293 replies to this topic

[Drunk Canuck]

There is nothing wrong with Machine Guns right now, there is something wrong with LRM's, but I will bring that up in another topic.

[stjobe]

Hotthedd, on 18 August 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

* ALL ballistic and missile builds need ammo. The fact that MGs need ammo is a Red Herring. But, while we are on the subject, MGs get 1000 rounds per ton. One ton of ammo can easily satisfy 2 MGs for an entire match.

First off, MGs get 2,000 rounds per ton, and 2 MGs run through that in 100 seconds of firing, or 1 minute 40 seconds. Quads run through it in 50 seconds, and six MGs go through a ton of ammo in 33 seconds.

I often run out of ammo with two tons in a quad-MG Spider.

Hotthedd, on 18 August 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

* 240 meter max range (120m ideal). This makes MGs the same as EVERY OTHER light short range weapon in the game. Put this on a fast mech, and it does not even matter.

120m is where MGs stop doing 0.1 damage per projectile. They then fall off to zero at 240m. Incidentally, all other ballistics have triple effective range as their max, MGs only have double.

Except for the Flamer and the Small Lasers, most short-ranged weapons do their full damage out to 270m. The MG stops doing any damage at all 30m before that, and only do their normal damage at half that. So yes, they're short-ranged.

Hotthedd, on 18 August 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

* Spread. LOL. At optimal range, the spread is minimal. (BTW, crit-seekers are SUPPOSED to have spread to increase the odds of a crit) Again, no disadvantage.

Optimal range is 120m, and at that range the spread is enough to cover every hit location of a Commando, from top to toe. Please test that in the Training Grounds before commenting further on MG spread.

Hotthedd, on 18 August 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

* 100% time on target. Let's see, ALL lasers NEED 100% time on target for full efficiency, however MGs can RELEASE THE TRIGGER when not on target. You only have to be on target while pulling the trigger. Need to twist/evade? No big deal, take your finger off the trigger, and no ammo will be wasted. No cooldown means you can resume firing only when the target is in the crosshairs. Nope, no disadvantage here, as a matter of fact I would call this a major advantage.

You seem to not understand what 100% time-on-target means, it's not about wasting ammo. It's about your DPS dropping for every tenth of a second you're not holding them on-target. A Small Laser needs to be on target 0.75 seconds, then it can do whatever it wants for 2.25 seconds without losing a single fraction of its DPS. But the MG cannot, it needs to stay on-target 100% of the time or its DPS will drop like a stone. This means no twisting to alleviate incoming damage, no maneuvering for a better shot, no running in and out of cover. You just have to face the enemy, smile and take it.

Hotthedd, on 18 August 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

* MGs are incredibly effective at removing armor, especially in groups. 2 DPS per MG -- but wait, there is more! Since they can be continuously fired, they can do 20 DPS per MG per 10 seconds. And THAT is vs. ARMOR! Against internals it is staggeringly better.

You seem really confused as to what DPS is. It stands for Damage Per Second and it's a simple measure of how much damage a weapon puts out per second. Now the MG has a per-projectile damage of 0.1, and it fires 10 projectiles per second. This means its Damage Per Second is 0.1 * 10, or 1. It can never be 2, and certainly not 20, just because the weapon is capable of continuous fire; that's already calculated into the DPS number of 1. So two MGs do 2 * 1 DPS, or 2 DPS. They will never do "20 DPS per 10 seconds" since DPS is a measure of damage per second. That they put out 20 damage per 10 seconds is something else; and if you ask me, not very impressive.

Hotthedd, on 18 August 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Battletech already has several balancing factors for weapons. Tonnage, Heat, Critical slots, and Range. The MG does this damage with 0.5 tons per MG, ZERO Heat, ONE Critical space, and the Range has been buffed by a factor of 2.5!

The MG does ****-poor damage against armour, it's equivalent to a Small Laser. Why aren't you going on a rampage against the terribly overpowered 6 SL Jenner? Could it be because it's not OP? Well, neither is the MG. It's finally useful and no longer a waste of tonnage. Please don't try to nerf it back into uselessness again.

Hotthedd, on 18 August 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

When you see regularly MG Jagers with 5 kills and 700+ damage in a match, one can argue that MGs are "a little over the top" right now.

If those Jagers ran only MGs I would agree, but I've heard that they pack dual PPCs or LLs as well, making much of your point about MGs irrelevant. They're only good against inexperienced pilots, and in no small part its because the PPCs or LLs are very quick to strip the armour and let the MGs do their thing.

Edited by stjobe, 18 August 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Ahhhh, you run a MG spider.

I see so clearly now.

YOU may run low on ammo due to the fact that you can spend so much time inside 120 meters. Most cannot, therefor the ammo lasts longer.

I tell you what, since you say that MGs are ineffective against armor, you wouldn't be opposed to having MGs do zero damage to armor, while keeping the insane crit damage, right?

I bet not. And btw, MGs have been buffed to 2 DPS vs armor and 2.48 DPS vs. internal structure.

The thing is: You are having lots of fun exploiting not one, but TWO broken things in MW:O. I see why you do not want these things fixed. Enjoy it while you can.

[stjobe]

Hotthedd, on 18 August 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Ahhhh, you run a MG spider.

After every patch that tweaks the MG I do a handful of drops to test the viability of the MG. Not until the IS damage was introduced were they anything but a waste of tonnage. Now they're finally useful.

Hotthedd, on 18 August 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

I tell you what, since you say that MGs are ineffective against armor, you wouldn't be opposed to having MGs do zero damage to armor, while keeping the insane crit damage, right?

If it was up to me, I'd remove the crit bonuses altogether and up the damage a bit instead. I never wanted MGs to be a crit weapon, in fact I fought PGI on it in several threads. I want a regular-damage weapon that's capable of doing about as much damage to 'mechs as a Small Laser. That's it. But since PGI got it stuck in their heads that the MG should be a "crit weapon" that should be low-damage vs armour, I'll take what I can get. And right now, that is a low-damage-vs-armour weapon that can kill 'mechs.

Remember, two weeks back a MG kill was a fluke. Now the MG is capable of killing, just like any other weapon.

Hotthedd, on 18 August 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

I bet not. And btw, MGs have been buffed to 2 DPS vs armor and 2.48 DPS vs. internal structure.

It's 1 DPS vs armour, 2.76 DPS vs Internal Structure, and a bit over 11 DPS vs Internal Components. If you have data showing otherwise, please present it.

Hotthedd, on 18 August 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

The thing is: You are having lots of fun exploiting not one, but TWO broken things in MW:O. I see why you do not want these things fixed. Enjoy it while you can.

I have 49 matches in my SDR-5K, it's not even elited. If you want to call that exploiting, I don't think you'll get many people to agree with you.

If you see me on the battlefield, it's about 20 times likelier you'll see me in one of my Commandos than in a MG Spider.

Edited by stjobe, 18 August 2013 - 12:14 PM.

[Ensaine]

I have one of those 6 MG/2ERLL Jaeger DD's.....

I average 3 kills, and 500+ damage, but NOT in every match.

These mechs are a major pain to do well in, due to the short range of the MG's .. I don't care what anyone says. It takes a lot of movement to be able to ambush someone, and fire off a great deal of bullets, then evade as he turns around. Jaeger's do NOT go head to head with most mechs well.

Only on newer players can I do pretty much what I want to.. most experienced players know how to deal with a MG mech.

Trust me, we don't do that well every match. I'm playing this build now for the challenge. And it IS a challenge.

[Hotthedd]

You AVERAGE 3 kills, and 500+ damage.

Not too shabby for 13 tons (+ ammo) in weapons, and a total of 17 heat.

This is one of the reasons MGs are imbalanced.

[Rippthrough]

Hotthedd, on 19 August 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

You AVERAGE 3 kills, and 500+ damage.

Not too shabby for 13 tons (+ ammo) in weapons, and a total of 17 heat.

This is one of the reasons MGs are imbalanced.

Yeah, and when I take my 3xlaser 5D out, 7-900 ain't out of the question, 400+ is the minimum I'm happy with...

[Hotthedd]

Rippthrough, on 19 August 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Yeah, and when I take my 3xlaser 5D out, 7-900 ain't out of the question, 400+ is the minimum I'm happy with...

So what your saying is that for less tonnage, and less heat, the MG Jager AVERAGES more than the minimum you are happy with.

Thanks for reinforcing my point.

[Rippthrough]

Err, yes, who would think a 65ton mech does slightly more than I'm happy doing in a Spider with 3 lasers....16 tonnes of weapons and ammo vs 3/5 tons...

...point successfully reinforced there, well done....

Edited by Rippthrough, 19 August 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Rippthrough, on 19 August 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Err, yes, who would think a 65ton mech does slightly more than I'm happy doing in a Spider with 3 lasers....16 tonnes of weapons and ammo vs 3/5 tons...

...point successfully reinforced there, well done....

Are you saying three MEDIUM lasers?

Why would the tonnage of the chassis have anything to do with damage output. If you were in anything other than a Spider, I could buy the "survivability" angle.

[Rippthrough]

I can outdo that in a 3 laser raven, 6 laser jenner, cicada, hunchback, centurion, catapult, jager, cataphract....your point?

[Hotthedd]

Rippthrough, on 19 August 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

I can outdo that in a 3 laser raven, 6 laser jenner, cicada, hunchback, centurion, catapult, jager, cataphract....your point?

You can AVERAGE 3 kills and 500+ damage in each of those chassis?

Congratulations on your enormous e-peen. However it is a bit off-topic.

[Rippthrough]

Yes?

And the MG spider does similar, you were the one using someones quote to show how OP the MG spider is.
Reality, however, is that the Spider with 3 mediums is actually as good if not arguably better.

[Capt Jester]

PGI has plans to increase IS HP, so no worries my friend.

[Hotthedd]

Rippthrough, on 19 August 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Yes?

And the MG spider does similar, you were the one using someones quote to show how OP the MG spider is.
Reality, however, is that the Spider with 3 mediums is actually as good if not arguably better.

No, I was using his quote to show that for the tonnage and heat, MGs are imbalanced. Nothing to do with the Spider, that part is a known issue. He was piloting a Jagermech, as a matter of fact.

Apples to apples, do you think you could average 3 kills and 500+ damage in a 3 medium laser (+2 LLaser) Jagermech?

Don't answer, I know what you are going to say.

Too bad there is nobody else in existence in your Elo bracket, then the kills and damage would probably even out.

Capt Jester, on 19 August 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

PGI has plans to increase IS HP, so no worries my friend.

I see what you did there....

[Rippthrough]

Hotthedd, on 19 August 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

Apples to apples, do you think you could average 3 kills and 500+ damage in a 3 medium laser (+2 LLaser) Jagermech?

Don't answer, I know what you are going to say.

Yes?

I'm sorry, am I supposed to not answer the truth?

[Hotthedd]

Rippthrough, on 19 August 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Yes?

I'm sorry, am I supposed to not answer the truth?

I was saying an answer was unnecessary. The tonnage would be similar, but the heat would be much different. I am surprised at your white knighty-ness for PGI, given your sig.

[Rippthrough]

Because it's the first time machine guns have actually felt like viable weapons?

Given my sig, you should probably realise that if they weren't, or were massively OP, I'd be up in arms about it. I'm not, they're fine.

[Koniving]

How come no one thinks that flamers should become viable weapons?

PGI claims you can heat up a standard heatsink mech up to 90%.

Okay. Standard heatsink mech.


Can you raise my heat? This poor guy couldn't even slow down my cooldown.

[Mazzyplz]

just had a few brawls (3 in a row) with the same guy piloting a jagermech with 6 machinegun and 1 ppc.

not even in the coldest map my awesome could keep up with it's DPS and heat neutrality. even though i had a lot more armor,
my large pulses put me in overheat mode in no time while he was just strolling around having to manage 0

MANAGING 0 HEAT.

how do you expect this weapon to be balanced with the rest when its boating is not penalized and when it takes away one of the major skillsets of the game, which is managing heat?

he destroyed my assault mech in frozen city in a 1v1 popping out of a corner, then he destroyed my mech in caustic valley, where he could use the terrain to blindside me and put the hurt on my mech (after armor is gone you have about 1 second to live, seriously, maybe 2.)

it was only the third time around in tourmaline where i could get a clear vision of him from a distance that i had a decent firefight with him, his single er ppc vs my er large laser. it was only then that i managed to get him to 80% before he even shot me 5 times that i could stand a chance against it and won.

so yeah, at close range this is the meanest jager build at the moment, perfect for a noob too because managing heat is for suckers i guess?