195 replies to this topic

[Bilbo]

Lyoto Machida, on 13 August 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

How about just raising PPC heat back to where it was and not bringing Gauss into this mess?

I think then you go from useful to never used again. They are on the ragged edge now, I think, if you want to carry more than one.

[Dimento Graven]

FatBabyThompkins, on 13 August 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Expanding upon that charged PPC idea...

Charge takes .5 seconds.
You must fire within an additional .5 seconds (1 second from when initial mouse click)
Start accruing heat if held down longer

Breakdown:
0 s - Hold button
.5 s - Ready to fire
1 s - +1 heat
1.5 s - +1 heat
2 s - +1 heat
2.5 s - +2 heat
3 s - +3 heat
3.5 s - +3 heat
4 s - +3 heat
4.5 s - +3 heat
5 s - Auto discharge, start weapon recycle time (4 s)

Stops click-boom sniper. Able to delay firing for better shot, but at expense of heat. Auto discharge causing weapon cycle. Only heat you accrued during extended charge counts for auto discharge.

Not entirely sold on the numbers, but it would definitely give the PPC warrior something to consider every single time they want to fire.

A novel idea, but I'm not sure I like it. It changes the mechanic of the PPC into something unrecognizable in the BT universe. In BT the charging and discharging of the PPC is where your heat came from.

Uncharged PPC, you have to feed lots of electricity tot he capacitors that drove the linear accelerators. Then upon discharge as the particles gained the charge and the various components that focused the charge into a 'packet' were activated and released the shot.

I see other issues, what happens when you don't have a shot before auto-discharge? You hold on to it, or you have to ensure you're not facing the back of a team mate, and in the heat of battle that can get kind of impractical (recently got an accidental TK with a MG being grouped with my LRMS of all things (that's a whole other discussion by the way)), so I don't know...

I'll have to think on it more, or maybe you can flesh it out more...

[Trauglodyte]

Plus, the PPC is pretty much back to where it was at the beggining. There isn't much difference between 9/12 and 10/13. Granted, the ER PPC should probably be 14 or 15 but it isn't that big of a deal.

Here is the thing: alpha striking is part of the game. It is allowed in this game just as it was allowed in TT and in the novels. The difference here is that, while we have 2x the armor, every time we pull the trigger the shots land where we pointed. Even that isn't a big deal but the alphas are growing exponentially as PGI doesn't seem to want to curb our creativity. That, too, is fine. But it gets out of hand when we have no level of restrictions/penalties. Ghost heat is ok but it is cumbersome and confusing. Desyncing will work while they change the code infrastructure. But, at some point, all of these slight changes need to go away and rigid penalties need to be in place. When you build a mech, you need to make the decision whether you're going to focus on one weapon or weapon range while accepting the limitations that come with it. When you pull the trigger, you need to make the decision whether firing everything is worth the negatives that come with it. Right now, we are without those limitations which is why these adaptations are being put into the game.

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 August 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

75 point Alpha on a Stone Rhino. I could fire it 75, 75, 60 until my 3x Gauss ran out of ammo. Then it was 30,30,30,30 etc. There are a few Mechs like the Thug that could stay at a negative heat, alpha striking and running, the whole game. The problem this game has is how weapons converge. So a Gauss & ERPPC are my reach and SRMs add to my close punch. Combat 101. It is that basic.

Understood...

Now correct me if I'm wrong (Ya'll do anyways so I'm not sure why I remind you).. Your examples are heat neutral (non-mixed loadouts) and your "typical usage" example, if your alpha was connical, would consist of all your weapons not just your ranged selections, omitting your srms...

As you know most stock configurations unless the mechs was designed specifically as a boat, are Frankenmechs by design allowing compliment regardless of engagement range. That said, if /when these mechs alpha'd all their weapons... it was met with a harsh heat penalty... as it should be.

Edited by DaZur, 13 August 2013 - 12:26 PM.

[TOGSolid]

Bilbo, on 13 August 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

I think then you go from useful to never used again. They are on the ragged edge now, I think, if you want to carry more than one.

PPCs were never supposed to be easy to use in the first place though. Of course, now we're getting back to the OTHER huge problem this game has and that is the incredibly arbitrary handling of the weapons PGI did right at the very start. If they were thinking ahead they would have just made the damage resolve over a ten second period. A PPC would do 10 damage over 10 seconds and generate it's 10 heat similarly. For instance it could have fired once every five seconds for 5 damage and 5 heat (and making up weapon variants like a PPC that's a giant beam cannon or whatever would have been trivial). Then the heatsinks (which bizarrely were kept working at TT values despite the massively increased fire rates) would have worked properly and dissipated the heat like they were supposed to.

From there, including the heat scale penalties would have shut down alpha strike mechs and making more of the weapons burst fire like I described earlier would have prevented pinpoint insanity.

We'd be doing ******* off a ******'s *** and singing PGI's praises if these really blatantly obvious things had been done.

EDIT: And no, this isn't a hindsight thing. I've been bitching about this for over a year now.

Edited by TOGSolid, 13 August 2013 - 12:30 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Bilbo, on 13 August 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

I think then you go from useful to never used again. They are on the ragged edge now, I think, if you want to carry more than one.

They were not used in the past because of hit registration issues, coupled with the heat those weapons caused. Now that the registration issue is gone (or not nearly as bad as in Closed Beta), they should have at least tried to bump up heat on PPCs before doing that stupid ghost heat fix.

People carry 2 PPCs all the time still...I don't see it as an issue of them possibly going extinct in their current incarnation.

I seriously can't run a 4 LL build without extra heat buildup because of PPC/Gauss people???

[FatBabyThompkins]

Dimento Graven, on 13 August 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

I see other issues, what happens when you don't have a shot before auto-discharge? You hold on to it, or you have to ensure you're not facing the back of a team mate, and in the heat of battle that can get kind of impractical (recently got an accidental TK with a MG being grouped with my LRMS of all things (that's a whole other discussion by the way)), so I don't know...

I was already thinking of that when I created the post and my initial response was, oh great another button needed (to safely discharge your PPC). Another idea was to have a second group (doesn't have to be next to it, but the idea would be easier to function). Say you have LMB setup to fire group 6. It contains your PPCs you want to fire. Group 5 also has your PPC. Click, hold. Want to safely discharge? Hit 5, or basically, move make a weapons group activation on an already activated weapon send a safe discharge command. Or make a special button for those special PPC players (I have no love for you... =)

I'm not entirely sold on the idea myself. The good-idea fairy bit and I started rambling. I like that it gives the PPC a flavor, much like lasers hit scan and missiles spread. That flavor naturally increases skill cap and reduces the twitch nature of the weapon. It would make it hard (though not entirely) to "alpha" with other weapons and you couldn't just run around being charged the entire time. High skilled players would likely run around continuously charge/discharge/charge/discharge/charge/discharge. Maybe have a 1 second cycle time for a safe discharge (auto discharge at 5 s would still incur a 4 s cycle, meaning take control of your weapon!)

So, click-hold, .5 ready to fire. .75 seconds, realize shot was not available. Click 5 to safely discharge. 1 second recycle. No heat. Or, .5 click-hold, .5 ready to fire, 1 s +1 heat, 1.5 +1 heat, 2s +1 heat, no shot, click 5 to safely discharge. 1 second recycle. Gained 3 heat over 2 second (which is not much really).

The idea's growing on me... need more input =)

[BlackWidow]

Lyoto Machida, on 13 August 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

I seriously can't run a 4 LL build without extra heat buildup because of PPC/Gauss people???

That is one of the things that set me off about this in the first place. Founders CAT. 3 LL and two missles (either Streaks for SRM4's) and I can't fire my LL volley without incurring penalty.

Just plain wrong.

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 13 August 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

Understood...

Now correct me if I'm wrong (Ya'll do anyways so I'm not sure why I remind you).. Your examples are heat neutral (non-mixed loadouts) and your "typical usage" example, if your alpha was connical, would consist of all your weapons not just your ranged selections, omitting your srms...

As you know most stock configurations unless the mechs was designed specifically as a boat, are Frankenmechs by design allowing compliment regardless of engagement range. That said, if /when these mechs alpha'd all their weapons... it was met with a harsh heat penalty... as it should be.

IF you only used Stock configs, yes. I only use Stock configs a World events or at Commando/Agent run events. You would have love my 3025 Warhammers. You could fire either your 2xPPCs or your 4x Medium lasers & SRM6 with no heat worries. you had a 210 Engine and a 3/5 Move, but that still could get you the same mods as moving 4/6.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 August 2013 - 12:46 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Lyoto Machida, on 13 August 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

I seriously can't run a 4 LL build without extra heat buildup because of PPC/Gauss people???

Yeah that's the OTHER elephant in the room though isn't it.

Many of you have said it before, PGI is company their goal is to make money, and a manager's goal in a company is to be as profitable as possible and that typically means skimping on production costs, ie: people and/or hours worked.

Unfortunately there's a LOT more people who have average skills, but believe they are 'above average', than there are people who are actually 'above average' in skill. So when you have a few people absolutely DOMINATING in a game and they happen to use the currently most efficient weapon set, while the 'average' people who refuse or can't use that same weapon set keep getting killed by it, you have an over abundance of what amounts to, "Please change this, I am incapable or unwilling to change what I am doing to mitigate it through my own devices. Please dumb this down."

PGI, fearing that the majority of people won't like their game knuckles under and makes a change.

The change really only affects the 'average' and below player, while the 'above average' player either adjusts what they do, or what they use, and continues to dominate.

That's the creep of mediocrity, and unfortunately it got an early start in MWO...

[Lyoto Machida]

BlackWidow, on 13 August 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

That is one of the things that set me off about this in the first place. Founders CAT. 3 LL and two missles (either Streaks for SRM4's) and I can't fire my LL volley without incurring penalty.

Just plain wrong.

Seriously...I doubt people were complaining about my 3 LL Trebuchet builds. The ghost heat was too heavy handed for something so specific (PPCs).

Thanks to Dimeto Graven for actually posting a pic of the heat table from TT...I'm gonna keep spamming it everytime a convoluted fix for a readily solvable issue comes up:

[Dimento Graven]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 August 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

IF you only used Stock configs, yes. I only use Stock configs a World events or at Commando/Agent run events. You would have love my 3025 Warhammers. You could fire either your 2xPPCs or your 4x Medium lasers & SRM6 with no heat worries. you had a 210 Engine and a 3/5 Move, but that still could get you the same mods as moving 4/6.

I see what you've stated here, and mostly agree, but I point out you're not actually "alpha'ing" firing ALL weapons at once ALL the time. As you know there's a 'sweet spot' where a target would be in range of ALL your weapons, and you could 'alpha strike' at that point, but you wouldn't be able to do it repeatedly over and over without having to stop a round or two for heat control.

Why?

Emphasis through repetition:

So important it was printed on EVERY record sheet...

Lyoto Machida, on 13 August 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

Thanks to Dimeto Graven for actually posting a pic of the heat table from TT...I'm gonna keep spamming it everytime a convoluted fix for a readily solvable issue comes up:

You're welcome. I actually had to make that pic myself because the concept of heat affects table is so intertwined with BattleTech that apparently no one else that I could easily find, has EVER put it online. I mean hell, like I keep saying, go to any record sheet you have and you'll see that at the bottom right side of the page.

I easily found EVERY OTHER BT table online, but not this one, it wasn't necessary, EVERY player gets it when they get their record sheet...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 13 August 2013 - 12:57 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Dimento Graven, on 13 August 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

I see what you've stated here, and mostly agree, but I point out you're not actually "alpha'ing" firing ALL weapons at once ALL the time. As you know there's a 'sweet spot' where a target would be in range of ALL your weapons, and you could 'alpha strike' at that point, but you wouldn't be able to do it repeatedly over and over without having to stop a round or two for heat control.

Why?

Emphasis through repetition:

So important it was printed on EVERY record sheet...

That was using 3025 tech. Single sinks, standard everything. Swap the 16 Singles for doubles an keep the same 2 PPC, 4 Medium. Use the SRM to add more armor and one more sink. Now you have a Warhammer that can Alpha an walk every turn.

[Z0MBIE Y0SHI]

In other news, the Star Citizen alpha starts this month.

[MustrumRidcully]

How long did Matrix Online survive after launch?

I think it will still take a while.

Also, "forced desyncing" could be a bit like my forced chain-fire delay system. But if you have that, you don't also need a heat scale, and you have a solution that works for every weapon and every weapon combination. Just one extra subsystem...

There is no need to have alpha strikes be shooting all weapons instantly. The table top defines an alpha strike as a mech firing all weapons in a 10 second interval, so alpha strike really doesn't need to mean more.

[Dimento Graven]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 August 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

That was using 3025 tech. Single sinks, standard everything. Swap the 16 Singles for doubles an keep the same 2 PPC, 4 Medium. Use the SRM to add more armor and one more sink. Now you have a Warhammer that can Alpha an walk every turn.

Point taken, but you said "walk", how about run? I don't know of anyone in MWO that 'walks', I'm pretty sure we're all always moving at maximum possible speed...

While running, I believe that 'mech would build up heat, slowly, but it would build up, and eventually it'd need to stop firing or start risking the ill affects of the Heat Affects table, and certainly the pilot would stop/slow down, WELL before risking shut down, unlike MWO.

Z0MBIE Y0SHI, on 13 August 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

In other news, the Star Citizen alpha starts this month.

WOOT WOOT FOR KILLIN' CATS!!!

[MadcatX]

Z0MBIE Y0SHI, on 13 August 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

In other news, the Star Citizen alpha starts this month.

So I can go from one unfinished game to another?

[Zargar The Barbar]

I for one think that Large Advance Robot Warriors should have sophisticated computer targeting systems that are able to converge aiming of weapons on the arms very quickly. However If they did convergence right, I might like it as a nerf to pinpoint damage.

However I do think that De-syncing Gauss and PPC could work out really well if coupled with projectile speed differences.

Projectile Speed:

Lets say the PPC projectile is slowed by 20% and then the Gauss rifle projectile is sped up by 10% making the Gauss an even better sniper weapon (since we cannot use more than 2 Gauss rifles on anything.) The 30% difference in projectile speed would make it difficult to land hits on the same location since different leading distances would be required.

Recharge Rate:

The the weapon recharge rate for the Gause could be slowed from 4 to 5 (or 4.5 if you think this is too much) seconds per shot, this would give more incentive to use the AC20 as a brawling weapon, but the fast projectile speed would make the Gauss valuable to snipers and would effectively decrease their damage output over time (which means its less valuable in a brawl)

In regards to dual Gauss Builds:

I realize that dual Gauss builds may be on a come back if Gauss gets a projectile speed boost. Maybe the slower fire rate won't be enough to discourage 30 pts of high-speed pinpoint damage. In Battletech lore Gauss rifles take up a large amount of energy. And when one is fired it slows the targeting computer. (this happened during one of the battles between Phelan Wolf and Vlad in the Blood of Kerensky series) PGI probably does not plan to approach targeting computer issues. However Gauss could have an interesting nerf. Lets say you simply cannot fire more than one Gauss rifle within .5 seconds. Or if we want to go further with it, lets say if you fire 2 Gauss rifles within .5 seconds then you mech shuts down due to power failure. (This could be the same as basically clicking power down, no extra cockpit animations or anything fancy. You fire 2 Gauss rifles and your mech turns off)

Anyways I think this would be a great way to fix the Gauss / PPC / Dual Gauss issues. Let me know if you like or hate this idea. Just putting this out there and not saying that anyone is wrong or anything.

[BlackWidow]

Lyoto Machida, on 13 August 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

Seriously...I doubt people were complaining about my 3 LL Trebuchet builds. The ghost heat was too heavy handed for something so specific (PPCs).

Thanks to Dimeto Graven for actually posting a pic of the heat table from TT...I'm gonna keep spamming it everytime a convoluted fix for a readily solvable issue comes up:

Oh sure, give him credit. I've only posted that damn thing about a dozen times asking why MWO only incurs penalty at 100%. And even that just recently.

[Dimento Graven]

BlackWidow, on 13 August 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

Oh sure, give him credit. I've only posted that damn thing about a dozen times asking why MWO only incurs penalty at 100%. And even that just recently.

Where the heck was it man? I spent 45 minutes looking through googled links trying to find this dang thing before giving up and pulling out a PDF record sheet, screenshotting it, and cutting and pasting this into a JPG.

You could have saved me, I dunno, an hour's worth of searching and creating and uploading.

DARN YOU!!!!