32 replies to this topic

[Urdnot Mau]

I was posting when i read someone saying something like "There's nothing wrong with "them", deal with it" and it got me wondering. These past days i've been getting pounded by those builds more than usual. Usually i try to use cover till i'm in range, but even when i'm in range i'm at their range and sometimes they get me moving between covers and i'm already red. After a few losses i get my own "cheese", but it's not for the fun.. just for a win (and to wreck someone's face).

So, when you're in one of those matches where you (and your team) are under heavy fire from mid-to-long-range (PPCs / Gauss) weapons, what do you do ?

Edited by Urdnot Mau, 10 August 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[Redshift2k5]

Use cover



Flank



Communicate



Getting into more detail, if you know there are snipers operating in a specific part of the battlefield, you need to intersperse cover between yourself and their location. On some maps this is difficult (Alpine Peaks has lots of distance between cover) and other maps this is easy.

But if you know the enemy is using sniper to cover an area, that area is now off-limits. Go around. move from cover to cover, or stay hidden long enough to force them to move up to engage. Both game modes have bases you can capture instead, and you ahve teammates with whom you can discuss a course of action.

Edited by Redshift2k5, 10 August 2013 - 10:01 AM.

[Sug]

Urdnot Mau, on 10 August 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

So, when you're in one of those matches where you (and your team) are under heavy fire from mid-to-long-range (PPCs / Gauss) weapons, what do you do ?

I let the people on my team with PPC/Gauss deal with them. They have their little sniper war for 5 min, then I flank the other team and give them a couple ac/20 shots to the gut.

I could almost just set a timer and walk away from the keyboard.

15:00 to 10:00 - Nothing
10: 00 to 5:00 - Sniperfest
5:00 to 0:00 - Start brawling

Really if you're solo pugging just wait until like 5 mechs on each side are dead before you make a move.


Edit: that is an insane amount of posts Red.

Edited by Sug, 10 August 2013 - 10:01 AM.

[Urdnot Mau]

I will give a few more tries to those options

Redshift2k5, on 10 August 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Use cover


Flank


Communicate


Getting into more detail, if you know there are snipers operating in a specific part of the battlefield, you need to intersperse cover between yourself and their location. On some maps this is difficult (Alpine Peaks has lots of distance between cover) and other maps this is easy.

But if you know the enemy is using sniper to cover an area, that area is now off-limits. Go around. move from cover to cover, or stay hidden long enough to force them to move up to engage. Both game modes have bases you can capture instead, and you ahve teammates with whom you can discuss a course of action.

So, you're sugesting me to use the chat to try and get the attention of team mates that never listen? ok. They don't follow idead to work as a group. I've tried that. Some don't even read the chat and other just pretend you never said anything.
- From cover to cover: (real) Example: Me and my team are at the "citadel" and the snipers on my team get slaughtered. The 4 guys that didn't stick with the team and charged on the oposite side got slaughtered. I was close range and the enemy was camping base. To move from cover to cover from the citadel to the enemy's base i had to cross the map back to my base, go to the right side of the map and... the enemy already had 1 capping my base and 3 other assaults coming to help. I couldn't, alone, decide to go back, since all my team mates were moving to cap. The enemy had 1 assault that killed 1 of us and we were under fire from a 4 ERPPC stalker using a good higher ground point to pick us off at a distance.

So, this option is almost never a good option in a 12 player team ( I cannot charge alone, since most of the enemy's mechs are not alone ). I should use the chat, but i cannot trust my team to read the message and follow me.

Sug, on 10 August 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

I let the people on my team with PPC/Gauss deal with them. They have their little sniper war for 5 min, then I flank the other team and give them a couple ac/20 shots to the gut.

Really if you're solo pugging just wait until like 5 mechs on each side are dead before you make a move.

Usually when that happens i'm not able to do anything, since the odds are i'll get outnumbered or they will get outnumbered.

Edited by Urdnot Mau, 10 August 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[Sug]

Urdnot Mau, on 10 August 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

Usually when that happens i'm not able to do anything, since the odds are i'll get outnumbered or they will get outnumbered.

Not sure what you mean.

[Lucity]

Join an established unit, even with just a lance of 2-4 can make a big difference.

[luigi256]

Depends on the mech i think. If you are a heavy or assault try to snipe back. If you are in a light or a fast medium try to get closer. In a light i try to distract and draw fire to let my teams snipers take a few shots or try to flank to distract them so any close range mechs can move in if a few are drawn to me. Also if in a light or fast medium make sure to not stay in one location if you strike and they are turning get out of there quick!

[Urdnot Mau]

Sug, on 10 August 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

Not sure what you mean.

If i wait then my score won't be that high cause i'll have done next to nothing, either by dying or by not doing much damage

Lucity, on 10 August 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Join an established unit, even with just a lance of 2-4 can make a big difference.

My sign, dude. Vanguard...

[Davoke]

I use a dual ERPPC mingled with a single Gauss Atlas, and you'll probably realize thats what i was doing after i've broken your line by shock attacking your center. So, um, i don't snipe <.<

[SovietArmada]

Once the HSR is fixed brawlers will rain king and the PPC+Gauss wont be all it is cut out to be.
Many brawler builds can alpha strike 80+ damage using less than 50% of their heat, the only problem is that with HSR less than 15% of that damage gets registered.

I noticed that the less weapons you fire the better chance at registering a hit. So weapons like lasers that do quick damage over time don't get all of its hits registered. But slow ballistic and laser weapons like AC-20, AC-10, PPC, etc get their damage registered assuming you don't fire it in conjunction with lasers or other fast hitting weapons where the chances of your high alpha weapon registering will diminish.

The point being, 35 damage is nothing, assuming it all registers at this state of HSR. Long range builds will definitely be crapping their pants when a brawler comes into range alpha striking them twice for the kill. It really all comes down to hit detection at this point, Brawlers will become the new problem along with LRM's.

[DegeneratePervert]

Depending on the mech, I do one of three things:

1.) I counter snipe if possible. I'm usually a better shot than the other guy, and I focus on tearing off his PPCs or detonating his gauss while he's trying to core me.

2.) Utilize cover and move with my group, and attempt a flank. PPC+Gauss builds die quickly to a brawler, and their rear torsos are juicy.

3.) I die a horrible death of lightning burns and gigantic holes in my sternum.

Another option is to not act... hide in cover, make them come to you.

[Sug]

Urdnot Mau, on 10 August 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

If i wait then my score won't be that high cause i'll have done next to nothing, either by dying or by not doing much damage

First blood: Not as important as last blood.

Usually my fresh mech at the end of the game is worth more towards a win than if I had rushed in early, gotten a kill and died.

I would say 80% of the games I've played since I started waiting it out have ended with me getting 3 or 4 kills and around 350+ damage. And a Win.

Edit: There's really too many mechs on the field to rush in if you're solo. If you have a 4man and a plan, sure take the initiative, but if you're on your own you're just gonna get ganged up on.

And it's not like you're going to get 12 kills or 12 assists. My damage/kills have stayed pretty much the same as in 8 mans because ....ta da... there are still even teams.

If it was 100 vs 100 my score still wouldn't change that much. Diminishing returns people. If you want to improve something help us complain to PGI about the unnessesary nerf to cbill rewards

Edited by Sug, 10 August 2013 - 01:47 PM.

[Urdnot Mau]

SovietArmada, on 10 August 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Once the HSR is fixed brawlers will rain king and the PPC+Gauss wont be all it is cut out to be.
Many brawler builds can alpha strike 80+ damage using less than 50% of their heat, the only problem is that with HSR less than 15% of that damage gets registered.

I noticed that the less weapons you fire the better chance at registering a hit. So weapons like lasers that do quick damage over time don't get all of its hits registered. But slow ballistic and laser weapons like AC-20, AC-10, PPC, etc get their damage registered assuming you don't fire it in conjunction with lasers or other fast hitting weapons where the chances of your high alpha weapon registering will diminish.

The point being, 35 damage is nothing, assuming it all registers at this state of HSR. Long range builds will definitely be crapping their pants when a brawler comes into range alpha striking them twice for the kill. It really all comes down to hit detection at this point, Brawlers will become the new problem along with LRM's.

Sounds awesome. Can't wait.

[Greyrook]

Agree with everyone who's been suggesting flank maneuvers, the trouble is doing it well from map to map. Some of them work really well, like Canyon Network where there's a lot of room for a speedier sniper (I use a 1PPC, 1ERPPC Blackjack) to poke around and get them looking away while your own teams heavier snipers do their thing. On maps where it's a little more tricky, I tend to still at least try to spread out from the rest of the firing line to get as much distance as possible that they have to cover. At the risk of smack-talking, most of the ERPPC+Gauss snipers are not very accurate, especially when they have to change their field of view a lot. Since the most common one is the Victor, you also have a speed advantage.

The real key, sadly, is getting rid of the rest of their team. Taking out their lights and other support mechs nullifies their shock value since they have a very low firing speed. Since they will usually be content to stay in the usual snipe spots, the rest of their team will naturally start to move around and that's where you can start to thin them out so that they can be dealt with at the end. The primary advantage of the build is that they're usually heavily armored assaults, so even if you're a "better" sniper, they need to hit you a lot less than the other way around. Add to that the dodgy hit detection and the way damage tends to spread all over a Victor rather than staying on one part of their torso and it's just not really viable to try to out luck-shot them. Even a Misery tends to outlast myself in my little blackjack in a pure snipe battle, so it's all about changing position, taking a couple shots, and then repositioning while they wait for you to pop back out.

All said, I wouldn't say the build is breaking the game, it's just shifting the metagame. This happens with every large-scale competitive game, and while I think they're a little "cheap" and "cheesy", I don't think there's a great way to nerf the build since it uses so few weapons. It's really going to come down to countering it with different tactics, not out-sniping directly.

[B0oN]

I mostly try it the Ork way and counter with tons of Dakka and screenshake through that, cause as everyone knows one can never have enough Dakka nor screenshake dealt .

[Royalewithcheese]

[Bront]

Hanging back a bit is an option. Flanking works fairly well. Honestly, countering with indirect fire and missiles can help your team as a whole.

Generally a brawler can clean up a sniper build pretty quickly if he can get close, so speed and flanking help. In smaller maps, hug cover till there's enough other targets out there that you can make your move. In larger maps, look for alternate ways to approach the team. Just avoid being out in the open alone unless you're a super fast light mech, and even then, don't tempt fate too often.

[NRP]

It seems like most people deal with PPC+Gauss builds by making threads whining about them.

The rest of us just shoot the Gauss until it explodes, then get close and wreck them. If they are decent snipers, call out to your teammates to focus fire/distract them. Then shoot the Gauss until it explodes, get close, and wreck them.

PPC builds are even easier. Just get close and wreck them. If you're really lucky, they'll have ERPPCs so they'll just overheat right in front of you so you can wreck them.

Edited by NRP, 11 August 2013 - 04:46 PM.

[Tskeet]

You realise PPCs have a minimum range, right? Trust me, it's infuriating to have lights and mediums run inside this range and light laser you to death.

lso as some have said, different maps make advancing behind cover and engaging in brawling either quite easy or almost impossible (say River Night vs Terra Therma).

[mailin]

I find that lrms work wonders on snipers. ECM lights like a Spider or Raven make great spotters for lrms. Lrm rain will do two things to snipers. 1) It'll damage them. (Always a good thing.) 2) It may get them to move out of their sniping spot, which then completely disrupts their sniping. If you run a light, these can be anywhere from really annoying to downright deadly to snipers. this depends on how good your light driver is and how experienced the sniper is. Also, remember that many ppc/gauss builds have to use XL engines and shave some armor (usually in the legs.) When I am in my Spider I will typically do an alpha on the legs of my enemy to see what color they turn. This is a pretty good indicator of how much armor they had to strip off their legs. Also, note that many drivers place ammo in the legs. Granted, gauss ammo doesn't explode, but those centurions that mount srms sometimes go up really well when you take out a leg.