293 replies to this topic

[Utilyan]

Hotthedd, on 13 August 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

This is simply not true, unfortunately. Maybe it is a mistake on the MG coding, but MGs are cutting through armor relatively easily now. The crit multiplier needs to go. There is no realistic reason a MG round would do more damage to internals than any other round.

Like all the stories about getting shot with a 22 in the arm and exiting your head........A MG round WOULD do more damage on account it can't penatrate the ARMOR......so the slugs would be bouncing around the meaty internals ripping everything apart.



Only the truth can set you free.......If you want MGs to suck at everything DAMNIT say so.

The folks who are bias against MGs. Made one fatal mistake. Insisted that MGs are not Good against ARMOR.........IMPLYING they are awsome against Unarmored. So now that they got what they want they hate it.

What they should have insisted was MG are not good AT ANYTHING.

[Caboose30]

Naduk, on 13 August 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

MGs are finally in a nice place (hasnt happened since Mechwarriror2) and you want to nerf them ? get real

you still need to boat MG's for them to be effective AND they are useless against armour
this forces build diversity

and quite frankly id rather see everyone boating MG's than the current ppc/gauss meta

MGs aren't useless against armor, I just had a Spider with nothing but MGs take me out in an undamaged Jenner. I think they either need to go, or need to be put to TT values. 2 damage every 10 seconds. THEN start tuning it. But right now? I watching an eight MG Jaeger take out an undamaged Awesome. They chewed right through his armor, and everyone keeps saying they don't work against armor. So, something is out of whack here. Are they supposed to damage armor or not? Because in the game right now, they do.

[Sephlock]

Corwin Vickers, on 11 August 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

So AC2s and small lasers aren't effective against battlemechs either?

The fact is machine guns get a bonus against infantry.

People who read into "Mgs get a bonus against infantry" that Mgs are bad at everything else are bad at logic.

AC/2s are anti air weapons only! (trollface)

[One Medic Army]

JuiceCaboose, on 13 August 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

MGs aren't useless against armor, I just had a Spider with nothing but MGs take me out in an undamaged Jenner. I think they either need to go, or need to be put to TT values. 2 damage every 10 seconds. THEN start tuning it. But right now? I watching an eight MG Jaeger take out an undamaged Awesome. They chewed right through his armor, and everyone keeps saying they don't work against armor. So, something is out of whack here. Are they supposed to damage armor or not? Because in the game right now, they do.

Guess where PGI started them at?
4dmg every 10seconds, with 80dmg/ton of ammo.
They were worthless because every other weapon both got a burst damage, they also all got massively buffed fire rates.
The AC/2 went from 0.2 DPS to 4 DPS before it was actually useful!

[Gallowglas]

JuiceCaboose, on 13 August 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

an eight MG Jaeger take out an undamaged Awesome

Pray tell, which variant has 8 ballistic mounts?

You'll pardon me if I am skeptical of anecdotes that are intended to bolster credibility of a certain viewpoint which contain inaccuracies like this. I don't doubt that you believe that it was solely the work of the MG's that did the deed. However, I sincerely doubt they completely eschewed the use of their other weapons. The 6 ballistic mount DD variant has two energy mounts that they almost certainly made use of. I would therefore contend that those other weapons were the can opener.

And, again, I'm in complete agreement that MG's wreck mechs that are opened. There are just better weapons to do the actual opening.

Edited by Gallowglas, 13 August 2013 - 04:25 PM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Well, OP or not to OP, I don't know, but I've definitely been mounting some now, where before I never used them. My new favorite build for my BJ-1 is a PPC and MG in each arm. Left, right, left right, then brrrrrrrrrrrrrtttttt when the armor is gone. For my 4G(F) Hunch, I still carry 3 med lasers but downgraded the AC to an AC10 from the 20 to mount 2 MG's. Yes I get half the damage per shot from the AC, but any mech with internals showing is getting the Rambo with an M-60 treatment. Honestly its probably not the best use, but it is fun as hell. Possibly MG's could do with a slight (if someone at PGI is reading SLIGHT) reduction in crit damage to internals, but they are not in a bad place. If anything, its about time for PGI to fix flamers, LBX, and NARC to make them useful. Or fix the constant CT seeking of LRM's. Or...... well you get the idea.

[Gallowglas]

If testing ground damage is to be believed in this particular regard, in optimal situations, I can hit internal armor with 2xPPC's about 2 seconds before the 6xMG will do so. 4 SPL will do it in almost precisely the same time as the 6xMG. Bear in mind though that PPC's are instant and pinpoint whereas MG's are a damage-over-time. As such, I suspect in actual battle conditions where targets aren't stationary, your time-to-internals will be more pronounced in favor of the PPC. I guess the MG isn't exactly terrible at stripping armor, but it's not doing so at some crazy fast rate.

Edited by Gallowglas, 13 August 2013 - 04:48 PM.

[stjobe]

JuiceCaboose, on 13 August 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

MGs aren't useless against armor, I just had a Spider with nothing but MGs take me out in an undamaged Jenner.

Right. Let's have a look at that claim, shall we:

An "undamaged Jenner" has 238 points of armour. At 4 DPS that takes 59.5 seconds to go through - but he's not going through it all, of course. So let's say he cored your XL out through the side torso; that's 22 armour, or 5.5 seconds to breach the armour. After that, it's 16 points of IS to go through at 11 DPS (4 x 2.76), or just about 1.5 seconds until you're dead. Total time: 7 seconds, providing the Spider could get all his damage onto your side torso alone. As he probably couldn't you're looking at roughly double that, say 12 seconds.

Is this overpowered and game-breaking? Let's compare it to what another light can do:

A Jenner with good aim could put 60-90 damage in one spot in those 12 seconds, coring you through the CT instead of the lesser-armoured ST. And he'd only need two seconds on target to do it, actually killing you on the second alpha after just 4 seconds, before that Spider has even breached the ST armour.

Why is it so upsetting that a Spider can actually kill things with a couple of MGs these days, when a Jenner has been capable of the same thing for over a year? As has the Raven and the Commando, not to forget any of the other light 'mechs - all whom have the capability of mounting far greater fire-power than the Spider.

JuiceCaboose, on 13 August 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

I think they either need to go, or need to be put to TT values. 2 damage every 10 seconds. THEN start tuning it.

So you want to put the MG back to half the damage it originally did? 0.02 damage per projectile? A nerf of 80% of its current per-projectile damage? 0.2 DPS? Are you seriously even writing this? Mind-boggling.

That's really the stupidest, most counter-productive, and flat out inane suggestion I've read in a long, long time. Congratulations, it takes a lot to achieve that on these forums.

JuiceCaboose, on 13 August 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

I watching an eight MG Jaeger

Is that from the same factory as the 6 MG Spider?

Who's going to take you seriously when you say crap like that? It didn't work for the devs, it certainly isn't working for you.

[Bhael Fire]

If anyone even thinks about nerfing the MGs after they finally got them working, I will eat their liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

[Carrioncrows]

Put 6 MG's on a Jager

Nothing else.

Go play it come back.

Then put 6 medium lasers on a Jager (Works if you have Firebrand) nothing else.

Then come back and tell me which one was more effective for your tonnage.

MG's are about 1/2 of where they need to be.

[Gallowglas]

Carrioncrows, on 13 August 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

Put 6 MG's on a Jager

Nothing else.

Go play it come back.

Then put 6 medium lasers on a Jager (Works if you have Firebrand) nothing else.

Then come back and tell me which one was more effective for your tonnage.

MG's are about 1/2 of where they need to be.

But that's not accurate either. The entire point of MG's is what they do once external armor is breached and the synergy they have with your energy weapons. Once you hit internals, there's nothing in the game that will strip or kill something anywhere near as fast. They're definitely worth it. They're not a go-to for standard damage in and of themselves, but you can do some sick things with them. You'll typically get high kills, high component destruction, and moderate-to-high damage.

Edited by Gallowglas, 13 August 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[Carrioncrows]

Gallowglas, on 13 August 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

But that's not accurate either. The entire point of MG's is what they do once external armor is breached and the synergy they have with your energy weapons. Once you hit internals, there's nothing in the game that will strip or kill something anywhere near as fast. They're definitely worth it. They're not a go-to for standard damage in and of themselves, but you can do some sick things with them. You'll typically get high kills, high component destruction, and moderate-to-high damage.

The amount of effort required trying to explain to people exactly how bad MGs are and to convey where they should be in a way that people can understand is beyond my ability to sustain.

Talking to a wall.

I don't care for crit ********, crit mutipliers, crit seekers, I don't care for PGI's implementation of it being a secondary weapon, or only working to kill components or magical bullets that somehow do extra damage against internal structure.

It's Bad.

It needs a buff.

Stop wasting time with extraneous stuff and just buff the damage.

That is all.

[One Medic Army]

...MGs now deal about 2.75 DPS to internal structure, per MG.
That sounds like a damage buff to me, just a very specific one.

[Bhael Fire]

I don't care what they do, but if they make it as useless as it was before...livers are going to be eaten with fava beans and chianti.

[Gallowglas]

Carrioncrows, on 13 August 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

The amount of effort required trying to explain to people exactly how bad MGs are and to convey where they should be in a way that people can understand is beyond my ability to sustain.

Talking to a wall.

I don't care for crit ********, crit mutipliers, crit seekers, I don't care for PGI's implementation of it being a secondary weapon, or only working to kill components or magical bullets that somehow do extra damage against internal structure.

It's Bad.

It needs a buff.

Stop wasting time with extraneous stuff and just buff the damage.

That is all.

I guess my experience (and that of many others) is just a fluke

One Medic Army, on 13 August 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

...MGs now deal about 2.75 DPS to internal structure, per MG.
That sounds like a damage buff to me, just a very specific one.

Precisely so.

[Carrioncrows]

One Medic Army, on 13 August 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

...MGs now deal about 2.75 DPS to internal structure, per MG.
That sounds like a damage buff to me, just a very specific one.

No they don't.

They deal 2.75 DPS as long as that location has a component in it. If it doesn't you are still back to 1 dps and if it does the moment that component is destroyed you go back to 1 DPS.

Engines are not a component, Gyro's are not a component.

This is the definition of extraneous ******** and should not be used to hold machine guns hostage as a reason not to increase their functionality outside of this blue moon situations that makes the MG's not just situational but unreliable as a damage dealing weapon.

If it's not a damage dealing weapon then it has no place in Battletech, MWO or any game worth a damn.

[One Medic Army]

Carrioncrows, on 13 August 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

No they don't.

They deal 2.75 DPS as long as that location has a component in it. If it doesn't you are still back to 1 dps and if it does the moment that component is destroyed you go back to 1 DPS.

Engines are not a component, Gyro's are not a component.

This is the definition of extraneous ******** and should not be used to hold machine guns hostage as a reason not to increase their functionality outside of this blue moon situations that makes the MG's not just situational but unreliable as a damage dealing weapon.

If it's not a damage dealing weapon then it has no place in Battletech, MWO or any game worth a damn.

Congratulations!
You've mis-understood the buff!

They do that damage when they "roll" a crit, regardless of if there's anything in the section to be crit.

[Corwin Vickers]

JuiceCaboose, on 13 August 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

MGs aren't useless against armor, I just had a Spider with nothing but MGs take me out in an undamaged Jenner.

How in the living hell did you lose that fight??????????????

You deserved it

[Gallowglas]

And as another piece of anecdotal evidence in a match not more than 5 minutes ago...



However, anecdotes aside, the MG is powerful, but situationally so. Matches like this seem extreme, but similar things can happen in any number of other non-cheese loadouts. You just have to know how to use your weapons and your chassis to the best effect. I've had horrible rounds with this DD as well where I either got bogged down in a snipe-fest, someone just flat out-piloted me, I got focused, I couldn't get away from LRM spotters, etc. My main point with posting these isn't to brag or to suggest that the loadout is OP. I don't think it is. My point was just to show that MG's are effective in their niche.

Edited by Gallowglas, 13 August 2013 - 09:30 PM.

[Carrioncrows]

One Medic Army, on 13 August 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

Congratulations!
You've mis-understood the buff!

They do that damage when they "roll" a crit, regardless of if there's anything in the section to be crit.

- 15% of critical damage dealt to an exposed 'Mech component will now be directly applied to the internal structure of that component.
- This is only applied to the critical damage done. Base weapon damage is not taken into account.
- Critical damage is not applied through armor.
- Armor must be reduced to 0% before any crit damage is applied to internals.

http://mwomercs.com/game/patch-notes

No mech component. No critical damage.

You can't critical something that is not there.

Something that isn't there can't be Dealt damage.

No Critical Damage - 1 DPS weapon.

Hey I may be wrong. I may be wrong as hell.

Lord knows I couldn't go another year trying to get PGI to stop nickle and dime'n every singe upgrade for MG's Flamers and LB10-X with weird *** algorithms that make little sense other than try to justify low damage weapon.

My idea could be stupid, Bad, and poorly implemented.

But until they try it we will never know.

I would rather they knock themselves out with enthusiasm and have to back down from there than another year of grudgingly give out little chinsey tweaks every few months that equal the same result = useless.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 13 August 2013 - 10:37 PM.