You could add a "randomized system for spreading damage" ala Cone of Fire. We already have a Cone of Fire system. It's called "Jump Jet shake". The only difference is that JJ shake shows the crosshair moving in random locations within a confined area instead of a circle that expands/contracts based on conditions that would vary the accuracy of your weapons.

[Khobai]

Quote

Um, wrong. You could add a "randomized system for spreading damage" ala Cone of Fire

Yes it could be done. But it wont happen. Because its much easier for PGI to increase internal structure than to completely redo their entire convergence system to include random cone of fire.

The path of least resistance for PGI is to increase internal structure. And that is what they will do. Its already what they said theyre looking at doing in the most recent ask the devs.

I would expect to see internal structure increased by as much as 50% (probably not more than that since youd have too many mechs running around without weapons if you increased internal structure too high).

Quote

We already have a Cone of Fire system. It's called "Jump Jet shake".

Jump Jet shake is not true random cone of fire. It is still possible to fire 100% accurately while jumpjetting anyway if you know how. That is why jump jet shake is worthless as a balancing mechanic.

Edited by Khobai, 22 August 2013 - 12:40 PM.

[Threat Doc]

Skullbourne, on 22 August 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Maybe I am just pulling cannon flavor into this, but I could swear that its a targeting computer that is actually doing the aiming... Not the pilot. If I remember the books correctly, even the best pilots were not directing shots to the exact body part they wanted to hit. In those instances where they were able to hit a targeted body part, it was due to spending time messing with the computer and actually setting the shot up.

You are partially correct about the targeting computer (DI/BC), except the MechWarrior still has to aim, in general, but the Damage Interpreter/Battle Computer is responsible for keeping the various gimbled weapon systems on target as much as possible. Your increasing movement, your enemies increasing movement, intervening terrain and environmental factors, elevation changes, etc., are supposed to make a 'Mechs actuators and individual weapon gimbles work harder to remain on-target, which is where you get your bonuses and penalties from the tabletop game.

As for the best pilots not directing shots, again this is not entirely true. The best pilots just know how their machine is going to act under various conditions and they've learned to compensate at-speed. However, the random body locations... you are right about that; even an ace pilot still has to fight the machinery.

PGI has made it -if they had anything to do with it- so your reticule acts in a particular way depending on all of the factors I mentioned, above. However, because they shot themselves in the foot with the way they built the maps, wanting everyone to fight close-in, as originally stated by the developers, any penalties are negated and pin-point accuracy remains, more or less, the universe we must live in.

[Karl Split]

Id like cone of fire personally, forcing you to stop dead to aim the perfect shot.

I do play cod, battlefield etc and the whole "do I run and spray or take my time and aim the shot risking return fire?" is a good mechanic. That being said I have no problem with mechs dying in a few shots, it teaches you to be more tactical and comitt sensibly. To be honest if your getting sick of just dying to an alpha off the bat i'd say your playing it wrong, learn to use the environment better

I'd hate the game if everyone was just running about soaking up damage endlessly it'd feel like no skill to me.