1555 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Gregory Owen, on 14 October 2013 - 01:37 AM, said:

star citizen forums actually are pretty nice for the most part, it's very constructive. this game doesn't have that at all anymore.

https://forums.rober...es/general-chat

I'm as stoked about SC as the next guy, but don't kid yourself. After it is publicly playable, the forums will be exactly like these ones. All online game forums are, always. Also, the game won't come anywhere close to living up to its own hype, they never do.

Ask closed beta vets how this game was then, how Dev interaction was, and what the game was promises to be.

Apply that to SC hype and "what this game will be" material.

Just the reality of things.

[stjobe]

mint frog, on 13 October 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

Welp, looks like this little issue got cleared up. Now no one will be confused by the incorrect usage of the word, "exclusive".

Oh, that's pretty nasty.

Gives me vibes of Vader: " I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

[Nehkrosis]

so, when is the deadline for buying the Phoenix pack?
im running to the bank now!!

[Cimarb]

stjobe, on 14 October 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

Oh, that's pretty nasty.

Gives me vibes of Vader: " I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

Everyone complains that they worded it poorly and don't do anything to fix it, so they fix the wording and you complain that they altered the deal? Lol

[MechFrog1]

Wintersdark, on 14 October 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

I'm as stoked about SC as the next guy, but don't kid yourself. After it is publicly playable, the forums will be exactly like these ones. All online game forums are, always. Also, the game won't come anywhere close to living up to its own hype, they never do.

Ask closed beta vets how this game was then, how Dev interaction was, and what the game was promises to be.

Apply that to SC hype and "what this game will be" material.

Just the reality of things.

You have touched upon the unfortunate reality that many of the people who blame all of MWO's problems on the community don't want you to know. The secret is that this community isn't any different than any other gaming community. Until just a few months ago, when most of my friends list abandoned this game, there was a lot of overlap in the MWO/SC communities.

For those of us who have been online gaming since the early 90s, it's perhaps easier to step back and see the patterns that develop in groups of gamers. This applies to games that are a success as well as those that fail to shine.

The gamers are the same. The only differences are the developers, the games, and how they interact with the community.

Having seen Chris Roberts speak about his previous work in person, and Star Citizen, it is clear that he has an grand vision for his game, and has assembled a team that can produce high quality content. You can see how proud and eager he is to share what he is working on, and that excitement makes the SC player base excited as well. With the release of the hangar bay module, it was obvious that what we got reflected an effort of passion.

It's crucial in this day and market that the developers of crowd-funded games communicate with a clear and passionate voice. Progress on elements of the game needs to be shared. Not in a reluctant, "Oh fine here is a screenshot on twitter, will this shut you up?" kind of way after being asked to communicate for weeks or months on a topic, but a, "Holy **** you guys are going to love this! The office couldn't wait to show it off!" way.

When a developer seems to be wary of sharing what they're working on, or perceived to be working against the wishes of the players, the same community that supports SC with a passion will turn on you. And it's not their fault for doing so.

I'm $80 invested in SC and will eagerly invest another $80 when the time comes. Unfortunately I cannot say the same for other games where confidence is not in high supply and where I am blamed for problems I did my part to prevent.

Edited by mint frog, 14 October 2013 - 07:33 AM.

[Cimarb]

While I am loathe to admit it, Mint Frog has a point. Enthusiasm from the developer is vital, and PGI has not done a great job in this area. Fortunately, PGI has seemed to have improved on this recently, but they need to keep that communication, excitement and overall effort up or this community will quickly slide back down into the gutter.

You can very easily see this in the immediate and very drastically changed positive reaction to the CW and other recent posts, and Bryan's follow ups, and then again see it slide back down after a few days of no communication regarding something so simple as an "exclusive" freebie.

PGI/Bryan/Niko/whomever - PLEASE keep the communication flowing so we can keep the positivity flowing along with it!

[armchairyoda]

Vassago Rain, on 14 October 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

"one of those game forums you should never visit."

Something re-iterated to this fine gentleperson on every forum he visited by the people in those forums.

Also, whiners/white kinghts tend to go all ++POSTCOUNT to make their opinions seem valid while (not really) masking the fact that they have no clue what they speak of and are terrible people.

The fact that there are 260k + people registered/pledged/active/not Kerensk alts on SC just means that there are 10 times the people registered/pledged/active/not Kerensk alts there than here. Thus, 10 times the whining/wk posts. I could see where you'd get the impression that those forums are "worser" than here, but thanks to my great grasp of mathmaticals, I am more than happy to help you out.

Personally, I never trust anyone with a postcount higher than 200 that's not a paid forum mod or development staff (or the rare breed of good point/idea person).

[Fenix0742]

mint frog, on 14 October 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

You have touched upon the unfortunate reality that many of the people who blame all of MWO's problems on the community don't want you to know. The secret is that this community isn't any different than any other gaming community. Until just a few months ago, when most of my friends list abandoned this game, there was a lot of overlap in the MWO/SC communities.

For those of us who have been online gaming since the early 90s, it's perhaps easier to step back and see the patterns that develop in groups of gamers. This applies to games that are a success as well as those that fail to shine.

The gamers are the same. The only differences are the developers, the games, and how they interact with the community.

Having seen Chris Roberts speak about his previous work in person, and Star Citizen, it is clear that he has an grand vision for his game, and has assembled a team that can produce high quality content. You can see how proud and eager he is to share what he is working on, and that excitement makes the SC player base excited as well. With the release of the hangar bay module, it was obvious that what we got reflected an effort of passion.

It's crucial in this day and market that the developers of crowd-funded games communicate with a clear and passionate voice. Progress on elements of the game needs to be shared. Not in a reluctant, "Oh fine here is a screenshot on twitter, will this shut you up?" kind of way after being asked to communicate for weeks or months on a topic, but a, "Holy **** you guys are going to love this! The the office couldn't wait to show it off!" way.

When a developer seems to be wary of sharing what they're working on, or perceived to be working against the wishes of the players, the same community that supports SC with a passion will turn on you. And it's not their fault for doing so.

I'm $80 invested in SC and will eagerly invest another $80 when the time comes. Unfortunately I cannot say the same for other games where confidence is not in high supply and where I am blamed for problems I did my part to prevent.

QFT

[stjobe]

Cimarb, on 14 October 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

Everyone complains that they worded it poorly and don't do anything to fix it, so they fix the wording and you complain that they altered the deal? Lol

No, what people complained about was that they altered the (perceived) deal; now they just look like tools that altered the wording to fit the already altered deal. It's a lose-lose; damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. The only way they could have saved it was to make the damn pattern exclusive to those who had purchased a Phoenix pack. And I guess that was off the table.

Either way, what do Hotrods have to do with anything anyway?

[Felicitatem Parco]

armchairyoda, on 14 October 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

Personally, I never trust anyone with a postcount higher than 200 that's not a paid forum mod or development staff (or the rare breed of good point/idea person).

There are no "paid forum mods" if you're referring to the Volunteer Forum Moderators (the ones with green fonts in their avatars). Volunteer Forum Moderators are just that, volunteering their time to free-up resources for IGP so that the game's publishers can have less busy work in their schedule. It's unfortunate that you would place such a strong bias against anyone who's been posting on the forums frequently, especially since many people have been visiting this site since 2011.

[Vassago Rain]

mint frog, on 14 October 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

You have touched upon the unfortunate reality that many of the people who blame all of MWO's problems on the community don't want you to know. The secret is that this community isn't any different than any other gaming community. Until just a few months ago, when most of my friends list abandoned this game, there was a lot of overlap in the MWO/SC communities.

For those of us who have been online gaming since the early 90s, it's perhaps easier to step back and see the patterns that develop in groups of gamers. This applies to games that are a success as well as those that fail to shine.

The gamers are the same. The only differences are the developers, the games, and how they interact with the community.

Having seen Chris Roberts speak about his previous work in person, and Star Citizen, it is clear that he has an grand vision for his game, and has assembled a team that can produce high quality content. You can see how proud and eager he is to share what he is working on, and that excitement makes the SC player base excited as well. With the release of the hangar bay module, it was obvious that what we got reflected an effort of passion.

It's crucial in this day and market that the developers of crowd-funded games communicate with a clear and passionate voice. Progress on elements of the game needs to be shared. Not in a reluctant, "Oh fine here is a screenshot on twitter, will this shut you up?" kind of way after being asked to communicate for weeks or months on a topic, but a, "Holy **** you guys are going to love this! The the office couldn't wait to show it off!" way.

When a developer seems to be wary of sharing what they're working on, or perceived to be working against the wishes of the players, the same community that supports SC with a passion will turn on you. And it's not their fault for doing so.

I'm $80 invested in SC and will eagerly invest another $80 when the time comes. Unfortunately I cannot say the same for other games where confidence is not in high supply and where I am blamed for problems I did my part to prevent.

Truth.

[Cimarb]

stjobe, on 14 October 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

No, what people complained about was that they altered the (perceived) deal; now they just look like tools that altered the wording to fit the already altered deal. It's a lose-lose; damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. The only way they could have saved it was to make the damn pattern exclusive to those who had purchased a Phoenix pack. And I guess that was off the table.

Either way, what do Hotrods have to do with anything anyway?

"Perceived" is the main word, though, but otherwise I agree (and don't even dispute why they perceived it that way - I understand their view, even if I never bothered to put that much thought into a freebie bonus myself). I do think they should have just made it exclusive, but that is just me being selfish because I already purchased the pack!

The "hot rod" reference may very well be based on Hot Rod, the transformer that replaced Optimus for a while, as he had a similar paint job - I'll try to find an image...

EDIT: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Hot_Rod_(G1) - Hotrod didn't actually have as many flames on his paint job - they were just on the hood - but when he became Rodimus after taking over for Optimus, his paint job became much "hotter", hyuk hyuk:
[img]http://tfwiki.net/me...imusCardArt.jpg[\img] (these links aren't working well... Darn iPad formatting...

Edited by Cimarb, 14 October 2013 - 08:12 AM.

[Inkarnus]

dont dare to say hotrod
Optimus for life
QQ

[DirePhoenix]

stjobe, on 14 October 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

No, what people complained about was that they altered the (perceived) deal; now they just look like tools that altered the wording to fit the already altered deal. It's a lose-lose; damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. The only way they could have saved it was to make the damn pattern exclusive to those who had purchased a Phoenix pack. And I guess that was off the table.

Either way, what do Hotrods have to do with anything anyway?

If they didn't make the second pattern available to everyone else, you would see kvetching from people that can't get it (does no one remember the "Founders = P2W" rants from closed beta?), and PGI would not be able to draw additional income from it. This way, Phoenix purchasers get something free with their package, and others can still get the flamejob at a price.

Cimarb, on 14 October 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

"Perceived" is the main word, though, but otherwise I agree (and don't even dispute why they perceived it that way - I understand their view, even if I never bothered to put that much thought into a freebie bonus myself). I do think they should have just made it exclusive, but that is just me being selfish because I already purchased the pack!

The "hot rod" reference may very well be based on Hot Rod, the transformer that replaced Optimus for a while, as he had a similar paint job - I'll try to find an image...

Or, "hot rod" could just be referencing the style of flamejob that appears on hot rods...

[POWR]

Vassago Rain, on 14 October 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

There's stuff produced, shown off, and teased almost daily now.

It's not like we have a silly little module already that lets us play around with assets, or anything.

And they cry much, much more there than you could possibly imagine. It's one of those game forums you should never visit.

Ohhh so showing random renders and stuff counts as actual progress to you? I have a bunch of other projects I know where that just gets the devs hate and derision. Not to mention that the current situation is that they're continuing to pile on promises and stuff, using an engine that was never meant to do this if they release anything in the next 2 years that's not just some decoupled, nonsensical standalone, then wow... amazing. Till then, it's just a game that's been in development for what, 2 years now with nothing but a poorly optimized hangar to show for it. And yes, I'm one of the idiots who bought into it. Do I ever even bother reading their forums or newsletters? Not really, no. No point. We're 3 years away from release, nothing interesting is going on now.

[POWR]

mint frog, on 14 October 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

You have touched upon the unfortunate reality that many of the people who blame all of MWO's problems on the community don't want you to know. The secret is that this community isn't any different than any other gaming community. Until just a few months ago, when most of my friends list abandoned this game, there was a lot of overlap in the MWO/SC communities.

For those of us who have been online gaming since the early 90s, it's perhaps easier to step back and see the patterns that develop in groups of gamers. This applies to games that are a success as well as those that fail to shine.

The gamers are the same. The only differences are the developers, the games, and how they interact with the community.

Having seen Chris Roberts speak about his previous work in person, and Star Citizen, it is clear that he has an grand vision for his game, and has assembled a team that can produce high quality content. You can see how proud and eager he is to share what he is working on, and that excitement makes the SC player base excited as well. With the release of the hangar bay module, it was obvious that what we got reflected an effort of passion.

It's crucial in this day and market that the developers of crowd-funded games communicate with a clear and passionate voice. Progress on elements of the game needs to be shared. Not in a reluctant, "Oh fine here is a screenshot on twitter, will this shut you up?" kind of way after being asked to communicate for weeks or months on a topic, but a, "Holy **** you guys are going to love this! The office couldn't wait to show it off!" way.

When a developer seems to be wary of sharing what they're working on, or perceived to be working against the wishes of the players, the same community that supports SC with a passion will turn on you. And it's not their fault for doing so.

I'm $80 invested in SC and will eagerly invest another $80 when the time comes. Unfortunately I cannot say the same for other games where confidence is not in high supply and where I am blamed for problems I did my part to prevent.

True to an extent. But still just shows the {Noble MechWarrior} attitude you have towards some guy promising you the moon and talking about his relatively obscure games from the late 80s and early 90s that most people playing games today never even heard of and most people playing games back then never played. He then left the gamebusiness for 15-20 years and suddenly comes back going "I'll make the greatest game ever and I'll do it at half the budget of games that aren't even close to being the greatest game ever". If that doesn't sound like a hoax, then I really don't know what does. Still, I paid him some money. But since there's nothing I can play, they only get a minimum out of me.

Also could you please tell me where I'm accused of being the root of the problems I perceive this game to have?

[Tank]

Inkarnus, on 14 October 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

dont dare to say hotrod
Optimus for life
QQ

Optimus?! No way... Grimlock is the king!

[Vassago Rain]

POWR, on 14 October 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Ohhh so showing random renders and stuff counts as actual progress to you? I have a bunch of other projects I know where that just gets the devs hate and derision. Not to mention that the current situation is that they're continuing to pile on promises and stuff, using an engine that was never meant to do this if they release anything in the next 2 years that's not just some decoupled, nonsensical standalone, then wow... amazing. Till then, it's just a game that's been in development for what, 2 years now with nothing but a poorly optimized hangar to show for it. And yes, I'm one of the idiots who bought into it. Do I ever even bother reading their forums or newsletters? Not really, no. No point. We're 3 years away from release, nothing interesting is going on now.

You get to dogfight in december.

[Wintersdark]

POWR, on 14 October 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

True to an extent. But still just shows the {Noble MechWarrior} attitude you have towards some guy promising you the moon and talking about his relatively obscure games from the late 80s and early 90s that most people playing games today never even heard of and most people playing games back then never played. He then left the gamebusiness for 15-20 years and suddenly comes back going "I'll make the greatest game ever and I'll do it at half the budget of games that aren't even close to being the greatest game ever". If that doesn't sound like a hoax, then I really don't know what does. Still, I paid him some money. But since there's nothing I can play, they only get a minimum out of me.

Indeed. While I do agree with Mint Frog's post overall, this is what people need to understand.

Christ Roberts has a much larger budget to play with, and a much more popular IP overall. I *loved* the Wing Commander games, just as I loved the Mechwarrior/Battletech games. I'll not leave MWO for SC; I'll play both. Fortunately, I'm capable of playing more than one game at a time.

But... Remember, Star Citizen isn't even a game yet. It's an idea. It has an enthusastic developer with a great budget and a dream, and that's a very good start... But until there is a game, you need to keep a few grains of salt on hand or you'll have a really harsh shock once things arrive. Game development is hard, and Chris's promising the moon. I've seen many, many projects with enormous budgets fail to provide anything even remotely close to what they promised. I've watched this cycle many, many times, and you know what? I've never seen - not once - a highly hyped game like that deliver anything close to what they promised.

Not once.

Not that the games are bad - many are awesome. But what you end up with and what was described in the early sales pitches? They're miles apart. Always.

I love MWO. A lot, I have *tons* of fun playing, and have all along. A full year of play. But is the MWO of today what was described in the early Dev-blogs? No. I mean, the combat is there, and it's good, but there's reams of game described that don't exist yet. MWO is not unique in this, it's normal.

If you expect what Chris is promising, you'll be very, very dissapointed. I'm sure Star Citizen will be awesome - I'm not bashing it at all - but it won't be all it's promised to be.

[Thanatos676]

I have to agree with you Wintersdark, SC will not be "the best game ever". It may be good but it wont be what everyone is expecting, i think Chris bit off more then he can chew, especially with the continuing stretch goals..