11 replies to this topic

[TexAce]

What is your argument against a fixed heat threshold of 30 for DHS and 60 for SHS and the heat sinks only accelerating the dissipation (meaning the heat meter going down faster the more heat sinks you have, with DHS having a 2x faster dissipation than SHS)?

This would make SHS viable again, make stock loadouts viable, remove high alphas for DHS builds and remove the need of an arbitraty heat scale. People could still boat but would need to decide between constant damage with low heat (meaning no alpha) for DHS, or big alphas but extreme heat and low dissipation for SHS.

So again:
SHS: Heat threshold of 60, dissipation x per second (number not defined)
DHS: Heat threshold of 30, dissipation 2x per second (2x faster than SHS)
Clan-DHS: Same as DHS but only 2 slots (but please leave them out of the discussion)
Engine heatsinks would act the same as non-engine heatsinks, which would make it much easier to understan than now.

To clarify what I mean with threshold/cap.

Example: A stalker with SHS (heat threshold of 60) could shoot 6 PPCs (6x9 heat =54) without shutting down, even with just 10SHS. But his heat will take very long to dissapate before he can alpha again. The more SHS he installs the faster it will be. Still it would take minutes to cool off of a 6PPC alpha.

The same stalker with DHS (heat threshold of 30) could shoot 6PPCs but would be at 200% heat the same moment and explode instantly. He however could shoot 2-3PPCs without shutting down and his heat would dissipate much faster so he could shoot again earlier. The more DHS the faster the dissipation would get.

Edited by TexAss, 10 October 2013 - 07:25 AM.

[MrZakalwe]

I would vote no, personally.

I agree with improving the heat dissipation rate of double heatsinks to 2x a single but I'd also say make all heat sinks in the engine singles so that the difference is if you are low on space or tonnage.

It's the fact that the ten heat sinks in the engine class as true double heat sinks for no space increase that breaks doubles right now.

[TexAce]

MrZakalwe, on 16 August 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

I would vote no, personally.

I agree with improving the heat dissipation rate of double heatsinks to 2x a single but I'd also say make all heat sinks in the engine singles so that the difference is if you are low on space or tonnage.

It's the fact that the ten heat sinks in the engine class as true double heat sinks for no space increase that breaks doubles right now.

double heat sinks are not broken per se. But single heat sinks are totally useless. That's what this is about. Giving both advantages and disadvantages. With my proposal all heat sinks, no matter where would be treatened the same

[MrZakalwe]

TexAss, on 16 August 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

double heat sinks are not broken per se. But single heat sinks are totally useless. That's what this is about. Giving both advantages and disadvantages. With my proposal all heat sinks, no matter where would be treatened the same

I understand your idea but I don't agree with it.

I don't think 6 PPC Stalkers need to return even if they do need 15 seconds to cool off after firing

[TexAce]

MrZakalwe, on 16 August 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

I understand your idea but I don't agree with it.

I don't think 6 PPC Stalkers need to return even if they do need 15 seconds to cool off after firing

15 seconds? Not even in the most generous MWO times this was possible. It would takes minutes for a SHS to dissipate all his heat. And I can live with a stalker who does an alpha of 60 every 1-4 minutes. Like I said the numbers are not defined but could make to work correctly.

the system is easy to understand unlike what we have now and if we could win more users with it I'm definately not against 6PPC stalkers. People want to put whatever they like onto their mechs, if they see an abritray system like the heat scale that hinders them from doing so all they get is depressed and abandon the game.

Edited by TexAss, 16 August 2013 - 05:37 AM.

[MrZakalwe]

TexAss, on 16 August 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

15 seconds? Not even in the most generous MWO times this was possible. It would takes minutes for a SHS to dissipate all his heat. And I can live with a stalker who does an alpha of 60 every 1-4 minutes. Like I said the numbers are not defined but could make to work correctly.

the system is easy to understand unlike what we have now and if we could win more users with it I'm definately not against 6PPC stalkers. People want to put whatever they like onto their mechs, if they see an abritray system like the heat scale that hinders them from doing so all they get is depressed and abandon the game.

Doubt it.

Much as ghost heat is an ugly and clumsy solution it has actually worked- you can still five volleys of PPCs you just need to stagger them.

My days of 1 shotting light mechs are gone (and this is good), my days of taking side torsos off mediums with my first shot are also gone (and this is also good), the days of my torso going red from the first return shot from a near idential build are likewise gone.

For better or worse ghost heat has really improved the game.

I understand your suggestion I just dont think anything so crastic is needed.

If they made engine heatsinks the same no matter what then double heat sinks and single heatsinks could actually compete on similar ground (optimisation) occupying a fairly similar space to normal structure/endo steel (one is lighter but takes up much more room).

[TexAce]

MrZakalwe, on 16 August 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

Doubt it.

Much as ghost heat is an ugly and clumsy solution it has actually worked- you can still five volleys of PPCs you just need to stagger them.

My days of 1 shotting light mechs are gone (and this is good), my days of taking side torsos off mediums with my first shot are also gone (and this is also good), the days of my torso going red from the first return shot from a near idential build are likewise gone.

For better or worse ghost heat has really improved the game.

seriously? its like telling a kid "if you touch this I'll chop your finger off!". Does the kid know why he shouldnt touch it? No. Does the kid know why such a drastic consequence follows? No. It's a total abortion. An absolute game-mechanics fail.
Something that will kill the game as soon as it launches and all the new people start to come in. They will see it, they will ask WTF? and they will leave.

If there would be a golden razzie award for stupid game mechanics the heatscale would steal the show and you are even encouraging such stupid crap.

Edited by TexAss, 16 August 2013 - 06:15 AM.

[Khobai]

no. DHS are supposed to be outright better than SHS.

Personally I think SHS need to be buffed to 1.4 internal and 1.2 external for heat dissipation though.

[TexAce]

Khobai, on 17 August 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

no. DHS are supposed to be outright better than SHS.

Personally I think SHS need to be buffed to 1.4 internal and 1.2 external for heat dissipation though.

yeah try to explain that and the DHS mechanic to new users and see how they react (especially the TT experienced ones)

DHS is nothing more than a 1.5m tax on every mech you buy at the moment

Edited by TexAss, 22 September 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[General Taskeen]

I have no argument against a fixed threshold, whatever it 'could' be. The Devs state that they wanted to be different with heatsinks, but its different in that it doesn't work how they want it to, and it never will. All Mech Warrior games had a "fixed" value for the max heat and it worked just fine.

I don't know why the Devs seem to think that "doesn't work fine" or the idea that "heat neutrality" is an evil thing. The thing is, they put in Mechs in this game that basically were very close to heat neutral with just single heat sinks in the "tt" context.

It really doesn't matter what happens, something needs to change with the heat sink philosophy/design in MWO. Its fine if they want "skills" for the threshold to be raised, or to make mech get a wincy bit more heat per second out of heatsinks. That's fine, but what is not fine is the way heat sinks currently work by disappating so incredibly slow, and each heat sink being a threshold "raiser." It just doesn't work period. It makes stock Mechs that were heat neutral complete trash to use and utterly difficult. SHS can't even operate well on extreme hot maps - example a Spider with 2 ML and 10SHS.

Let's say for instance if the base heat threshold was some value, like "40 to 45" maximum heat regardless of SHS or DHS. That would mean something with 10SHS or 10DHS, would still have a max heat level of the same threshold. Then its just a matter of altering the disappation rates to find a better place for them. Like say SHS at 1.5, and DHS at 2.5 or whatever (for both internal/external, no more abritrary "outside" sinks do less nonsense). Obviously DHS would be "better," but SHS would not be trash to use.

For a recap:

Threshold value - somewhere between 40-45 (the "actual" maximum would be 50-55, which is beyond 100%)
SHS/DHS disappation rates adjusted accordingly

What it does:

Still doesn't allow the hottest weapons to fire with a massive # mounted - 4 ER PPC's would shut you down if fired at the same time, this is logical and canon. 4 PPC's would nearly overheat your Mech, but you have to cool down to fire again, again canon for that number of PPC's.

What could be added:

More Heat Penalities for "real-time"
Going over 100% should not damage your core engine first, it should go in this order Destroy Armor->Destroy Internals->Destroy Engine
Examples: Reducing Mech Speed when Heat has reached 80% heat levels or chance of ammunition explosions if not using CASE


I've also been trying to find out what the disappation rates were in MW2, MW3, MW4, LL, but that data is hard to come by. I can only go by observation when testing those older games.

Edited by General Taskeen, 22 September 2013 - 10:52 AM.

[RandomLurker]

Voted no. Here's why:

The heat cap should be lowered and dissipation increased accross the board. This will reward heat management and punish reliance on heavy Alpha strikes, and make gameplay more dynamic.

Second, there's a better idea (not mine): give a bonus to heat sinks placed in the same location as the weapon, so that weapon makes less heat. This would let you place heat sinks strategically to keep that ER PP running, for example. Since doubles can only fit 3 in any one section, this would give SHS a niche to fill. Think how this would benefit a mech like the Awesome, an energy boat with tonnage to spare. It would also benefit new pilots, since they can move their SHS into the weapon location on their new mech and actually be able to use it while grinding up to afford DHS.

[scJazz]

God I wish people would read the 11 million threads on the same subject before posting the 10 millionth poll.

HOW ABOUT NO!

Explanation: Go read all the other flippin threads if you want an answer!