255 replies to this topic

[Stormwolf]

Okay, let's get back on track here, let's focus again on how to communicate with the devs.

I get that many people are disheartened by the fact that PGI ignored us in the last Q&A, but let's take another shot at this.

[MustrumRidcully]

Thunderklaws, on 15 August 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

I think most of the ppl that were interested in #saveMWO have turned it into #helloMWLL

I doubt that, Thunderklaws. The problem is that MWLL is not "safe" enough. There is no publisher or developer behind it. It's no longer actively supported, so any bugs, imbalances and missing features will stay that way unless this changes majorly, and that might require - due to licensing problems - force to abandon the IP and create its own. It would be interesting to see someone else come up with a new IP that shares a semblance to BT, but I don't think it can be done by a few fans.

I don't know to communicate better with the devs. I think I, as a player, can do much about it. I can try to be nicer, but at this point, it's harder. And it might not even work.

I know from other games that occassionally - not often, not regular, ynot that you can count on it, but occassionally - a dev or the producer or the community representative would join a thread and answer questions and ask questions themselves.

PGI does not all that much on the forums, and there is a lack of hence & forth, a lack of actual exchange of ideas and concepts.

Yes, these are all busy people and hanging around on the forums is time not spent programming or designing or whatever. But I feel that the user feedback is not considered or understood well enough, so such exchanges might be better than some of the programming and design time is just going too waste, since it's used to implement stuff the players don't want or need and will lead to new problems which the players could have pointed out beforehand.

[Stormwolf]

Thunderklaws, on 15 August 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

I think most of the ppl that were interested in #saveMWO have turned it into #helloMWLL

Sure, even I am going to try MWLL.

I've set my personal target for when it's time to abandon MWO if things don't pick up. Until that time time I'll support the goons to get any sort of dialogue going with the devs.

[sj mausgmr]

Just so you guys know, MWLL focused activities will be organised in the near future to try to provide everyone with the best taster experience possible, for the sake of fun, and all things stompy bots. I'm penciling in the 7h/8th of sept for an event, so try to keep your time free around that period. Also, I hope to open up dialogue with unit leaders in regards to a drive for competitive play within MWLL. It is a solid platform and contains a lot of things that make it an overall easier process to establish and manage. Expect to hear from me and the WoL guys in regards to this in the near future.

Stomp safe everyone!

[Duncan Longwood]

Pugger here. Thanks to Word of Lowtax for hosting this and to all who participated; I felt represented by the townhall and appreciate your efforts. I'm all for top-down balancing with player input and would love to have a better flow of information between the most competitive players and the developers. I will be keeping my fingers crossed that this gains traction with someone at PGI.... other than a moderator.

[RG Notch]

sj mausgmr, on 15 August 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

Just so you guys know, MWLL focused activities will be organised in the near future to try to provide everyone with the best taster experience possible, for the sake of fun, and all things stompy bots. I'm penciling in the 7h/8th of sept for an event, so try to keep your time free around that period. Also, I hope to open up dialogue with unit leaders in regards to a drive for competitive play within MWLL. It is a solid platform and contains a lot of things that make it an overall easier process to establish and manage. Expect to hear from me and the WoL guys in regards to this in the near future.

Stomp safe everyone!

Woot so now it's #saveMWLL. Sounds like a solid plan. I'm sure lots of people want to play a dead mod and that will somehow help this game. Hopefully the team working on that game will listen (oh too late).

[Stormwolf]

RG Notch, on 15 August 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Woot so now it's #saveMWLL. Sounds like a solid plan. I'm sure lots of people want to play a dead mod and that will somehow help this game. Hopefully the team working on that game will listen (oh too late).

Come now, let's keep things constructive.

Trying to bait people into some type of negative response isn't contributing to this thread in the slightest.

[RG Notch]

Stormwolf, on 15 August 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Come now, let's keep things constructive.

Trying to bait people into some type of negative response isn't contributing to this thread in the slightest.

So getting people to play another game will some how help fix this game, that's constructive? That's not helping THIS game in the slightest.

[Varrin Coursca]

I don't think this was ever about MWLL. I think the group made it clear by the end that most--if not all--of us were interested in finding avenues through which to engage. The MWLL thing was a secondary/tertiary thing.

RG Notch, on 15 August 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Woot so now it's #saveMWLL. Sounds like a solid plan. I'm sure lots of people want to play a dead mod and that will somehow help this game. Hopefully the team working on that game will listen (oh too late).

Boring. Please do be less transparent in the future.

[Miekael]

MWLL was brought up so that people who have never played it could get an idea on how other mechwarrior games have implemented ideas and game mechanics, and been balanced in general. I for one look forward to giving it a play through with all of you guys soon. I think it would add good insight in general and possibly provide good ideas for balancing suggestions in the future.

[sj mausgmr]

Miekael, on 15 August 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

MWLL was brought up so that people who have never played it could get an idea on how other mechwarrior games have implemented ideas and game mechanics, and been balanced in general. I for one look forward to giving it a play through with all of you guys soon. I think it would add good insight in general and possibly provide good ideas for balancing suggestions in the future.

What he said ^

It's ok Notch, we know you've decided to play devils advocate on this issue like it's your day job. You just carry on as you are buddy.

[RG Notch]

sj mausgmr, on 15 August 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

What he said ^

It's ok Notch, we know you've decided to play devils advocate on this issue like it's your day job. You just carry on as you are buddy.

Some body has to . I know some people would prefer an echo chamber, but that's what's going on at PGI's offices and we see how well that's working out.

[Kraven Kor]

RG Notch, on 15 August 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

So getting people to play another game will some how help fix this game, that's constructive? That's not helping THIS game in the slightest.

PGI has, thus far, shown no interest in addressing the concerns of many of the #SaveMWO types, or those Founders who have left or posted concerns or whatever.

Playing another game may not do much, but maybe, just maybe, them seeing that they are dropping players might. Hell, maybe they aren't.

[Tannhauser Gate]

Kraven Kor, on 15 August 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

PGI has, thus far, shown no interest in addressing the concerns of many of the #SaveMWO types, or those Founders who have left or posted concerns or whatever.

Playing another game may not do much, but maybe, just maybe, them seeing that they are dropping players might. Hell, maybe they aren't.

That is because the message of #savemwo is confrontational. The premise of this movement assumes that PGI and IGP are incompetent, disinterested, deceptive, poorly lead, mwo is poorly developed, and / or that they should admit they are Fing up MWO and should stop their plans and listen to #savewmo as some sort of player intervention. #savemwo does NOT come across as a legitimate body of players with constructive feedback.

I think a lot people share your belief that PGI could be more forthcoming with info and this or that should be done differently. But I’m pretty sure most people do not think PGI is incompetent or deceptive. That’s your message.

So, I wouldn’t listen to you either. To do so would be acknowledging that the premise of #savemwo is justified.

[MustrumRidcully]

Thunderklaws, on 15 August 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

Wait; I thought PGI/IGP WERENT behind MWLL getting shut down?
Or was that just BS?

I don't know the exact specifics, but let'S assume no evil doing:
Any rights to use the game might be limited to the persons that made MW:LL, fi they are no longer interested, it'S useless. Even if that's not the case, they definitely can't make money with it, which means there will never be some commercial backup to really create a solid design staff, and this will limit the chance of the game to reach a solid user base. That requires marketing, server hardware, all which is costly. YOu might think you don't need a solid user base, but when you log on to your game and find that all the servers you visit are empty, or your favorite server has closed because the owner couldn't afford it anymore or is now playing WoW [Squid Invasion], you'll be disappointed. And if you always fight the same people, you might also get bored. And if you encounter a bug that doesn't get fixed because the voluntary devs find it too hard to fix without the test hardware to replicate it, then you'll also get frustrated.

Quote

Or you know; they have dedicated community representatives on staff....

Sure, but can he really engage in meaningful balance discussions? Does he really have enough insights into Paul's (or whoever else is working on it) mind or design documents to create a meaningful dialogue.
At least the 6 MG Spiders and 3 second Jenner comments make me thing that he doesn't.

Quote

Youre just filled with optimism arent you?
Can you EVER say anything positive?

Treat him like the Advocatus Diaboli‎. He is correct in that we might end up being in an echo chamber if there are no dissenting comments. But I am not sure he's fulfilling the role effectively. The thing is, if all he can say is:" The devs won't listen anyway", then... We can't do a single ******* thing other than stop playing the game.

I think we need someone that actively finds weak spots in community ideas and arguments. I'm always that for all the ideas I don't like (f*ck hard point limitations), but I can't be sure I am good in doing it with stuff that I like. (Lower Cap, higher dissipation; ditch group-fire...) I think I am aware of some of the drawbacks and challenges, but I don't know if I miss some even more important, or underplay them.

But honestly, I think it's far worse for others.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 15 August 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[Erata]

The tone should be kept as civil as possible, but ultimately, the situation is confrontational.
They have to face the reality that creating an online game, especially a free to play video game, is an incredibly competitive market, where there are so many options out there that apathetic players in a game's community can easily kill it.

I don't have much to contribute to overall discussion or how to better campaign for better community support.

The only thing I'd have to suggest is producing guides and strategies to be posted in the New Player/Guides Forums that...

1: Explain very effective strategies to playing the game from a top tier perspective and
2: Explain the effect on Elo and why decisions were made.

It is incredibly important to never tell other players they're wrong, or suggest they're wrong in the original writing, but to make sure it's tone-neutral when explaining drawbacks.
I've found that people take it very personally when you tell them their idea isn't right, when it's perfectly fine for whatever situation they're enjoying the game within, be it within a lower Elo where everyone is experimental, or with friends, where teamwork overrides a gimmick build's drawbacks.

Why am I suggesting this? Mostly just to get more interest in savemwo perspectives I guess, since there are people who feel there are no problems with the game's direction.

I guess the ultimate goal is to show how the end game is broken to the typical player, and what they have to currently "look forward to."

[Stalkerr]

Hi all,

To everyone who believes this is confrontational: it isn't designed to be. Our letter has shared with PGI that we have concerns about how certain things have been implemented and that we are not enjoying the game as we used to. Not bringing this up, especially if it's the current state of things, is significantly less productive than bringing it up in a constructive way. We've already been thanked by PGI for trying to keep the tone of #saveMWO productive, and even if they won't respond directly to the concerns we raised (they have no reason to, really), our concerns have reached them. That is all we could ever guarantee out of this movement.

What we do now, evaluating MWLL, is all about having fun playing robots again. #saveMWO is a community, and right now a significant portion of that community is not having fun playing robots. It has the potential to tie in with influencing improvement to MWO, but there are no guarantees. Right now, I just want to give people an outlet to shoot robots together. For many, MWO is not currently meeting that need in a satisfying way.

All we are about, at this point, is trying to recognize the needs within this community and doing what we can to meet them. That's all #saveMWO has ever been about, and it will remain so as long as I have electrons to spend on it.

[Nekki Basara]

Peekaboo I C JU, on 14 August 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

I will not bash PGI...it is not a productive use of my mental resources...i made an argument on the forums a few months back that stated that this very thing would happen should they decide to try and "Balance" everything....they are losing long time fans in hordes and not gaining many new people at the same time...fans spend money because they love the franchise...especially if it is Cannon....others may spend a few here and there....but with the amount of hardcore fans PGI loses by listening to the less dedicated new players in regard to balance is not gonna make up for it...in the end...they lose...if newbs want balance set them up on a server where all mechs and all weapons are EXACTLY the same...see how long it lasts...i believe they will get bored really fast and stop playing....that is my educated opinion

I'm not sure why you're saying that it is an "educated" opinion when it clearly is not. Many of the people you see posting saying the game needs balance have been fans of the franchise for a very, VERY long time. Some of them I know for a fact to be working for CGL on current BT releases.

Suggesting that the #saveMWO group is any one homogenous group is at best an ignorant opinion, devoid of the smidge of research it would require to detect evidence that proves you to be wrong about the composition of the group.

[DOTSGEMINI]

Peekaboo I C JU, on 14 August 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

I will not bash PGI...it is not a productive use of my mental resources...i made an argument on the forums a few months back that stated that this very thing would happen should they decide to try and "Balance" everything....they are losing long time fans in hordes and not gaining many new people at the same time...fans spend money because they love the franchise...especially if it is Cannon....others may spend a few here and there....but with the amount of hardcore fans PGI loses by listening to the less dedicated new players in regard to balance is not gonna make up for it...in the end...they lose...if newbs want balance set them up on a server where all mechs and all weapons are EXACTLY the same...see how long it lasts...i believe they will get bored really fast and stop playing....that is my educated opinion

My educated opinion is that this is incredibly snobby, if there are no new players who dont spend money, who populates the servers then? I havent put a whole lot of money into this game, does that mean that I have less right to enjoy this game for what it is? An extremely niche game that needs as many people as it can get. In regards to hordes- do you have any stats? I know a lot of people are waiting till CW comes out, so they dont burn out before hand

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

Is this actually making any headway with PGI?

One point I'd like to make is that the current balance of MWO game play was based (Poorly) on 8v8 and now 12v12 is out and they didn't take any accounting for having 4 more stompy mechs per side. Now it's just HORRID. Either the weapons are all to OP or the mechs are just to fragile. In MWLL you could get beat up and still last longer then just a few seconds, in MWO you get melted in mere seconds. Maus and the rest of the Devs working on Balance in MWLL made for a tremendously fun experience once you stopped acting like a Lemming. We had years of issues, but the team fixed them very quickly with hot fixes and addressed the community about it. Also over those years we had all the issues with the game and game play with MWLL, we all still played it and had fun doing so, not with MWO though, they make us so frustrated with their stupidity that lots have just quit!

To be honest I wish that PGI hadn't come along with the promise of MWO and that MWLL had been able to continue development. MWLL could have gone on from Cry2 to Cry3 and continued to be a community game for many years and many iterations of engine. MWLL had community mappers, the dev team was all volunteer community members, and the Alpha Testers were community players who devoted time to bring MW to life in a better representation of the genre then MW4 was since it was so dated (Great work by MekTek though). PGI's closed door policy from the get go has ruined their chances to make MWO a really great game and caused the current communication issues. Their lack of true testing is also very alarming. I just don't know how any of this is going to get fixed when they seem to cater to the people who prefer an arcade game as apposed to a thinking mans game. They advertised it as such then create a no brains required game, slam 12 mechs into a fight, no strategy to really speak of. It's just sad!

Edited by Werewolf486, 15 August 2013 - 11:29 AM.