228 replies to this topic

[VXJaeger]

Why not to limit usage of PPCs to assault mechs only? That would take care of those (ER)PPC Jenners, Cicadas, Spiders and Ravens that I have seen lately and would drop amount of PPCs in the match.
And amount of assaults will be later taken care of tonnage limit, so theres no need to "fix" the PPCs.

Seems like the biggest problem is that light pilots are whining 'cause they get their legs shot off, and miss the "Good ol' lagshield days".

[Brilig]

VXJaeger, on 14 August 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

Why not to limit usage of PPCs to assault mechs only? That would take care of those (ER)PPC Jenners, Cicadas, Spiders and Ravens that I have seen lately and would drop amount of PPCs in the match.
And amount of assaults will be later taken care of tonnage limit, so theres no need to "fix" the PPCs.

Seems like the biggest problem is that light pilots are whining 'cause they get their legs shot off, and miss the "Good ol' lagshield days".

Those little PPC mechs aren't really an issue. Actually I think there are some cannon lights and mediums that mount PPCs.

The issues were/are stemming from the larger mechs carrying a few PPCs, and a Gauss. They are able to fire them all at once, and hit the exact same spot for massive damage.

[Karl Streiger]

Brilig, on 14 August 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

The issues were/are stemming from the larger mechs carrying a few PPCs, and a Gauss. They are able to fire them all at once, and hit the exact same spot for massive damage.

funny thing is - when i did it for the first time...must have been November 2012 - before the much to early start of Open Beta - i did the same from time to time...2 ER-PPCs and a Gauss.... it was extremly powerfull - but my Atlas was far away from beeing overpowered. Most the time i was using chain fire - for better heat controll and surpression.

So as said it was ok in November 2012 - but now the same combination is the new evil (before it was multiple PPCs) - so question is? What is the reason that a weapon combination was once balanced and is now so imba that they have to invite a new counter?

[VXJaeger]

Brilig, on 14 August 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

The issues were/are stemming from the larger mechs carrying a few PPCs, and a Gauss. They are able to fire them all at once, and hit the exact same spot for massive damage.

So? They are ******* supposed to do that, no matter what weapons are in use. LRM60+Artemis will do that if it has LOS, bloody 9 lazor-Hunchie, 6 lazor Jenner K or 8-lazor Bjob-1X will do that.

Edited by VXJaeger, 14 August 2013 - 11:46 PM.

[MrZakalwe]

Karl Streiger, on 14 August 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

funny thing is - when i did it for the first time...must have been November 2012 - before the much to early start of Open Beta - i did the same from time to time...2 ER-PPCs and a Gauss.... it was extremly powerfull - but my Atlas was far away from beeing overpowered. Most the time i was using chain fire - for better heat controll and surpression.

So as said it was ok in November 2012 - but now the same combination is the new evil (before it was multiple PPCs) - so question is? What is the reason that a weapon combination was once balanced and is now so imba that they have to invite a new counter?

Because back then the PPCs travelled a lot slower and in your case weren't mounted on a platform with jump jets.

[NineTails]

VXJaeger, on 14 August 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

Why not to limit usage of PPCs to assault mechs only? That would take care of those (ER)PPC Jenners, Cicadas, Spiders and Ravens that I have seen lately and would drop amount of PPCs in the match.
And amount of assaults will be later taken care of tonnage limit, so theres no need to "fix" the PPCs.

A) The problem with PPCs is pinpoint alpha-strikes, which are a problem that gets worse, not better, as the 'mech in question gets bigger. Limiting PPCs to assault mechs still leaves us in a world with Pepsi Stalkers and Gauss 3xPPC HGNs.

A world in which the Warhammer and Marauder are illegal designs is not one that bears consideration.

[Khobai]

Quote

The problem with PPCs is pinpoint alpha-strikes, which are a problem that gets worse, not better, as the 'mech in question gets bigger. Limiting PPCs to assault mechs still leaves us in a world with Pepsi Stalkers and Gauss 3xPPC HGNs.

Even without pinpoint alphas, ERPPCs would still be the best weapon in the game. They have every single desireable trait in a weapon with little or no drawback... at least gauss has the downside of exploding.

low tonnage and crit requirements... check
damage all at once... check.
manageable heat... check (even lowly cicadas can run two erppcs without having heat problems).
extremely long range... check.
fast projectile speed... check.
doesnt use ammo... check.
disrupts ecm... check. (barely worth mentioning but its still something erppcs do that other weapons dont)

[VXJaeger]

NineTails, on 15 August 2013 - 12:09 AM, said:

The problem with PPCs is pinpoint alpha-strikes

Well, if my Miserys PPC+ER PPC+Gauss+2ML = 45 alfa, which I never use beyond 35, is now a problem, what will be nerfed next when I change my build to 2*LL+2*ML+1*MPL+AC20 = 54 alfa.
Actually PPC+Gauss-build is safer to lights than alternative 'cause it requires truly accurate shooting, and a good lightpilot never runs more than 2-3s in a straight line. With lazor build I can burn legs off more easily by following the light w/ lazorbeam.
MaxPepsi-Stalkers are heatcrippeled tincans nowadays, so this leaves just poptart-HGNs or Victors as the root of the "problem". It would be overkill to start nerfing weapons 'cause couple mechs can be loaded to those butterhat-builds.

[Khobai]

Quote

It would be overkill to start nerfing weapons 'cause couple mechs can be loaded to those butterhat-builds.

Its not overkill. Like I just said two posts ago, ERPPCs are outright better than every other weapon in the game. No other weapon has as many desireable qualities as the ERPPC. It needs a huge nerf. Plain and simple.

[Brilig]

VXJaeger, on 14 August 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

So? They are ******* supposed to do that, no matter what weapons are in use. LRM60+Artemis will do that if it has LOS, bloody 9 lazor-Hunchie, 6 lazor Jenner K or 8-lazor Bjob-1X will do that.

Actually I'm of the opinion that non of them should do that. Or at least that you shouldn't be able to do more than an AC-20s worth of damage to a single section per shot.

That aside the reason people are not worried about lasers, but are worried about PPC+Gauss has to do with how the damage is applied.

The main differences between 7 MLaser for 35 damage, or 2PPC+Gauss for 35 damage are range, and burn time.

You have to be closer with the Mlasers, and you have to hold them on the same section for a full second to get all 35 points of damage on 1 section. This is harder to do than with the PPC+Gauss, and provides the target with the opportunity to spread the damage with things like torso twisting.

Pinpoint damage was more of an issue back before the oddball ghost heat fix the Devs added in. You could build a mech with a 40-60 pinpoint single section damage alpha, and absolutely shred anything you came across. The ability to deal that much single section damage made every other build obsolete.

Karl Streiger, on 14 August 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

it was extremly powerfull - but my Atlas was far away from beeing overpowered. Most the time i was using chain fire

I disagree. It is still overpowered. Not as bad as some of the 40+ builds, but still very powerful. It is an easy, and efficient way to do damage. So easy, and so efficient that it makes just about any other build for a variant obsolete.

There is no issue with the build itself when you are using chain fire. The Issue is not the weapons themselves, or the number of them on a mech. It is being able to fire them all at once and hit the same section.

Karl Streiger, on 14 August 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

So as said it was ok in November 2012 - but now the same combination is the new evil (before it was multiple PPCs) - so question is? What is the reason that a weapon combination was once balanced and is now so imba that they have to invite a new counter?

Way back when you didn't see it much because PPCs were hotter, and both PPC and Gauss moved at different speeds. So it was hotter, and it was hard to get all 35 points of damage on the same spot.

Edit: Sorry 1 more thing. Also while 2PPC+Gauss is the big issue right now there is a big chance it will get worse with future mechs. Mechs like Direwolves, and Annihilators will be able to mount 2PPCs+2Gauss. If Clan weapons do more damage than their IS counter parts then that will make the issue worse as well.

Edited by Brilig, 15 August 2013 - 01:01 AM.

[Thirdstar]

Brilig, on 15 August 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

Edit: Sorry 1 more thing. Also while 2PPC+Gauss is the big issue right now there is a big chance it will get worse with future mechs. Mechs like Direwolves, and Annihilators will be able to mount 2PPCs+2Gauss. If Clan weapons do more damage than their IS counter parts then that will make the issue worse as well.

The introduction of Clan weaponry will break whatever little balance this game has over its knee. PGI will probably try to balance that around economy and then people will wish they had only old R&R to deal with.

[VXJaeger]

Khobai, on 15 August 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

It needs a huge nerf. Plain and simple.

Whatever, we're stuck into endless QQ & nerf spiral here, and in the end this game will be somekinda hifi-arcade-ADHD shooter with taste of Pacman and DNF And this just because everything must be equal ****, and players are too lazy to really L2P and whine instead. I just wonder what will be nerfed next if PPCs are.

[Brilig]

Thirdstar, on 15 August 2013 - 01:13 AM, said:

The introduction of Clan weaponry will break whatever little balance this game has over its knee. PGI will probably try to balance that around economy and then people will wish they had only old R&R to deal with.

The introduction of clan stuff scares me as well.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 August 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

Replacing an Engine= a base of 6 hours. I would assume replacing a Standard with an XL would take longer. Replacing the MG with a Gauss Stats at 2 hours. Do Remember though, The Master rules even though Updated, Have been superseded by more recent rules. Why the ones in the Solaris 7 Map Pack would literally make your head explode on how easy it is to swap out X for Y. You get 6-10 configuration points. Using this method I changed the King Crab-005 into the King Crab-005b. That was my Submission for a contest BattleCorps held.

Yep, like the rules in Strategic Operations. On pg. 183 its does list replacing an engine as 360 minutes, to replace a destroyed engine with the same type, so yes 6 hours. However, on pg. 188, it lists the needed refit kits to make modifications to mechs. A class D refit kit does allow for the changing of the engines rating, but not its type (so no switch to XL) and adds a multiplier to time of 3, so it is now 1080 minutes. To swap out a Mechs internal structure or change engine type, requires a class F kit(factory). That means it can not be performed in the field and must be done at a factory that is capable of actually constructing the unit, and adds a time multiplier of 5, so now it is 1800 minutes. It even gives an example of upgrading a Jager-S to a DD and how it would require a factory refit to pull off. I don't mean to flog a dead horse, or to hijack this thread, so I will stop here. But it just amazes me that you think a tech could just basically rebuild a Mech from the inside out, replacing its engine and even basic structure at whim. But please, stop trying to use a table that reflects time for repairing a mech as proof on how easy it is to modify one. I do not want the customization rules of TT in MWO, otherwise we wouldn't even be able to change weapons without much effort, but frankly if we were going by the lore our mechs would be as is when bought unless we were clanners, and believe me I enjoy playing mech tech too much to want that. My apologies to all the other posters on this thread for this sidetrack discussion.

[Rotta]

Increasing heat is probably the answer here.

You can still play as a sniper, have the same pinpoint alpha, but you just cannot fire so often.

In close/medium range combat the PPC heat will give room for lasers to shine.

[Karl Streiger]

Tincan Nightmare, on 15 August 2013 - 01:19 AM, said:

Yep, like the rules in Strategic Operations. On pg. 183 its does list replacing an engine as 360 minutes, to replace a destroyed engine with the same type, so yes 6 hours. However, on pg. 188, it lists the needed refit kits to make modifications to mechs. A class D refit kit does allow for the changing of the engines rating, but not its type (so no switch to XL) and adds a multiplier to time of 3, so it is now 1080 minutes. To swap out a Mechs internal structure or change engine type, requires a class F kit(factory). That means it can not be performed in the field and must be done at a factory that is capable of actually constructing the unit, and adds a time multiplier of 5, so now it is 1800 minutes. It even gives an example of upgrading a Jager-S to a DD and how it would require a factory refit to pull off. I don't mean to flog a dead horse, or to hijack this thread, so I will stop here. But it just amazes me that you think a tech could just basically rebuild a Mech from the inside out, replacing its engine and even basic structure at whim.

I have discussed on the matter in another topic - depending hardpoint restrictions. Would place a link - but i think cross linking is a kind of forbidden.

Brilig, on 15 August 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

Way back when you didn't see it much because PPCs were hotter, and both PPC and Gauss moved at different speeds. So it was hotter, and it was hard to get all 35 points of damage on the same spot.

Exactly - PPCs were slower and hotter - and had issues with a delay between trigger event and firing.
todays PPC are faster, don't have a delay, should have a working hit detection (I know that it is buggy) - and they produce less heat.
So all in all.... just nerf them back into the hot slow energy ball thrower - instead of creating COUNTERs

Quote

Edit: Sorry 1 more thing. Also while 2PPC+Gauss is the big issue right now there is a big chance it will get worse with future mechs. Mechs like Direwolves, and Annihilators will be able to mount 2PPCs+2Gauss. If Clan weapons do more damage than their IS counter parts then that will make the issue worse as well.

perfect example - de Devastator or the Annihilator
2 Gauss and 2 PPCs --> or the 40dmg each 2.5sec --> it is obvious that non of the existing balance or the balance to come - can fix those Mechs - so hope they will never show up - the funny thing Clan Mechs....even when they have the same degree of OmniTech like the BattleMechs....you hardly can bring the Timberwolf or the Warhawk or other Mechs into the game....the mechs with the lowest impact on balancing may be Mechs like the FireMoth, Viper, IceFerret and Gargoyle

[Khobai]

IMO increasing heat accomplishes nothing other than making PPCs unfun. Nobody wants that.

The best stopgap fix for PPCs is to decrease their projectile speed. They are too damn easy to hit with. Decreasing projectile speed will force PPC users to anticipate whether their target will zig or zag instead of being able to hit the target before it even has a chance to do either.

Also understand that this should only be a stopgap measure. There still needs to be a more permanent fix for convergence and precise aiming.

[MrZakalwe]

Khobai, on 15 August 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

IMO increasing heat accomplishes nothing other than making PPCs unfun. Nobody wants that.

The best stopgap fix for PPCs is to decrease their projectile speed. They are too damn easy to hit with. Decreasing projectile speed will force PPC users to anticipate whether their target will zig or zag instead of being able to hit the target before it even has a chance to do either.

Also understand that this should only be a stopgap measure. There still needs to be a more permanent fix for convergence and precise aiming.

That's my argument- would make PPCs more fun to use and much harder to hit light mechs with.

This might make lighter mechs more useful.

[Khobai]

Quote

This might make lighter mechs more useful.

Medium mechs as well. Especially with the agility buff theyre getting on the 20th. Being able to dodge slower PPCs would greatly improve the survivability of mediums.

[Wolfways]

Thirdstar, on 14 August 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

I don't know what to tell you. I've pointed out how's it's objectively worse in MWO and you've chosen to ignore it while citing hypothetical scenarios and anecdotal data.

You want long range boated AC5 or UAC5 is better. If you can deal with the strange ghost heat boated AC2 is also a valid option.

None of those are pinpoint like PPC though.

I'm not ignoring anything, just basing my opinion on my experiences. Maybe the AC's are just better for me...i don't know.
I replaced the AC10's on my Jagermech with 2xAC5's and 2xAC2's and it's much better. Mechs just melt from the firepower...as long as i don't overheat first

But i've shelved my K2 and bought a Cataphract and have 2xERPPC's and an AC5 to see how the ERPPC's are now. With 18DHS they are still very hot and i can only fire a couple of times before needing to cooldown, so they're still basically useless in close range fighting.
I keep seeing people say the heat is "manageable", What exactly is manageable? Every weapon is manageable if you don't fire it a lot.
Also, what is pinpoint? You have to lead the target the same as with AC's, although by a little more.