81 replies to this topic

[AnarchyBurger]

I just cannot get behind the heat system, it is wrong from way to many perspectives. Not really a fan of the hardpoint system either but its miles better than the stupid heat system.

[Belorion]

Just say no to MW4 style hardpoint limitations.

[OznerpaG]

i'm all for hardpoints over phantom heat, but it has to be very simple. weapon placement could stay the same as it is now, but instead of what is called 'hardpoint restrictions' should be called 'hardpoint slots' - if you have 4 energy hardpoint slots on an arm, that means you can fit 4 S/MLas, or 2 LLas, or 1 PPC + 1 S/MLas. if you have 8 ballistic slots in a torso, that means you can fit 1 gauss and an MG/AC2, or 2 AC5s, or 8 MG/AC2.

slots can also be used to limit crazy weapons on the smaller mechs. right now one of my jenner arms has 1 ERPPC and 1 MLas to occupy my 2 'hardpoint restrictions', but if there were only 2 'hardpoint slots' on that arm i could only have 2 S/MLas or 1 LLas - but no PPCs

my only regret if this was instituted would be the likely loss of our beloved AC20 Raven, which is always a treat to see in action haha

[Belorion]

Did you know you can make a 8xSSRM 2 Catapult in MW4?

[El Bandito]

Ralgas, on 18 August 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Except you didn't give any counters, juat a snide comment that i answered myself. Noone here will adress canon boats that fit the current meta, they just gloss over the point and move on. I'm pointing out a real issue with the implentation of hardpoint restrictions using already released mechs. Not some "ooh, if they go this way or release this mech" boogeyman. As for cumbersome and low slung hardpoints, it never stopped the illya from being good, and once again you're ignoring the limits the hardpoint restrictons are placing on their current ingame competition

Ilya was at its best pre-snipe meta. Not currently. I eat Ilyas for breakfast with my snipers or brawlers.

Besides, you are also not giving much detailed counter-argument as well.

It is a bloody waste of time to talk to you. Think what you will.

Belorion, on 18 August 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

Did you know you can make a 8xSSRM 2 Catapult in MW4?

Correction. 8xSSRM4.

However, that is only because you can fit multiple smaller weapons in a single large slot. You won't be able to do that in MWO. Besides, 15 damage CERPPC and no minimum range CLRM20 will be far superior than CSSRMs.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 August 2013 - 07:53 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

El Bandito, on 18 August 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Ilya was at its best pre-snipe meta. Not currently. I eat Ilyas for breakfast with my snipers or brawlers. Besides, you are also not giving much detailed counter-argument as well. It is a bloody waste of time to talk to you. Think what you will. Correction. 8xSSRM4. However, that is only because you can fit multiple smaller weapons in a single large slot. You won't be able to do that in MWO.

If you can't equip multiple weapons in that slot - what can you customize at all?

Let's take a mech like the K2. I have 2 energy slots that can house a PPC, 2 energy slots that house a medium laser, and 2 ballistic slots that house an MG.
Can the MG be replaced with AC/2, or is that too large/heavy?
If it can't, what do I do with my PPC slots? I can equip ER PPCs, okay, but what else? If I equip a LL, what do I do with the 4 tons freed up? Equip MPLs? Still leaves me 2 tons free. Equip more sinks, just as I lowered my heat producting by downgrading for PPC to LL? More MG ammo? A bigger engine?

That doesn't sound like much customziation being left to me. It's already bad enough that the K2 can not really do much with those arms in the first place. It despereately needs 2 energy slots in each arm so you have some more meaningful energy choices and still preserve the "feel" of the chassis (which is "most of my firepower is in the arms, and it's energy based.")

[Karl Streiger]

As it was said several times, the phantom heat as well as a hardpoint solution are no balance tools.
Reason is simple - there are Mech in Cannon that don't give a damn for phantom heat (because only some serious multiplicators will prevent a Thunder Hawk to fire its 3 Gauss Rifles)
Same goes for Hardpoint Restrictions - a Mech able to carry 4 AC 10s or 3 GaussRifle is not possible to "balance" with hardpoints.

Find a way to balance the Annihilator or the Thunder Hawk - than you can balance the game. Simple isn't it?

[EvilCow]

Karl Streiger, on 19 August 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

hardpoint solution are no balance tools.

Hardpoints are a balance tool regardless how much times the contrary is stated.

Annihilators are meant to be AC boats so let them be, same for Awesomes, Archers, Warhawk, Novacats etc

The point is not to prevent boating but to limit it to mechs meant to carry a certain loadout.

Effects of boating on those FEW specific mechs can then be addressed in other ways without affecting the other mechs (non boats) in doing so.

Edited by EvilCow, 19 August 2013 - 04:16 AM.

[MrZakalwe]

Hate to say it guys but phantom heat has mostly worked.

When I first read the idea I thought it was awful then I saw it in play and it was actually doing its job.

Doesn't solve 2xPPC+Gauss but that's more or less the last thing on the list.

Big alphas are gone and we managed to retain build flexibility.

[MustrumRidcully]

EvilCow, on 19 August 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

Hardpoints are a balance tool regardless how much times the contrary is stated.

Annihilators are meant to be AC boats so let them be, same for Awesomes, Archers, Warhawk, Novacats etc

So, what do they pay for being AC Boats (or PPC boats, or Gauss boats, or whatever) that they are balanced against mechs with the same tonnage that cannot do it and must use less effective weapon combos?

Would you do anything to ensure that they don't pay this price if they use less powerful weapon combos?

[A banana in the tailpipe]

hashinshin, on 16 August 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

There's no way to see in game what it is. If I was a new player to mechwarrior I'd probably go "I should add as many PPCs as I can to my mech!" and then I'd overheat and kill myself and have no idea why.

Watching that Heat meter turn from green, to yellow, to red, along with all the blinking lights and alarm bells going off, then BOOM should be a pretty clear indication to any player of ANY caliber they did something wrong. Trial and error is a beautiful thing, even when it costs you a customer or two.

[MrZakalwe]

lockwoodx, on 19 August 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Watching that Heat meter turn from green, to yellow, to red, along with all the blinking lights and alarm bells going off, then BOOM should be a pretty clear indication to any player of ANY caliber they did something wrong. Trial and error is a beautiful thing, even when it costs you a customer or two.

meh the only real problem with the ghost heat system is that they don't tell anybody about it in game

Some in game way of knowing it exists and exactly what it does would be good.

[El Bandito]

MustrumRidcully, on 19 August 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

If you can't equip multiple weapons in that slot - what can you customize at all? Let's take a mech like the K2. I have 2 energy slots that can house a PPC, 2 energy slots that house a medium laser, and 2 ballistic slots that house an MG. Can the MG be replaced with AC/2, or is that too large/heavy? If it can't, what do I do with my PPC slots? I can equip ER PPCs, okay, but what else? If I equip a LL, what do I do with the 4 tons freed up? Equip MPLs? Still leaves me 2 tons free. Equip more sinks, just as I lowered my heat producting by downgrading for PPC to LL? More MG ammo? A bigger engine? That doesn't sound like much customziation being left to me. It's already bad enough that the K2 can not really do much with those arms in the first place. It despereately needs 2 energy slots in each arm so you have some more meaningful energy choices and still preserve the "feel" of the chassis (which is "most of my firepower is in the arms, and it's energy based.")

1. I think AC2 and MG should share same sized slots (small).

2. K2 suffers from early mech syndrome--less hardpoints. I expect PGI to add more hardpoints IF they choose to use restricted hardpoint path.
For example, adding another small or medium energy point in the arms so it can carry 4 LLasers or 2 LPL and 2MPL in the arms but NO 4 PPCs.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 August 2013 - 06:39 AM.

[El Bandito]

Karl Streiger, on 19 August 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

As it was said several times, the phantom heat as well as a hardpoint solution are no balance tools. Reason is simple - there are Mech in Cannon that don't give a damn for phantom heat (because only some serious multiplicators will prevent a Thunder Hawk to fire its 3 Gauss Rifles) Same goes for Hardpoint Restrictions - a Mech able to carry 4 AC 10s or 3 GaussRifle is not possible to "balance" with hardpoints. Find a way to balance the Annihilator or the Thunder Hawk - than you can balance the game. Simple isn't it?

Can we please stop talking about the Thunder Hawk? That mech has long way to go before getting released, if at all. Longer than the hypothetically OP SSRM6, longer than CW or Clans due to not having enough variants..

Edited by El Bandito, 19 August 2013 - 06:42 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

MrZakalwe, on 19 August 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

meh the only real problem with the ghost heat system is that they don't tell anybody about it in game

Some in game way of knowing it exists and exactly what it does would be good.

Higher skilled players are upset by this because they can't crunch numbers. Casual players don't wonder why they "blew up" other than simply through trial and error. It's the same concept as a player learning that some planets are hotter than others, and adjusting their rotations accordingly. If players were "aware" of this phantom heat, everyone would adjust and it would become the norm. Since the game revolves around so few variables (speed, heat, position) it really is that easy to "game the system" and PGI needs a "dial" they can adjust silently to play with numbers so when things to work correctly they can tell everyone they've been tweaking it all along. Hard numbers create facts, and facts are your worst enemy when trying to take someone else's money because they can be used against you.

[Karl Streiger]

El Bandito, on 19 August 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

1. I think AC2 and MG should share same sized slots (small).

2. K2 suffers from early mech syndrome--less hardpoints. I expect PGI to add more hardpoints IF they choose to use restricted hardpoint path.
For example, adding another small or medium energy point in the arms so it can carry 4 LLasers or 2 LPL and 2MPL in the arms but NO 4 PPCs.

The K2 has a far more complex problem: its primary weapon are in the arms. so every primary weapon - doesn't matter if Gauss or Medium Laser bundles have to be placed in the arms.

So a hard point size restrictions will not change anything - it will create just another layer of not logic rules.
Funny thing is BattleTech Rulebooks have all you need.

The thing is called Refit kits - if you have a copy of Strategic Operations - take a look into the maintenance and repair chapter.
This - will create logic and a MechLab that improve immersion istead of destroying it - if it is done right

El Bandito, on 19 August 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

Can we please stop talking about the Thunder Hawk? That mech has long way to go before getting released, if at all. Longer than the hypothetically OP SSRM6, longer than CW or Clans due to not having enough variants..

No we can not stop talking about the Thunder Hawk.
It is hypothetically - but when you are not able to solve that thing - you are not able to solve the problems of a A1 Splashcat with 6 LRM 15 - you are not able to solve the problem of a Mad Cat fielding 2 ER-PPCs and a GaussRifle with dealing 45 damage.

That is how balancing should be done.
And I really believe the biggest mistake was to introduce to much freedom in MechLab and to much new tech before even the most basically balancing was finished (Introtech for closed beta - no QQ about Streak or Gauss Cats - or Speed Hunchbacks)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 19 August 2013 - 06:47 AM.

[EvilCow]

MustrumRidcully, on 19 August 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

So, what do they pay for being AC Boats (or PPC boats, or Gauss boats, or whatever) that they are balanced against mechs with the same tonnage that cannot do it and must use less effective weapon combos?

How? your pick: no jets, torso rotation limitations, loss of convergence on alpha, dumb magic heat etc

There are a lot of possible approaches, the point is that you have to address few specific variants without have to put limitations also on others because the slots are too generic.

[King Arthur IV]

im unsure

[Karl Streiger]

EvilCow, on 19 August 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

How? your pick: no jets, torso rotation limitations, loss of convergence on alpha, dumb magic heat etc

So you suggest to create unit specific quirks. That is by far the most useable approach - but you have to admit that PGI doesn't have shown the abiliy to solve specific problems - and always are using the global nerf or buff hammer....

The heat stacking is a superb example of things went wrong (Oh I appriciate what it has done to the game some how - but its still wrong)
Instead of adding penalties for heavy energy usage for the Stalker - all Mechs got the same threatment.

A fix for the Annihilator with 4 AC 10 could be that - firing all guns - causes some problem with reload mechanism (chance to jam - or the additional heat causes myomer failure in the arms - the arm crosshair is blurry - for 5 seconds

The Thunder Hawk or the Devastor could have some serious interference when firing all of their main guns at once - given the chance of a 10% to shut down - or causing internal damage because the fusion shielding got weak

[XANi]

Ghost heat - because when 3 PPCs are too strong we nerf AC/2s

Butane9000, on 18 August 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

My suggestion is to give them a percentage reduction in overall heat generated and or percentage increase to heat dissipation equal to the mechs total tonnage
...
You could explain it as: These mechs having all energy hard points use the additional space inside the Battlemech that would be used by ammunition systems to instead be filled with additional heat dissipating equipment.

That "additional equipment" that is put in place of ammo is called heat sinks. Making heat dissipation worse by ghost heat then adding bonuses to chassis to offset it is kinda pointless.

Don't get me wrong, chassis-specific bonuses can be fun, but I'd rather something specific not just "this mech have energy hardpoints so he get heat dissipation bonus".
If chassis is canonical "PPC boat" just give it something like +10% PPC range or -10% PPC cooldown - those bonuses dont affect alpha and DPS directly (with less CD you are still heat limited) but still are helpful. Or just heat generation reduction for specific weapon, so say awesome would get -5% PPC heat but HBK-4P would get -5% ML/MPL heat

And no "more bonus fo bigger chassis" pls, there is already little point to picking meduim mechs, we dont need more incentives to play assaults...