81 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Ralgas, on 18 August 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

but if you can only return half or less of the damage it's still a pretty one sided fight. triple gauss is still throwing 22 dmg @1000 meters. same as an erppc awesome would be throwing 20-30 @ 810. with restricted hard points show me anything that can throw that kind of damage back accurately at either mech at that range. The only one that springs to mind is a jm6-dd and it could only pull 10-15 depending on how the system worked low slung arms or not, we'll see awesome hill poppers become the meta with a1/stalker lrms not far behind to smash anyone silly enough to not stick to the meta.

1. It is very hard to hit anything reliably over 1000 meters in the first place with Gauss since it has only 1200 travel speed as opposed to ERPPCs, which have 2000 travel speed.

2. Ammunition. 3xGauss already takes up 45 tons (almost HALF your mech). If you want decent armor to withstand return fire--since your mech is exposed, huge and slow--and passable agility to move around, you won't have enough tonnage for ammo to simply spam away from 1000 meters. Not to mention, non-JJ 100 ton mech and XL engine is a bad idea--as we see in the case of Atlas-K. TH comes with default 300XL and I suspect most people will IMMEDIATELY switch it with Std engine and slap 2 AC20s instead of 3xGauss.


However, all of that is moot, since unless PGI comes up with an unknown standard variant out of thin air, or introduces Arrow IV, TH will not likely to even be in MWO in the first place. So it is dumb to argue about it.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 August 2013 - 07:28 AM.

[Master Q]

Hardpoint limits are really, really needed.

There is no reason in-game that a Spider or a Jenner should be able to carry a PPC. None. In canon, none of them can. Specialty mechs like the Pack Hunter had to be SPECIFICALLY designed to carry a PPC at that small size.

[Dustmuffins]

In my opinion, you could balance the game a lot better than these options by altering the recycle time and/or heat on the PPC and ERPPC.

A revamp on hardpoints may work as well, but this would be a very simple alternative that may fix the problem and eliminate the need for a ton of coding.

The problem with the current meta was that you brawl almost as well with ppcs and gausss as you could with an SRM boat (if you knew what you were doing), and you also could tear things up at long range while brawlers were helpless. You could dominate all ranges.

If you alter the heat and/or recycle time, you will make it very difficult to run a sniper build if people manage to close the distance, making other weapons viable and necessary again.

Edited by Dustmuffins, 18 August 2013 - 07:25 AM.

[El Bandito]

Dustmuffins, on 18 August 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

In my opinion, you could balance the game a lot better than these options by altering the recycle time and/or heat on the PPC and ERPPC. A revamp on hardpoints may work as well, but this would be a very simple alternative that may fix the problem and eliminate the need for a ton of coding. The problem with the current meta was that you brawl almost as well with ppcs and gausss as you could with an SRM boat (if you knew what you were doing), and you also could tear things up at long range while brawlers were helpless. You could dominate all ranges. If you alter the heat and/or recycle time, you will make it very difficult to run a sniper build if people manage to close the distance, making other weapons viable and necessary again.

PPC/ERPPC/Gauss should have 6 second cooldown, IMO. That way, it will not be as effective in close range combat.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 August 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[Dustmuffins]

El Bandito, on 18 August 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

PPC/ERPPC/Gauss should have 6 second cooldown, IMO. That way, it will not be as effective in close range combat.

That could be a solid step in the right direction. That may be a bit too radical now but that's what testing and feedback is for!

Now if only they listened to it.

[Vassago Rain]

Dustmuffins, on 18 August 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

That could be a solid step in the right direction. That may be a bit too radical now but that's what testing and feedback is for!

Now if only they listened to it.

It doesn't address the key problem, which is that anything with sub 65 ton of gundams blows up in two blasts. They need to double structure, so you can't take the hunch off a hunchie so quickly. The effects on bigger mechs is tiny, but mediums can't be neutralized with two shots.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 18 August 2013 - 07:45 AM.

[Dracol]

Master Q, on 18 August 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Hardpoint limits are really, really needed.

There is no reason in-game that a Spider or a Jenner should be able to carry a PPC. None. In canon, none of them can. Specialty mechs like the Pack Hunter had to be SPECIFICALLY designed to carry a PPC at that small size.

So, its not a matter of lights being able to carry a PPC, you just want people to wait until that type of chassis is released before they can?

I've had a lot of fun running my Panther (ie. Spider with erppc), why deny me that pleasure?

[Butane9000]

I've offered up a couple of ways to do hard point limits in MWO using the current critical slot system. I think a hard point limitation system is much more suitable to a convoluted and sometimes confusing heat system.

Also this heat changed hurt pure energy boats the worst. I believe implementing variant specific bonuses for mechs like the HBK-4P and AWS-8Q could be beneficial. And this would only apply to mechs that have only energy hard points.

My suggestion is to give them a percentage reduction in overall heat generated and or percentage increase to heat dissipation equal to the mechs total tonnage. for example:

JR7-F - -3.5% heat generation or +3.5% heat dissipation
HBK-4G - -5% heat generation or +5% heat dissipation
AWS-8Q - -8% heat generation or +8% heat dissipation

You could explain it as: These mechs having all energy hard points use the additional space inside the Battlemech that would be used by ammunition systems to instead be filled with additional heat dissipating equipment.

[Ralgas]

El Bandito, on 18 August 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

1. It is very hard to hit anything reliably over 1000 meters in the first place with Gauss since it has only 1200 travel speed as opposed to ERPPCs, which have 2000 travel speed.

2. Ammunition. 3xGauss already takes up 45 tons (almost HALF your mech). If you want decent armor to withstand return fire--since your mech is exposed, huge and slow--and passable agility to move around, you won't have enough tonnage for ammo to simply spam away from 1000 meters. Not to mention, non-JJ 100 ton mech and XL engine is a bad idea--as we see in the case of Atlas-K. TH comes with default 300XL and I suspect most people will IMMEDIATELY switch it with Std engine and slap 2 AC20s instead of 3xGauss.


However, all of that is moot, since unless PGI comes up with an unknown standard variant out of thin air, or introduces Arrow IV, TH will not likely to even be in MWO in the first place. So it is dumb to argue about it.

it still doesn't address an argument to be made over the current sniper variants that would remain though. triple ac5 phracts and aws 8q/9m would become the meta regardless of their hardpoint locations as there is very little that can return their damage output until within 2/3 of their range

[El Bandito]

Ralgas, on 18 August 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

it still doesn't address an argument to be made over the current sniper variants that would remain though. triple ac5 phracts and aws 8q/9m would become the meta regardless of their hardpoint locations as there is very little that can return their damage output until within 2/3 of their range

That's still better than what we have now. Any improvement should be embraced.

Triple AC 5 is mere 15 damage per alpha. Awesomes are already the bottom of the Assault class--let it have its own niche for once.

[Master Q]

Dracol, on 18 August 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

So, its not a matter of lights being able to carry a PPC, you just want people to wait until that type of chassis is released before they can?

I've had a lot of fun running my Panther (ie. Spider with erppc), why deny me that pleasure?

Because your "pleasure" comes at the expense of a broken mechanic that is making problems for balance all over the game, as well as making for the non-uniqueness factor of what's currently dropping (seriously, last time you saw a non-newb who was running a Hunchback? Roundabout few of them left, and it's because of the way PGI has treated the initial mechs, constantly nerfing them via the power-creep of the new, overpowered nonsense like Blackjacks, Jagermechs, and Stalkers that can peek-and-shoot over hills while exposing less than 10% of their body mass to return fire).

[Ralgas]

El Bandito, on 18 August 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

That's still better than what we have now. Any improvement should be embraced.

Triple AC 5 is mere 15 damage per alpha. Awesomes are already the bottom of the Assault class--let it have its own niche for once.

15 dmg every 1.25 secs. with the new limits you still didn't give me anything to counter them under the harpoint limts, what is going to stop a 4 man of awesome with ams from standing out (in the open even) at max range coring everything insight other than more awesomes before they can get even half the damage returned?

[Dracol]

Master Q, on 18 August 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Because your "pleasure" comes at the expense of a broken mechanic that is making problems for balance all over the game, as well as making for the non-uniqueness factor of what's currently dropping (seriously, last time you saw a non-newb who was running a Hunchback? Roundabout few of them left, and it's because of the way PGI has treated the initial mechs, constantly nerfing them via the power-creep of the new, overpowered nonsense like Blackjacks, Jagermechs, and Stalkers that can peek-and-shoot over hills while exposing less than 10% of their body mass to return fire).

First counter point: the hunchback - rarely seen because of the giant torso hump of neuterness. Always was an issue and one that hard points will never fix.

Second counter point: broken mechanic - customization is a big draw to some players (myself included). The fact multiple configerations can be placed onto one chassis, as well as weapon combos being placed on differant chassises leads to more diversity.

If PGI further restricted what weapons could be placed on what mechs, IMHO we'd see a mark decline in the variety of mechs fielded.

As it stands, imho PGI struck a nice balance between the bag o weapons of MW2 and the only a few chassis matter restrictiveness of MW4.

[Ralgas]

Dracol, on 18 August 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

First counter point: the hunchback - rarely seen because of the giant torso hump of neuterness. Always was an issue and one that hard points will never fix.

Second counter point: broken mechanic - customization is a big draw to some players (myself included). The fact multiple configerations can be placed onto one chassis, as well as weapon combos being placed on differant chassises leads to more diversity.

If PGI further restricted what weapons could be placed on what mechs, IMHO we'd see a mark decline in the variety of mechs fielded.

As it stands, imho PGI struck a nice balance between the bag o weapons of MW2 and the only a few chassis matter restrictiveness of MW4.

This guys gets it. The argument is people boat the best weapons on the chassis that allow it, putting in hardpoint restrictions won't stop the practice, it'll just restrict the variety in that meta we see now. The only way hardpoint restrictions can work is if you throw stock builds entirely and start from scratch based on game balance. (does mechassualt online sound like fun to anybody?)

[El Bandito]

Ralgas, on 18 August 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

15 dmg every 1.25 secs. with the new limits you still didn't give me anything to counter them under the harpoint limts, what is going to stop a 4 man of awesome with ams from standing out (in the open even) at max range coring everything insight other than more awesomes before they can get even half the damage returned?

You just answered yourself. Counter the Awesomes with Triple AC5s.

Counter the AC5s with with brawling, since they will have hard time trying to hit one place consistently, unless it is as big as Awesomes' CT.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 August 2013 - 04:09 PM.

[Ralgas]

El Bandito, on 18 August 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

You just answered yourself. Counter the Awesomes with Triple AC5s.

Counter the AC5s with with brawling, since they will have hard time trying to hit one place consistently, unless it is as big as Awesomes' CT.

So your answer is still to shoehorn everyone into 2awesome variant and select cataphracts, with the odd brawler as long as he's really good at using cover to actually get closer enough to do any real dmg? I'll keep what we have for the time being while campaining to improve the heat penalties, thanks.

[jakucha]

People asking for hardpoints are basically asking for less used mechs to become used even less.

[ATao]

jakucha, on 18 August 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

People asking for hardpoints are basically asking for less used mechs to become used even less.

Nop. With MW4like hardpoints you can rebalance practically any mech by adding more or less specific slots.

I agree that heat penalty system is really confusing for new players. Completely unnecessary complexity. There should be no such crutches in good design.

[El Bandito]

Ralgas, on 18 August 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

So your answer is still to shoehorn everyone into 2awesome variant and select cataphracts, with the odd brawler as long as he's really good at using cover to actually get closer enough to do any real dmg? I'll keep what we have for the time being while campaining to improve the heat penalties, thanks.

I think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. All I did was to give you counters, that does not mean those two are the only good mechs.

With current pathing system, non-JJ snipers (especially low slung armed ones) are too cumbersome and vulnerable. I wouldn't even worry about dealing with Awesomes and 3xAC5 Cataphracts.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 August 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[Ralgas]

El Bandito, on 18 August 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

I think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. All I did was to give you counters, that does not mean those two are the only good mechs.

With current pathing system, non-JJ snipers (especially low slung armed ones) are too cumbersome and vulnerable. I wouldn't even worry about dealing with Awesomes and Catas.

Except you didn't give any counters, juat a snide comment that i answered myself. Noone here will adress canon boats that fit the current meta, they just gloss over the point and move on. I'm pointing out a real issue with the implentation of hardpoint restrictions using already released mechs. Not some "ooh, if they go this way or release this mech" boogeyman. As for cumbersome and low slung hardpoints, it never stopped the illya from being good, and once again you're ignoring the limits the hardpoint restrictons are placing on their current ingame competition

Edited by Ralgas, 18 August 2013 - 06:22 PM.