96 replies to this topic

[Shadey99]

XSerjo, on 11 August 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Ok, we can't get Flea because it's too fast for current HSR implementation. But what about Urbanmech? It's slow, it's iconic, it's awesome!

Stock Fleas are 97 kph, 126 kph with MASC. Stock it doesn't break anything and is known to be slow. If they make MASC just like ECM than very few designs can even use it and they can artificially manipulate how fast it can get you up to. However in the current system the stock Flea is rather horrible with fast Victor's catching it, let alone Dragons, Quickdraws, Cicadas, and all other lights once MASC boost is over. It would have the same issue as the Urbanmech, to slow to function in the current meta.

[FupDup]

Shadey99, on 11 August 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

Stock Fleas are 97 kph, 126 kph with MASC. Stock it doesn't break anything and is known to be slow. If they make MASC just like ECM than very few designs can even use it and they can artificially manipulate how fast it can get you up to. However in the current system the stock Flea is rather horrible with fast Victor's catching it, let alone Dragons, Quickdraws, Cicadas, and all other lights once MASC boost is over. It would have the same issue as the Urbanmech, to slow to function in the current meta.

Implying that people wouldn't customize their Fleas with larger than stock engines.

[Shadey99]

FupDup, on 11 August 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

Implying that people wouldn't customize their Fleas with larger than stock engines.

No implying PGI cuts off the engines that can be put in a Flea before it hits that limit. After all they already tweak this on a mech per mech and even chasis per chasis basis. They could add it now and cap the engine really low (for our current standards) without running into any problems that don't relate specifically to implementing MASC (programming temporary accelerated speed, which button it uses, UI information related to it, etc). Heck they could even release the Flea sans MASC and add MASC when it's ready (they did this with the Raven and ECM).

Edited by Shadey99, 11 August 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[FupDup]

Shadey99, on 11 August 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

No implying PGI cuts off the engines that can be put in a Flea before it hits that limit. After all they already tweak this on a mech per mech and even chasis per chasis basis. They could add it now and cap the engine really low (for our current standards) without running into any problems that don't relate specifically to implementing MASC (programming temporary accelerated speed, which button it uses, UI information related to it, etc). Heck they could even release the Flea sans MASC and add MASC when it's ready (they did this with the Raven and ECM).

Capping the engine really low is a good way to make the Flea dead-on-arrival, especially because it already has to waste critical slots on a crapload of external heat sinks (which means it can't use as many tech upgrades as other lights, which makes it even harder to utilize the mech's already pathetically low tonnage). The Flea shouldn't be forced to use MASC just to keep pace with other lights.


As for MASC, they might end up just giving it Command Console treatment and making it do nothing other than occupying pixels in the mechlab.

[Angel of Annihilation]

MonkeyCheese, on 11 August 2013 - 01:57 AM, said:

Everyone here seems to be missing the point that Light Mechs are getting screwed over again this mech cycle, and that their specific roles are always getting ignored. My main question is WHY?

And no this is not about lagshield, lagravens, lagspiders, hitboxes and so on, those are all problems and bugs that have or will be solved eventually.

For starters we are missing light mechs that should have been released.

Founders Round 1
Jenner, Hunchback, Catapult, Atlas

Round 2
Commando, Centurion, Dragon, Awesome

Round 3
Raven, Cicada, Cataphract, Stalker,

Round 4
Spider (last released light mech), Trebuchet, Jagermech, Highlander,

Round 5
Flea (MIA?? because of MASC), Blackjack, Quickdraw, Victor

Round 6 (Current)
Missing Light mech and no the flea dosnt go here, Kintaro, Most likely the Orion, to be announced Assault mech (King Crab yes?)

Round 7 Pheonix mechs
Locust, Shadow Hawk, Thunderbolt, Battlemaster


As for Hero mechs Lights are getting screwed over here too

Light
Deaths Knell

Medium
X-5, Yen lo wang, Golden boy

Heavy
Fang, Flame, Ilya Muromets, Firebrand

Assault
Pretty Baby, Misery, Heavy Metal, Dragon Slayer


Furthermore @ PGI can we please have some information about the following

Increased rewards for light mechs in relation to scouting, especially now that 12v12 is out light mechs can support the team by scouting but the rewards are small and the 20 ton mechs could really benefit from this.

Increased rewards for light mechs who spend entire rounds capping basses to try to win a match, seriously for a good light mech pilot its better to just go fight and die instead of doing nothing and capping to ensure a win. Light Mechs cap bases faster when compared to the other weight classes?

Current status of the Speedcap, netcode and MASC as the 20 ton mechs wont have much of a chance if they are speed caped to 150kph like most of the other lights and the cicada.

Legit Knockdowns when? As a light pilot I miss knockdowns, back in closed beta I use to be so much more aware of my surroundings and the positions of other mechs and this made me a better pilot who always tried to survive as it wasn't only weapons that could kill you because other mechs bodies were just as dangerous. Now days everyone has become sloppy including myself. Also dont get me started on the glitchynes of the current collisions.


So why are lights being ignored?


Thoughts and further discussion anyone?

I think there are a couple factors.

One is the fact that the most popular mechs in the game are the heavier designs. This is what most people play and most people want to see so PGI is catering to their playerbased.

Two is hero mechs. The bigger the hero mech, the more PGI makes off their sales.

The first point is very valid. More people are excited about seeing the Orion, Wolverrine, Griffin, Battlemaster, Shadow Hawk, etc than any light mech you could mention. These mechs not some obscure light mech are what is going to get new players to join the game after release.

The second part I think is bad marketing. The reason I say this is more people would invest 1500 MC into a good light mech than 6500 into an Assault just because it is a cheaper entry point for a hero mech. I know I would without a doubt buy a good Firestarter Hero but doubt I will ever buy another hero over 3000 MC. Also the only reason I have the heroes I currently own is becuase I got 20,000 MC with my founder pack making them all cost less than $12 each realitive to what I spent on the package.

In any case I do expect them to start releasing a few more lights but only after release.

[Deathlike]

Viktor Drake, on 11 August 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Two is hero mechs. The bigger the hero mech, the more PGI makes off their sales.

QFT

Now sell the 6MG Hero Spider, and bam, instant win!

Edited by Deathlike, 11 August 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[Bront]

I see people calling for the Panther, but really, isn't that mostly a commando with 10 more tons? I don't see it bringing much. The Urbanmech is too slow at the moment to be survivable as a light unless every model had ECM (which would help compensate for being slow). A 35 ton mech with a balistic hardpoint on the arm (Maybe a panther variant I haven't seen) would allow for some interesting options (A light mech with a UAC5 could be fun), but they need something different from what they have, and sadly, many lights were basically different skins on the same basic mech: Some combination of MGs/SLs/MLs/SRMs, with the occasioinal PPC/LRM variants, which we can already do in the current system.

I love lights. I love my Jenners, and my Commando 2D is nice (the 3A wasn't bad, but sans-ECM, they're way too squishy, the 1B was a slow underpowered Jenner D/K, though could be an anti-light with the right build). Not a huge fan of the raven, but I can see the upside (Again, mostly the ECM). Heck, there's nothing between the 25 and 45 ton weights that's not a bird-like mech of some kind (no real arms), which is a big shame, and the 45 tonner, the BJ, is still missing horizontal arm movement.

At least the Kintaro was bringing something a little new to the table (55 tonner, and SRM focused missile points), and the Orion will hopefully bring a useful 75 tonner, since we're missing that weight class.

[MonkeyCheese]

Shadey99, on 11 August 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

No implying PGI cuts off the engines that can be put in a Flea before it hits that limit. After all they already tweak this on a mech per mech and even chasis per chasis basis. They could add it now and cap the engine really low (for our current standards) without running into any problems that don't relate specifically to implementing MASC (programming temporary accelerated speed, which button it uses, UI information related to it, etc). Heck they could even release the Flea sans MASC and add MASC when it's ready (they did this with the Raven and ECM).

Yeah still don't understand why the flea can't just come out and be capped at 150kph like the rest of them and adding masc in the future anyway, because the 20ton locust will be exactly the same thing when it comes out and we have an actual release date for the locust.

To carry on my original debate
If they really can't or don't want to put out the flea now, then why haven't they done the same as the orion/quickdraw switch?

Since the flea was expected in my original post in round 5 of Mech releases PGI have released the blackjack, quickdraw victor and kintaro, so they have had the time to work on and release four larger mechs so why are we now 2 light mechs behind? And not even a hero light to shut us light Mech lovers up.

To add although the Sarah Mech is one of the best things I have seen a gaming community do is not a hero Mech it is a simple Jenner D with a different skin just like how we apply premium skins in the Mech lab.

So yes us Light Mech lovers are getting ignored while everyone else gets their shiny new toys and further enjoyment in mwo, and to the trolls bad netcode/whatever is not a sound reason for the absence of anything Mech or reward related in the Light Mech category

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 11 August 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[Shadey99]

FupDup, on 11 August 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Capping the engine really low is a good way to make the Flea dead-on-arrival, especially because it already has to waste critical slots on a crapload of external heat sinks (which means it can't use as many tech upgrades as other lights, which makes it even harder to utilize the mech's already pathetically low tonnage). The Flea shouldn't be forced to use MASC just to keep pace with other lights.

To a large part of this forum the Flea is dead on arrival regardless. So why not just release it as terrible as it would be? And really paired down to that level it has a bit of tonnage it can play with for it's 5 Energy hard points or 5 + 2 Ballistics. So it's either going to run 5 ML/SPL or 2 MG+5 SL to fit it's tonnage. Ironically it will still outgun a Locust, but the Locust would be faster stock. Both mechs sans MASC have ~5 tons to use for weapons and have problems running 10 DHS+EE and won't have the space for FF with a full loadout because of needing to mount external HS to reach 10.

[MonkeyCheese]

Shadey99, on 11 August 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

needing to mount external HS to reach 10.

Yes I have played with the first locust on smurfy and it would be so much better if the weight and crits were not wasted on the extra heatsinks.

[FupDup]

Shadey99, on 11 August 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

To a large part of this forum the Flea is dead on arrival regardless. So why not just release it as terrible as it would be? And really paired down to that level it has a bit of tonnage it can play with for it's 5 Energy hard points or 5 + 2 Ballistics. So it's either going to run 5 ML/SPL or 2 MG+5 SL to fit it's tonnage. Ironically it will still outgun a Locust, but the Locust would be faster stock. Both mechs sans MASC have ~5 tons to use for weapons and have problems running 10 DHS+EE and won't have the space for FF with a full loadout because of needing to mount external HS to reach 10.

The Locust actually can fit DHS + ES + FF if you equip it with 1 ERLL + 2 MGs.

MonkeyCheese, on 11 August 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Yes I have played with the first locust on smurfy and it would be so much better if the weight and crits were not wasted on the extra heatsinks.

Yup, I hate the TT engine rules as well. I can live with the 10 heat sink minimum requirement, but FFS the first 10 should be built into the engine so you aren't sapped of an @$$load of critical slots.

Edited by FupDup, 11 August 2013 - 03:46 PM.

[Shadey99]

FupDup, on 11 August 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

The Locust actually can fit DHS + ES + FF if you equip it with 1 ERLL + 2 MGs.

I said 'full loadout', ie using all available hardpoints for weapons. I'd rather have 5 energy hardpoints and get a LL/ER LL + 4 SL, or even 5 MPL... But we'll see how the few possible builds go.

[stjobe]

Shadey99, on 11 August 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:

Um in TT/P&P the Commando maxed at 97 kph and was a striker, much like the later Panther. The problem for MWO is that lights here lack the features that made them so useful and common in those versions of the game.

That, and of course that weapons effectively do half the damage compared to what they did in TT, due to MWO's doubling of armour and internal structure. A Panther isn't the terrifying thing it was in TT - a 35-ton light with a PPC?!? That was some major direct-fire support in TT; in MWO it's just another single-PPC light. Plenty of those around.

Hell, I've modded one of my Commandos to a ghetto-Panther 10K, with an ERPPC and an Artemis SRM-4. It's not that great, but it's sort of fun to play from time to time.

As for the Locust and the Flea, the newly improved MG gives hope to these two 'mechs and I'm still looking forward to mastering them both.

[Joseph Mallan]

Works better on a Jenner St.

[Shadey99]

stjobe, on 12 August 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

That, and of course that weapons effectively do half the damage compared to what they did in TT, due to MWO's doubling of armour and internal structure.

Weapons also fire at least twice as quickly (or in the case of the AC2 20 times faster), so really the threat hasn't changed that much. PPC lights or even LRM lights acting in concert with fast strikers make a world of hurt. Especially if they got in behind the enemy, my Cicada 3M ninja Sniper has pulled off some terrifying 5 kill matches, with 3 assists before (& yes I know it's not a light, but it uses alot of the same tactics as one).

stjobe, on 12 August 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

A Panther isn't the terrifying thing it was in TT - a 35-ton light with a PPC?!? That was some major direct-fire support in TT; in MWO it's just another single-PPC light. Plenty of those around.

Hell, I've modded one of my Commandos to a ghetto-Panther 10K, with an ERPPC and an Artemis SRM-4. It's not that great, but it's sort of fun to play from time to time.

But our Panther could look more like a Incubus (Vixen) clan mech than it's typical designs. At the very least I'd expect 2 energy hard points and 2 missile hardpoints. I can see some interesting possibilities and the energy weapons will primarily be in the arm much like a PPC Spider, unlike the Spider though the stock version will mount missile hard points as a backup.

Edited by Shadey99, 12 August 2013 - 07:07 AM.

[Roadbuster]

I agree that the role which should be filled by the light mechs needs a big buff.

Scouting, tagging, distracting (not by capping) and supporting.

While I don't like light mech pilots who just rush forward and brawl with the opponent, I can't blame them. Because that's where the XP and CB come from.
Scouting and tagging requires actions of other teammates to give any reward.

Maybe it would be an idea to give scouting mechs rewards for exploring the map. The more they see (with a limited radius) and uncover (like a fog of war) the more they get as reward.


I also agree on the point that speed needs a tweak.
I'd rather slow down the other mechs instead of increasing the speed of light mechs.
At 150kph they are quite fast already and I bet making them faster will create more problems with HSR and hit registration than we already have.
Instead tweak the speed of the mechs between Atlas and Spider.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 August 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

Works better on a Jenner St.

I'm sure it does, but I'm not a fan of Jenners. Now my sweet little 'mandos on the other hand...

Shadey99, on 12 August 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

Weapons also fire at least twice as quickly (or in the case of the AC2 20 times faster), so really the threat hasn't changed that much. PPC lights or even LRM lights acting in concert with fast strikers make a world of hurt. Especially if they got in behind the enemy, my Cicada 3M ninja Sniper has pulled off some terrifying 5 kill matches, with 3 assists before (& yes I know it's not a light, but it uses alot of the same tactics as one).

A Panther in TT could strip the armour clean off a light 'mech in one hit. That's what I'm talking about, the raw single-hit punch of it (much like the AC/20 could take a light 'mech's head off in a single hit). Sure, firing twice as often against double armour makes the weapon deal as much damage over time, but it reduces the impact a single hit has - the AC/20 was truly a terrifying weapon in TT, capable of devastating damage in a single hit, and the PPC was devastating as well AND had the range to really frighten people.

The Panther was (one of?) the only light 'mech to mount as powerful a weapon as the PPC; at least until the Hollander came along with its Gauss Rifle in 3054.

Shadey99, on 12 August 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

But our Panther could look more like a Incubus (Vixen) clan mech than it's typical designs.

The possible MWO Panther will look nothing like the TT designs - like all our other 'mechs it'll be blinged out with tier 2 equipment up the wazoo, running faster, cooler, and with more firepower than any TT Panther could ever dream of.

[DemonRaziel]

Firefly, Firestarter - both of these would, in my opinion, be interesting additions for the Light pilots.

A 30t 'Mech with jump jets and missile hard points would be a fine alternative to the energy-only Spiders
A 35t humanoid 'Mech (this category only has chicken walkers right now) with JJs and either an insane amount of energy hard points or some ballistic/missile hard points in addition to energy ones? Can't say I don't like the sound of it...

And while I personally don't care one bit for the slow-moving trash can, but it seems it has enough fans around here.

They could have given us one of these when they had to push the Flea due to MASC issues and most of ligth 'Mech {Noble MechWarriors} would be happy.

And while both the Flea and the Locust will have hard time utilizing all their hard points and upgrades at the same time, the energy heavy variants should be able to do it. Also, there is enough variants to provide for a good variety of builds. I'm sure the community will find uses for the tiniest of tiny and make sure they are not DOA (although most likely not suitable at all for competitive gameplay). Not any more than their heavier brethren in the Light category, at least.

Edited by DemonRaziel, 12 August 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[Asakara]

MonkeyCheese, on 11 August 2013 - 01:57 AM, said:

...

Round 6 (Current)
Missing Light mech and no the flea dosnt go here, Kintaro, Most likely the Orion, to be announced Assault mech (King Crab yes?)

...

Thoughts and further discussion anyone?

On a side note, I suspect the next assault may be the Banshee:

http://mwomercs.com/...ere-with-bonus/

FTA by Garth on 27 March 2012:

Bonus - what's your favourite listed 95 ton 'Mech?
Banshee (1135 votes [57.50%] - View)
Banshee BNC-3E (631 votes [31.97%] - View)
BNC-3E (208 votes [10.54%] - View)

[Darius Deadeye]

Amusing how another poster on this very same page is complaining that lights are too good, too useful and too op. Then this. I'm confused.